Grand
$60 hr
$1 also
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Grand
$60 hr
$1 also
Hearing 10-6 DDB and 10-7 DB also
30 active players in casino, 25 are pros.
Who is upgrading their VP payback in 2019?
Well, Grand did.
The others will be few and far between, and expect more lowering of paytables than casinos rising as we move forward into 2020
That shit's gonna get torched so fast it will make your head spin.
Won't last long. All it will get is pro action and when they pull it the place will look like a ghost town.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplay
Read above
30 customers, 25 pros.
Already read above. I've seen the movie before more than once. Always starts out and ends the same way.Quote:
Originally Posted by PIGGY BANKER
True
The Grand may be in trouble
The new Circa being built should help business
I remember one time back in the mid 2000's (maybe around 2007) where Circus Circus (Reno) had a 5-bank of slant-tops with $5 denom FPDW (single-line). A pro-team had them locked up (a styrofoam cup of coffee on each of the five games) so that no one else could get in. I don't know when they opened those up, I only know that after I initially saw them they were blown out the next day (so maybe 15 hours or so).Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimmAlready read above. I've seen the movie before more than once. Always starts out and ends the same way.Quote:
Originally Posted by PIGGY BANKER
They have tons of $2 FPDW. They have two $1 five play but you won't get a seat. Well most people won't anyways.
I was validating my parking at the club booth the other night after playing. As I was validating and about to leave I Overheard and observed management. booth guy, "They must be a group, here's the list" Manager, "Okay, Ill check it out and talk with security"
I wen back to warn some people I like, I think they were confused about what I was saying since I didnt go into detail, but I didn't stay around to see what was going happen. As I was headed out I seen the manager guy at the security podium handing him the same print out he was handed.
it seems as if they cut cut off any point earnings. I heard there was some hear but nothing too bad.
I don't get there for 10 days. Just in case they last that long, here's a question: I've been purposefully delaying signing up for the Grand slot club. If I were to sign up for the club and start playing them, does that make me look more or less like an AP villain? Not that I care -- I'm not concerned about any definition of me anywhere, but I thought it was an interesting question. I'm probably heading for a second excursion Aug 10-16 or thereabouts because I botched my initial trip by not giving myself enough time to get everything done. So I should have some not running around like chicken with head cut off time on the first trip to play a little video poker here and there.Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolf
It's really tough with me taking the Greyhound cross-country and all, as my schedule gets constricted. Plus they keep losing my luggage in Denver. And sometimes the buses don't show.
I'm surprised you didn't run into Monet there (or did you ?) ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolf
I normally avoid BusBoy fags(Lighten up), but ill make an exception this time. PM sent.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by redietzI don't get there for 10 days. Just in case they last that long, here's a question: I've been purposefully delaying signing up for the Grand slot club. If I were to sign up for the club and start playing them, does that make me look more or less like an AP villain? Not that I care -- I'm not concerned about any definition of me anywhere, but I thought it was an interesting question. I'm probably heading for a second excursion Aug 10-16 or thereabouts because I botched my initial trip by not giving myself enough time to get everything done. So I should have some not running around like chicken with head cut off time on the first trip to play a little video poker here and there.Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolf
It's really tough with me taking the Greyhound cross-country and all, as my schedule gets constricted. Plus they keep losing my luggage in Denver. And sometimes the buses don't show.
No need for a card, no points on the FPDW
In 2002 the El Dorado put in a 5-machine bank of 20 coin $1 FPDW. Tuna and his team destroyed it in a couple of days.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplayI remember one time back in the mid 2000's (maybe around 2007) where Circus Circus (Reno) had a 5-bank of slant-tops with $5 denom FPDW (single-line). A pro-team had them locked up (a styrofoam cup of coffee on each of the five games) so that no one else could get in. I don't know when they opened those up, I only know that after I initially saw them they were blown out the next day (so maybe 15 hours or so).Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimmAlready read above. I've seen the movie before more than once. Always starts out and ends the same way.Quote:
Originally Posted by PIGGY BANKER
Also in 2002, Peppermill put in an 8-machine bank of 5 coin $1 FPDW. After my first day of play I went to the booth to get a meal comp. The boothling said "you've been assigned a host." She told me where the host's office was and that I should go visit. I didn't go. After my 2nd day of play I did the same, went to the booth to get a meal comp. The boothling said I hadn't met my host yet and set up an appointment. I blew the appointment off.
On the 3rd morning I was playing when a host walked up to a friend of mine who was also on the play and said "Al, I'm disqualifying you from all drawings and special events." If you knew anything about the Peppermill the drawings were a big part of any play you found there.
"What? Why am I disqualified?"
"C'mon, Al. You know you're a pro. I'll leave your comp alone for now. Now I have to tell this Crimm guy the same thing."
"I know him. I'll tell him for you." said Al.
Little did the host know I was right there listening to him. "Screw this play" I told Al, cashed out and left. I've been disqualified from drawings and special events ever since.
Great story. I should mention that the Circus Circus play was 5-coin, if my vision and memory serve me (I never played those machines, just observed briefly as the team was playing). If 5-hand $1 FPDW (I assume 5-coin) is showing up in 2019, I think it is likely an act of desperation, perhaps industry-wide but certainly for the Grand. The appearance of FPDW is one of the odder bellwethers of the economy I suspect.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimmIn 2002 the El Dorado put in a 5-machine bank of 20 coin $1 FPDW. Tuna and his team destroyed it in a couple of days.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplayI remember one time back in the mid 2000's (maybe around 2007) where Circus Circus (Reno) had a 5-bank of slant-tops with $5 denom FPDW (single-line). A pro-team had them locked up (a styrofoam cup of coffee on each of the five games) so that no one else could get in. I don't know when they opened those up, I only know that after I initially saw them they were blown out the next day (so maybe 15 hours or so).Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
Also in 2002, Peppermill put in an 8-machine bank of 5 coin $1 FPDW. After my first day of play I went to the booth to get a meal comp. The boothling said "you've been assigned a host." She told me where the host's office was and that I should go visit. I didn't go. After my 2nd day of play I did the same, went to the booth to get a meal comp. The boothling said I hadn't met my host yet and set up an appointment. I blew the appointment off.
On the 3rd morning I was playing when a host walked up to a friend of mine who was also on the play and said "Al, I'm disqualifying you from all drawings and special events." If you knew anything about the Peppermill the drawings were a big part of any play you found there.
"What? Why am I disqualified?"
"C'mon, Al. You know you're a pro. I'll leave your comp alone for now. Now I have to tell this Crimm guy the same thing."
"I know him. I'll tell him for you." said Al.
Little did the host know I was right there listening to him. "Screw this play" I told Al, cashed out and left. I've been disqualified from drawings and special events ever since.
What is the purpose of this thread and others like the skyline thread where PIGGY BANK is listing the +EV plays right down to what they are worth? (shades of Monet). While this forum has limited traffic, I suspect there are much more who lurk (many forums), looking for just this kind of tidbit. Won't the result be that these plays get shut down very quickly because of open discussion like this? Is that the goal?
I don't care because I have all but ceased any and all machine play and gone back to my blackjack roots. I play just enough machine play (very small amount) to cover my food needs and keep food offers rolling in (usually with meniscal amounts of free play as well). It just seems to me that posting this in such detail has no benefit only negative consequences.
While I share some info (probably far too much) about how I play, I never mention specific favorable casinos and conditions. I have a casino currently in my Las Vegas rotation that is dealing 6 deck to better than 5.5 decks, with late surrender. I would never post the name of that casino, and the few times I have seen other members do that, conditions worsen very quickly, one time, the very next day. :mad: I just don't get the purpose of what PIGGY BANK is doing, unless the purpose is sabotage. :confused:
DTG had unusually good paytables before this (I know they had $1 9/6 JoB at least), and also rather haphazardly distributed games (something like 8/5 BP right next to 7/5 BP).Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplayGreat story. I should mention that the Circus Circus play was 5-coin, if my vision and memory serve me (I never played those machines, just observed briefly as the team was playing). If 5-hand $1 FPDW (I assume 5-coin) is showing up in 2019, I think it is likely an act of desperation, perhaps industry-wide but certainly for the Grand. The appearance of FPDW is one of the odder bellwethers of the economy I suspect.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimmIn 2002 the El Dorado put in a 5-machine bank of 20 coin $1 FPDW. Tuna and his team destroyed it in a couple of days.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplay
Also in 2002, Peppermill put in an 8-machine bank of 5 coin $1 FPDW. After my first day of play I went to the booth to get a meal comp. The boothling said "you've been assigned a host." She told me where the host's office was and that I should go visit. I didn't go. After my 2nd day of play I did the same, went to the booth to get a meal comp. The boothling said I hadn't met my host yet and set up an appointment. I blew the appointment off.
On the 3rd morning I was playing when a host walked up to a friend of mine who was also on the play and said "Al, I'm disqualifying you from all drawings and special events." If you knew anything about the Peppermill the drawings were a big part of any play you found there.
"What? Why am I disqualified?"
"C'mon, Al. You know you're a pro. I'll leave your comp alone for now. Now I have to tell this Crimm guy the same thing."
"I know him. I'll tell him for you." said Al.
Little did the host know I was right there listening to him. "Screw this play" I told Al, cashed out and left. I've been disqualified from drawings and special events ever since.
They may just have no idea what they're doing with VP. Maybe they decided they should be getting more VP action and didn't realize FPDW is a guaranteed loser for the house in LV.
As far as action I thought the place seemed to be doing reasonably well for a boutique casino.
Sometimes AP's that have busted/mismanaged themselves out of the game can be bitter. Maybe that is the situation here. Sort of like the ex-counter that resorts to taking the dealer job.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
There's numerous gaming-related reasons why these people suddenly put in a bunch of $1/$2 FPDW, of which any could be true at this point. At a place like DTG, I tend to believe they knew what they were doing by putting them in (temporarily, obviously). Could be a silent sting to get pics and info on local AP's.
That's why I'm looking at this from a business perspective. It is very likely that they have a reason to greatly increase machine revenue for a given period of time. What better way to do that than via promos or putting in games that'll generate massive amounts of play for the needed amount of time? Sure they may well lose profit margin during this period, but the objective will be bet.
I think you meant coin-in, rather than revenue. At least I hope you did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
I think what you do if you want to impress a potential buyer is use marketing money to improve gaming revenues by offering overly generous promotions comp benefits. The buyer will see the high hold and handle but not realize how dependent they are on excessive marketing costs.
Here they are just adding full pay machines that will improve handle but drive down hold.
I don't know though, you could be right. I know they were adding some random freeplay benefits to their players club a few months ago.
Doesn't matter what gets said here the deuce play is all over Twitter.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Whatever the cause, $1/5-coin/5-hand FPDW is suicidal (especially in one of the most mature markets in the world) since the variance (BR requirement) is so much more manageable versus $5 single-hand 5 coin FPDW (which itself carries devastating consequences). I absolutely cannot see this play lasting more than a heartbeat. If it's a honeypot (per JBJB's supposition) then it's a fairly expensive way to create an AP database (and maybe that is the case). In a different post, Ron wrote that they could know what they're doing and have some incentive for this that is revenue-driven. Maybe there is a performance bonus clause in the slot manager's contract that is based on coin-in (rather than profit or is a much bigger factor than profit) and the downturn in casino revenue needed an injection to make up for the shortfalls so that the bonus-clause is triggered. If the play ends up lasting awhile, I sure hope that someone knowledgeable will post the reason why.Quote:
Originally Posted by smurgerburgerDTG had unusually good paytables before this (I know they had $1 9/6 JoB at least), and also rather haphazardly distributed games (something like 8/5 BP right next to 7/5 BP).Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplayGreat story. I should mention that the Circus Circus play was 5-coin, if my vision and memory serve me (I never played those machines, just observed briefly as the team was playing). If 5-hand $1 FPDW (I assume 5-coin) is showing up in 2019, I think it is likely an act of desperation, perhaps industry-wide but certainly for the Grand. The appearance of FPDW is one of the odder bellwethers of the economy I suspect.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
They may just have no idea what they're doing with VP. Maybe they decided they should be getting more VP action and didn't realize FPDW is a guaranteed loser for the house in LV.
As far as action I thought the place seemed to be doing reasonably well for a boutique casino.
I didn't realize it was 5-play, that makes it more interesting.
The AP database idea makes absolutely no sense to me, especially for a small non-chain casino. What is this information supposed to protect them from?
The AP database would never be for that casino alone. Casinos are run by people with industry friends.
Perhaps Bob Dancer has something to do with this.
Axel mentioned two 5-play machines with $1 FPDW. I suspect he controls both of them right now.
Maybe someone told the techs to set the machines to the best pay tables available not realizing that it was positive for a player using optimal strategy. KISS
I agree with this. One of those friends or associates would be the database company itself. While I am not aware, nor heard from players I network with, it wouldn't surprise me if one of the database groups like OSN or biometrics was really reaching out to include machine type AP's in their databases. It seems this is the "hot" area that the casino industry is concerned about right now....probably over-concerned about, just as they have been with card counters for decades. With the casino industry, Boyd and others seemingly cracking down and more concerned with machine AP's, it would be a nature fit for the database groups to begin focusing on machine AP's as well, not because they are a threat, but mealy because the casino industry lately has the bug up their ass thinking that these players are a threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
Now that said, I don't think a rather rinky-dink outfit like 5th street gaming, owners of DTG would be the participant. But ya never know. :confused: Something to be cautious about.
With blackjack, there are games in Las Vegas that are known as counter traps. Mostly double deck games. Some of the games, players know the consequences will be felt at only that property. Others are part of a chain and consequences can be felt throughout sister properties. And some, whether independent or part of a chain, are big contributors to the databases and consequences can be far reaching.
You never know what this industry is up to. They get a bug up there ass feeling that AP's are costing them money and they blow it way out of proportion and end up spending 10 times, even 100 times as much on countermeasures, including subscriptions to the various databases, and different technology than they were "losing" to the AP's in the first place. Bill Zender had it right like 15 years ago with card counters that casinos should just ignore like 99% and only worry about the select few (mostly well funded teams) that really effect the casinos bottom line. The same is true for machine AP's. Casinos are overly paranoid and spend far more to fix "problems" than the "problems" were costing them in the first place. This is exactly what occurred when casinos began being run by people that went to business school instead of people that knew the casino business.
In my personal theory, Piggy Banker could have done this for potential kudos and praise for giving out lucrative Casino Promotions.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
I think the database theory is insane. We are talking about people playing full pay VP, not exploiting a glitch or a misset machine or multicarding. What use would a list of such persons be, especially under the supposition that the only reason they offered full pay in the first place was to get this list?
Here to helpQuote:
Originally Posted by BlackjackproIn my personal theory, Piggy Banker could have done this for potential kudos and praise for giving out lucrative Casino Promotions.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
I can only offer a reply based on blackjack, but I think it is easily relatable to machines.Quote:
Originally Posted by smurgerburger
A casinos decides to offer a blackjack game with really good conditions (rules penetration, low house edge). So this game attracts players. Both card counters and non card counters looking for a low house edge and good conditions. And even of the card counters it attracts, 95% are no threat, either making enough mistakes so they aren't playing a winning game, or are under-bankrolled to do much damage. Only a very small fraction of a percent are really any risk. So they have all this new business, playing this low house edge game and because most aren't playing anywhere near optimal, the real house edge is greater than that slim house edge number that drew all these players to begin with.
So from all this new business and revenue, there is that very small percent that is a threat. You identify that small percent, or fraction of a percent and eliminate them and you have increased revenue.
Now again, I don't think this is what is occurring at DTG. I just don't think enough of 5th street gaming, that they would even be smart enough to think like this. At both DTG and Lucky club, 5th street gaming's M.O. is to have crappy games and be completely intolerant of AP's, backing off card counters and non-card counters at the smallest of a raise in bets.
But the hypothesis was that the *reason* they are offering FPDW is to compile a list of people who play it with an edge. Once they have accomplished this they will then revert to their usual paytables...making the list useless.
I think MaxPen is probably correct that the slot director or management decided to improve paytables to bring in more business (maybe with an ulterior motive of prepping the casino for a sale) and didn't quite grasp what happens when you offer a +EV off the top game at reasonabky high limits in LV.
No. What they would do is then start 86ing those players. Especially all those players they have linked or suspect of playing together. My gut tells me that machine players are about to start realizing the countermeasures that blackjack card counters have been dealing with for decades, including 86ing, trespasses for doing nothing wrong...just playing by the rules. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by smurgerburger
I do think the inflating numbers in preparation for a sale is a possibility as well. Mostly because the few times I have been in DTG in the last year, I wonder how it is that they are even open. :confused: Since DTG opened it has amazed me that just a block off Fremont street, and it is always dead in there even at times that Fremont Street is hopping.Quote:
Originally Posted by smurgerburger
So you inflate numbers just before the sale, increasing numbers of players and traffic at the expense of the hold. The hope is that a new company will be impressed with the traffic numbers and think they have the knowledge and expertise to improve the hold.
Machine players have experienced everything counters have including arrest.
Anyway there still is the problem of what they're protecting by 86ing the players in this scenario if in fact the game is only being offered to attract these players. That was the honeypot theory. But I don't actually care, we can move on.
I'm not in control of those machines.
I probably won't even put much time in there , I have other things I have to do. Grinding out a .7% edge just isn't my style nowadays, I have many times in the past when I was hungry. I prefer a little more meat on the bone if going to put any significant amount of time in. There's better stuff if you really want it. I just wanted to spike some play on my card. I might play some more if I have time and feel like it.
It's absolutely absurd to think they would give up 10's of thousands in value as an AP trap. You are just opening yourself up to all kinds of problems. Just one dumb security guard could cost them 100's of thousands. Especially if something goes wrong and it's proven it was an AP set up. And why in God's name would they put in so many full pay machines? They could do 10 machines and get the same thing accomplished.
Yup, that's my theory too.Quote:
Originally Posted by smurgerburger
Same theory from my vantage point
Looks like I barely missed out on this, as I flew out of Vegas just before they put these in. It's even listed on vpfree2 now it seems.
The multi-line games are worth minimum $300 an hour in EV
Care to explain that minimum? They have quarter 10 play and I think 5 play. They do have $1 5 play on 2 machines. Funny though, they were getting played on the quarter denom. Most of the AP's I saw in there look like they could use a few months of this gift horse. Hope they bring down the house.Quote:
Originally Posted by PIGGY BANKER
I too am waiting for that explanation.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxPenCare to explain that minimum? They have quarter 10 play and I think 5 play. They do have $1 5 play on 2 machines. Funny though, they were getting played on the quarter denom. Most of the AP's I saw in there look like they could use a few months of this gift horse. Hope they bring down the house.Quote:
Originally Posted by PIGGY BANKER
But it's an overall interesting story. Earlier today I called and talked to a shift boss, claiming I was a journalist with an online gaming discussion site. First thing he said was someone saying they were from Las Vegas Advisor stopped in this week and asked if they were closing their doors.
He laughed while he said that and asked if that's what I was calling for. I said no--all I wanted was to know why so many pay table increases like the FPDW's up to $2 and the multi-denom/multi-plays. He said they made the decision to up many of the pay tables and so far it's been the right decision. He wouldn't explain why. He also touted 10/6 ddbp and 10/7 dbp.
They know what they're doing, but who knows if they REALLY know what they're doing. It doesn't appear to be any sort of database exercise, and while it could be pulled at any time, it has lasted for longer than most people would have expected it to.
Sounds like they are monitoring it on a daily basis. They could be running good fading royals for now. Or the players are making mistakes. Who knows? Sort of sounds like they may have realized their mistake. Took a look at the numbers and they are running good so decided to take away all incentives and monitor the results on a daily basis. As soon as they start losing pull the plug but until then enjoy the increased revenue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.SingerI too am waiting for that explanation.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxPenCare to explain that minimum? They have quarter 10 play and I think 5 play. They do have $1 5 play on 2 machines. Funny though, they were getting played on the quarter denom. Most of the AP's I saw in there look like they could use a few months of this gift horse. Hope they bring down the house.Quote:
Originally Posted by PIGGY BANKER
But it's an overall interesting story. Earlier today I called and talked to a shift boss, claiming I was a journalist with an online gaming discussion site. First thing he said was someone saying they were from Las Vegas Advisor stopped in this week and asked if they were closing their doors.
He laughed while he said that and asked if that's what I was calling for. I said no--all I wanted was to know why so many pay table increases like the FPDW's up to $2 and the multi-denom/multi-plays. He said they made the decision to up many of the pay tables and so far it's been the right decision. He wouldn't explain why. He also touted 10/6 ddbp and 10/7 dbp.
They know what they're doing, but who knows if they REALLY know what they're doing. It doesn't appear to be any sort of database exercise, and while it could be pulled at any time, it has lasted for longer than most people would have expected it to.
Reports coming in is that most everyone is winning, some crushing it.
That is ABSOLUTELY not true
PiggyBanker says it is. Didn't you know, all the AP's playing it have meters displaying there results on the back of their heads? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Advantageplay
He also said, something to the effect of, "It's worth $300 minimum per hour on the multi-line games"....lol
So I took a quick walk through DTG today, just to take a look at what was happening. I didn't check pay tables or anything and have no reason to doubt they are what has been said here. I was more interested in the people playing them. :rolleyes: I will tell you THIS much, I hope everyone playing was "crushing it" as PIGGY BANKER says, because some of these folks just don't look like they can afford to lose much. Ya know what I am saying....don't look like they have many quarters to rub against each other. ;) Maybe that is the look machine AP's go for. :rolleyes:
I am in favor of almost any kind of AP move. But seriously people, saving on soap and water by not bathing regularly in the July desert climate is not an AP play. :(
It could be that because of this thread posted here and maybe somewhere else if this info has been picked up, that DTG is now drawing the lower end AP's. The crowd that you see at all the weekly low end plays that look like they don't have a permanent home. I have long suspected some of these folks bounce around from the "weeklies" sometimes sharing ect. Anyway, happy hunting guys. :)
Lots of RICH people tend to look poor on purpose so that people won't beg them for money.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Some or all of the $2 been pulled
Singer strikes again(see above)
There used to be a little dump 100 machine casino called Duke's across the street from Ascuaga's Nugget that got shuttered. These three Doctors from California decided they wanted to get in the gamlin' bidness and bought the place. But nobody came. They couldn't pull anyone in. So they jumped the payscales up to FPDW. Quarters and dollars and even two five play quarters, and also 10/7 DB. They put on promotions, quad 5's thru Kings got a 20 coin bonus, and double royal hours. They got plenty of bidness then but not the kind they wanted. I never seen a ploppie in the place. Nothing but pros. And everybody won including me. The doctors got their asses handed to them. The place was shuttered again. Then they knocked the building down and made it a parking lot.
One of the doctors was quoted in the paper "The gambling business is tough."
Yeah, it's all Singer's fault. Who started this thread again? Are you related to BlackjackPro/Tasha/Kentry?Quote:
Originally Posted by PIGGY BANKER
What makes FPDW so strong is there is only a 1% loss rate between royals. On the dollar level the average cost to produce a royal is just $2250. And every tenth of a percent in cashback/freeplay knocks $225 off the cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by PIGGY BANKER
And flooding each deal-draw with 5 hands at a time instead of one on the 5-play, 5-coin $1 FPDWs bolstered by the immense power of this cost of royal super-stat . . .Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimmWhat makes FPDW so strong is there is only a 1% loss rate between royals. On the dollar level the average cost to produce a royal is just $2250. And every tenth of a percent in cashback/freeplay knocks $225 off the cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by PIGGY BANKER
Place is packed to the rafters
Rob, why the fuck would you do that? Innocent reasoning or not, that's completely fucked up, theres no reason to bring that kind of attention to the play. Obviously the casino isn't blind, but even if theres a slight chance you calling brought any more attention to it, well, that's just BS. THIS IS THE REASON ONE SHOULD NOT BE POSTING UP ABOUT PLAYS ON THE INTERNET. NM Rob, I have to imagine there are Dark-siders and jellouse people who would call the casino for whatever nefarious reasons they might have. It only takes one wrong person to happen upon one informational post that completely fucks up a really good play. Perhaps not this one (I dont count this as a really good play) but the next or or the one after that. I mean look what Dark OZ did on WOV. Due to his lack of knowledge regarding AP he posted up something because he knew nothing about it. Yet, it fucked up the $5 machines. And then theres some asshole taking pictures of AP's and this play and then posting it on twitter is complete BS as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.SingerI too am waiting for that explanation.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxPenCare to explain that minimum? They have quarter 10 play and I think 5 play. They do have $1 5 play on 2 machines. Funny though, they were getting played on the quarter denom. Most of the AP's I saw in there look like they could use a few months of this gift horse. Hope they bring down the house.Quote:
Originally Posted by PIGGY BANKER
But it's an overall interesting story. Earlier today I called and talked to a shift boss, claiming I was a journalist with an online gaming discussion site. First thing he said was someone saying they were from Las Vegas Advisor stopped in this week and asked if they were closing their doors.
He laughed while he said that and asked if that's what I was calling for. I said no--all I wanted was to know why so many pay table increases like the FPDW's up to $2 and the multi-denom/multi-plays. He said they made the decision to up many of the pay tables and so far it's been the right decision. He wouldn't explain why. He also touted 10/6 ddbp and 10/7 dbp.
They know what they're doing, but who knows if they REALLY know what they're doing. It doesn't appear to be any sort of database exercise, and while it could be pulled at any time, it has lasted for longer than most people would have expected it to.
I suspect the folks in this DTG Ad are different than the clientele you observed during your walk through :Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJ
Well, for the simple reason that it was posted about here, it's not something you see everyday, people are asking questions and opining about it, and it's an interesting story so I did what I used to do for GT and I did a little digging out of curiosity. If I weren't sitting around waiting for this foot to heal I may have looked right past it, and if there wasn't a thread about it most of us would have never known until it was over.Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolfRob, why the fuck would you do that? Innocent reasoning or not, that's completely fucked up, theres no reason to bring that kind of attention to the play. Obviously the casino isn't blind, but even if theres a slight chance you calling brought any more attention to it, well, that's just BS. THIS IS THE REASON ONE SHOULD NOT BE POSTING UP ABOUT PLAYS ON THE INTERNET. NM Rob, I have to imagine there are Dark-siders and jellouse people who would call the casino for whatever nefarious reasons they might have. It only takes one wrong person to happen upon one informational post that completely fucks up a really good play. Perhaps not this one (I dont count this as a really good play) but the next or or the one after that. I mean look what Dark OZ did on WOV. Due to his lack of knowledge regarding AP he posted up something because he knew nothing about it. Yet, it fucked up the $5 machines. And then theres some asshole taking pictures of AP's and this play and then posting it on twitter is complete BS as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.SingerI too am waiting for that explanation.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxPen
But it's an overall interesting story. Earlier today I called and talked to a shift boss, claiming I was a journalist with an online gaming discussion site. First thing he said was someone saying they were from Las Vegas Advisor stopped in this week and asked if they were closing their doors.
He laughed while he said that and asked if that's what I was calling for. I said no--all I wanted was to know why so many pay table increases like the FPDW's up to $2 and the multi-denom/multi-plays. He said they made the decision to up many of the pay tables and so far it's been the right decision. He wouldn't explain why. He also touted 10/6 ddbp and 10/7 dbp.
They know what they're doing, but who knows if they REALLY know what they're doing. It doesn't appear to be any sort of database exercise, and while it could be pulled at any time, it has lasted for longer than most people would have expected it to.
Rob, you said the guy you talked to said he got a call from Las Vegas Adviser. I haven't been over to his site but you can bet your ass that Anthony Curtis highly touted this play in his rag. It's been well known for years by AP's that you don't tell Anthony Curtis anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.SingerWell, for the simple reason that it was posted about here, it's not something you see everyday, people are asking questions and opining about it, and it's an interesting story so I did what I used to do for GT and I did a little digging out of curiosity. If I weren't sitting around waiting for this foot to heal I may have looked right past it, and if there wasn't a thread about it most of us would have never known until it was over.Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolfRob, why the fuck would you do that? Innocent reasoning or not, that's completely fucked up, theres no reason to bring that kind of attention to the play. Obviously the casino isn't blind, but even if theres a slight chance you calling brought any more attention to it, well, that's just BS. THIS IS THE REASON ONE SHOULD NOT BE POSTING UP ABOUT PLAYS ON THE INTERNET. NM Rob, I have to imagine there are Dark-siders and jellouse people who would call the casino for whatever nefarious reasons they might have. It only takes one wrong person to happen upon one informational post that completely fucks up a really good play. Perhaps not this one (I dont count this as a really good play) but the next or or the one after that. I mean look what Dark OZ did on WOV. Due to his lack of knowledge regarding AP he posted up something because he knew nothing about it. Yet, it fucked up the $5 machines. And then theres some asshole taking pictures of AP's and this play and then posting it on twitter is complete BS as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
Yes it was someone from there who came in and talked to them about the sudden change. They'll probably be all over DTG again as soon as these machines come back down to earth.
Just look at the publicity the joint is getting from all of this. It's exactly what they want. They know damn well that with optimal play the machines will lose money. But most are still playing under 100%. I see this as nothing more than some sort of promo to get people's asses in the door no different than sending all of the geriatric people $5 in free play twice a week. It won't last long
No, they are not.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbjb
Prove that statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by PIGGY BANKERNo, they are not.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbjb
There is an Andrew Neeme video. (I guess he is like #1 maybe #2 poker cash game vlogger). Doesn't play super-big, but plays mid-stakes. Typical grinder who can make a decent living for himself but could do it elsewhere if he applied himself. Anyway, I had heard that he put a new video out that discussed this issue of private games in public cardrooms and how they fuck everything up except for a really small number of players. (And arguably the bad players in those games actually lose $ at a slower rate) Anyway.. so I click on video and the first shot is of a 1800 machine receipt from the DTG. He talks about video poker. He talks about the bar down there and drops the name [Go check out Every Woman Band btw when they play. Love em]. Anyway, Andrew's thing looked like a paid advertisement, or perhaps he is looking to become an AP after his whole discussion of the private game situation in Vegas.
I'd post a link but I'm too lazy. Didn't watch the whole thing either.
And that's exactly why people shouldn't be posting up about plays. Anyone with the knowledge skill, bankroll and willingness to play this play this is most likely going to get the information through the grapevine, however, posting information publicly just gives the information to people who can only cause problems for a play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.SingerWell, for the simple reason that it was posted about here, it's not something you see everyday, people are asking questions and opining about it, and it's an interesting story so I did what I used to do for GT and I did a little digging out of curiosity. If I weren't sitting around waiting for this foot to heal I may have looked right past it, and if there wasn't a thread about it most of us would have never known until it was over.Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolfRob, why the fuck would you do that? Innocent reasoning or not, that's completely fucked up, theres no reason to bring that kind of attention to the play. Obviously the casino isn't blind, but even if theres a slight chance you calling brought any more attention to it, well, that's just BS. THIS IS THE REASON ONE SHOULD NOT BE POSTING UP ABOUT PLAYS ON THE INTERNET. NM Rob, I have to imagine there are Dark-siders and jellouse people who would call the casino for whatever nefarious reasons they might have. It only takes one wrong person to happen upon one informational post that completely fucks up a really good play. Perhaps not this one (I dont count this as a really good play) but the next or or the one after that. I mean look what Dark OZ did on WOV. Due to his lack of knowledge regarding AP he posted up something because he knew nothing about it. Yet, it fucked up the $5 machines. And then theres some asshole taking pictures of AP's and this play and then posting it on twitter is complete BS as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
Why give information about something someone has absolutely no interest in playing themselves, however , they're just going to blast all over Twitter and every other f****** social media platform and Forum in the universe.
Without putting much thought into it, I have to believe the casino is losing more money from the pros than they are making from the plops at this time. At leas from the gaming side.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbjb
90% of the play by pros who can play 100.7 deuces at 100%+ blindfolded.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbjbProve that statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by PIGGY BANKERNo, they are not.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbjb
C'mon get real. Most of these statements are on the goofy side.
People who know FPDW perfect strategy are obviously in there playing these machines, but NOBODY plays perfectly. Not even the guys who are blindfolded.
Lots of people like to think they know the game optimally and even more like to claim they're AP's. I believe the DTG goal was to generate enormous play for whatever term they require according to their business plan. Lots of legit AP's but also lots of wannabees. It's also not for certain they are losing money on these machines overall. When Wynn put them in at 25c/50c/$1 I was SHOWN the results after it ended because I'm the guy who got them to put them in. They overall made a very small margin for the casino, but because of the non-stop play they got, it was an acceptable profit. Their problem was the commotion the machines caused and the complaints from guests (who flew in to play) about the locals who camped out at the machines, slurping noodles and eating tuna sandwiches while playing. It was too much for Steve Wynn to bear.
They don't all have to play perfectly, but they all know how to play at minimum 100.1%, with most all pros at 100.5% or better.
Could be, but not enuf to offset the people who don't play so well. And players get fatigued the longer they play, which reduces accuracy. Plus if there's no slot card benefits then there's little back-up. Wynn didn't limit slot card perks.
It's a big misconception that people need to play a hundred percent accurate. I think the 0.5 estimate was spot-on that's what I always assume just to be safe. One of those guys can play like3,000 hands perfectly we witnessed him doing it and there's a video showing it. When I talked to him he was fairly confident keep up that pace for many many hours and does. I have no reason to believe he can't and even if he made a few mistakes here in there it's not going to be anywhere near enough to kill his advantage. Rob I'm sure you can do the math and figure out exactly what that guy would be making per hour on a $2 machine. Everyone I seen in there playing are competent good players who are well banked. Off the top of my head I'm going to estimate they are taking $20,000 a day from the casino.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
PS. I have no clue if they still have the $2 denominations available, I heard it was no longer.
The other players are far and few between, it's a ghost town without the pros there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
I just wish we could get an actual summary of overall casino results from this once it's over. My deal with Wynn was just that, along with the approval to publish the results in my GT article which I did.Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolfIt's a big misconception that people need to play a hundred percent accurate. I think the 0.5 estimate was spot-on that's what I always assume just to be safe. One of those guys can play like3,000 hands perfectly we witnessed him doing it and there's a video showing it. When I talked to him he was fairly confident keep up that pace for many many hours and does. I have no reason to believe he can't and even if he made a few mistakes here in there it's not going to be anywhere near enough to kill his advantage. Rob I'm sure you can do the math and figure out exactly what that guy would be making per hour on a $2 machine. Everyone I seen in there playing are competent good players who are well banked. Off the top of my head I'm going to estimate they are taking $20,000 a day from the casino.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
If they eliminated slot club benefits from FPDW they didn't slow machines down? 3000 hph is just about a hand per second. Impossible. That has to be some kind of error. As far as accuracy after the first hour for most humans, it does go down as time exponentially increases. I've been involved in several human factors studies, not on gambling but in similarly simple and also more complex tasks.
It all comes down to the ratio of legit pros vs. the rest. Plus some bring friends, spouses or others who sit at tables or play other slots? A smaller casino can keep meaningful track of such stuff whereas a place like Wynn cannot.
I just received an email from a friend who's playing a $2 FPDW machine right now. He's someone who thinks of himself as a pro but really isn't. And I never heard him say he knew anything about DW before this. Maybe they took some out, but not all.
If what you say is true (hint: It's not), then Wynn is a fucking retard for not adding more FPDW machines to the casino.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
I haven't been to DTG and don't have much of an interest in playing it unless I can get on a $1 5-play machine. LOL @ it being worth $300/hr. <shake my head emoji> Since I haven't been there, I haven't seen who or what type of people are playing these machines, but I'd have a very tough time believing the casino is winning on those specific games.
you are correct, I also would not consider Alan a pro, it would be actually quite the opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.SingerI just wish we could get an actual summary of overall casino results from this once it's over. My deal with Wynn was just that, along with the approval to publish the results in my GT article which I did.Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolfIt's a big misconception that people need to play a hundred percent accurate. I think the 0.5 estimate was spot-on that's what I always assume just to be safe. One of those guys can play like3,000 hands perfectly we witnessed him doing it and there's a video showing it. When I talked to him he was fairly confident keep up that pace for many many hours and does. I have no reason to believe he can't and even if he made a few mistakes here in there it's not going to be anywhere near enough to kill his advantage. Rob I'm sure you can do the math and figure out exactly what that guy would be making per hour on a $2 machine. Everyone I seen in there playing are competent good players who are well banked. Off the top of my head I'm going to estimate they are taking $20,000 a day from the casino.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
If they eliminated slot club benefits from FPDW they didn't slow machines down? 3000 hph is just about a hand per second. Impossible. That has to be some kind of error. As far as accuracy after the first hour for most humans, it does go down as time exponentially increases. I've been involved in several human factors studies, not on gambling but in similarly simple and also more complex tasks.
It all comes down to the ratio of legit pros vs. the rest. Plus some bring friends, spouses or others who sit at tables or play other slots? A smaller casino can keep meaningful track of such stuff whereas a place like Wynn cannot.
I just received an email from a friend who's playing a $2 FPDW machine right now. He's someone who thinks of himself as a pro but really isn't. And I never heard him say he knew anything about DW before this. Maybe they took some out, but not all.
I can't recall exactly how many hands he was playing per hour on two machines, I thought it was around 3,000, I myself didn't believe it was possible I tried to bet against it, he wouldn't allow it because he was absolutely sure he would win. He wasn't there to take anybody's money. Anyways, I'm sure someone here knows exactly the amount of hands and exactly where to locate the video. FYI I believe he can play three machines. I'm not even sure how many machines he's trying attempting to play there or if he's even playing it at this point.
Okay, I went and looked it up, he was able to get out 2,590 I was confused because somebody else said they could get out three thousand hands per hour. Whatever the case, there's no reason this guy can't be making over a hundred twenty five bucks an hour. That's just one guy now imagine there are 15 people there around the clock and they're all averaging about 50 bucks an hour. Now include the $1 V play machines that are going 24 hours. I have no clue what denominations is being played on those the entire time.
FPDW is an easy game to play 99.54% perfect. There's only 45 moves and almost penalty free. Where I make mistakes in video poker is trying to play to fast or my mind starts wandering/not paying attention.
There was a thread at WoV about the fastest video poker players with the least mistakes. Players were filmed as they were tested. The guy that set the record did something like 1400 hands in a half hour playing two machines. I think that's the way it went. Shack went over the film looking for mistakes and couldn't find one.
I didn't dive bomb into DTG because that play ain't gonna raise my income. I make about the same as that play is worth and it's a hell of a lot easier, and a lot more interesting, than grinding away on video poker all day. However, FPDW is one of the more enjoyable games to play.
Well whatever the case I believe it's at least a mild surprise that the play is still active.