GWAE episode with "The Doc"

So this evening driving between casinos, I listened to Part 2 of Gambling with an Edge episode featuring "the Doc". Doc is not a professional blackjack player, he is a medical doctor. But he is very serious about his card counting/AP career, treats it very professionally and has plans to play professionally when he retires from his medical career. I was very impressed with his professional approach. Kudos to "Doc" or "the Doc" for an informative and well done episode.

I strongly recommend both aspiring card counters (if there are any on this forum) as well as professional players take a listen to Doc. I found myself agreeing with almost everything he said, with the possible exception that a player can afford a little bit of cover. There are some low cost cover techniques that do make a difference as far as longevity.

During the interview it was mentioned that "the Doc" participates on at least one of the gambling/AP forums. I am not really familiar with "the Doc" from any forums. There is "Doc" at WoV, but I am not familiar with him being this serious of a blackjack player. Anyone know if this is the same "Doc"?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1HCQPpspXA

For the love of God, how many God damn episodes on gambling with an edge is about blackjack. I was about to listen to it today when I thought f*** this is the same s*** over and over and over.

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

For the love of God, how many God damn episodes on gambling with an edge is about blackjack. I was about to listen to it today when I thought f*** this is the same s*** over and over and over.

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Well that's because you guys that do other AP things, are tight lipped and won't go on GWAE and discuss anything. Mickeycrimm was one of the few that did.

What say you go on and share some of the stuff you do, Axelwolf? I am guessing NOT....hun?

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

For the love of God, how many God damn episodes on gambling with an edge is about blackjack. I was about to listen to it today when I thought f*** this is the same s*** over and over and over.

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Well that's because you guys that do other AP things, are tight lipped and won't go on GWAE and discuss anything. Mickeycrimm was one of the few that did.

What say you go on and share some of the stuff you do, Axelwolf? I am guessing NOT....hun?

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I've seen plenty of other interesting topics on that show but they keep on going back to the well with the same Blackjack b*******.

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

For the love of God, how many God damn episodes on gambling with an edge is about blackjack. I was about to listen to it today when I thought f*** this is the same s*** over and over and over.

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Well that's because you guys that do other AP things, are tight lipped and won't go on GWAE and discuss anything. Mickeycrimm was one of the few that did.

What say you go on and share some of the stuff you do, Axelwolf? I am guessing NOT....hun?

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I've seen plenty of other interesting topics on that show but they keep on going back to the well with the same Blackjack b*******.

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I'll reiterate something I said a few days ago:

"Card counting is boring. Talking about it online is 10,000x more boring"

Duplicate

Doc on the WoV is already retired. For something like 15 years now. I can say for sure it's not him.

The thing about BJ is it is widely appealing. Most AP stuff you can't practice quite thoroughly at home nor is it as widely discussed. BJ is like the only real AP thing where you can learn it at home, know your casino, show up and apply it. It is great for part-time weekend warrior type APing.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

Doc on the WoV is already retired. For something like 15 years now. I can say for sure it's not him.

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There could be multiple well known AP Gamblers nicknamed "Doc." :)

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Originally Posted by Tasha

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

Doc on the WoV is already retired. For something like 15 years now. I can say for sure it's not him.

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There could be multiple well known AP Gamblers nicknamed "Doc." :)

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Where should I ship your Master of the Obvious Award? I was answering Kewlj's question. I didn't know it was possible for more than one person to have the same screen name on the same site. Now we all know it is possible for one person to be as many screen names as they want. Including you.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

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Originally Posted by Tasha

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

Doc on the WoV is already retired. For something like 15 years now. I can say for sure it's not him.

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There could be multiple well known AP Gamblers nicknamed "Doc." :)

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Where should I ship your Master of the Obvious Award? I was answering Kewlj's question. I didn't know it was possible for more than one person to have the same screen name on the same site. Now we all know it is possible for one person to be as many screen names as they want. Including you.:rolleyes:

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Nathan is right, though. There could be multiple well known AP Gamblers nicknamed "Doc."

Sacre Bleu!

O _ O

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Originally Posted by RS__

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

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Originally Posted by Tasha

There could be multiple well known AP Gamblers nicknamed "Doc." :)

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Where should I ship your Master of the Obvious Award? I was answering Kewlj's question. I didn't know it was possible for more than one person to have the same screen name on the same site. Now we all know it is possible for one person to be as many screen names as they want. Including you.:rolleyes:

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Nathan is right, though. There could be multiple well known AP Gamblers nicknamed "Doc."

Sacre Bleu!

O _ O

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Well that's what the award is for.:D

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

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Originally Posted by Tasha

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

Doc on the WoV is already retired. For something like 15 years now. I can say for sure it's not him.

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There could be multiple well known AP Gamblers nicknamed "Doc." :)

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Where should I ship your Master of the Obvious Award? I was answering Kewlj's question. I didn't know it was possible for more than one person to have the same screen name on the same site. Now we all know it is possible for one person to be as many screen names as they want. Including you.:rolleyes:

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Hey! I was only like 7 names on WOV! :P

It was a great episode IMHO (just like the week before). The show could have a lot more great guests though if Dancer the Clown was replaced. For example, in one recent week they had some woman on (probably eye-candy) named "Black Asian" who didn't know you should never play casino games if you don't have an edge - she was a supposed BJ counter.

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Originally Posted by tableplay

It was a great episode IMHO (just like the week before). The show could have a lot more great guests though if Dancer the Clown was replaced. For example, in one recent week they had some woman on (probably eye-candy) named "Black Asian" who didn't know you should never play casino games if you don't have an edge - she was a supposed BJ counter.

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Piss on Dancer. He NEEDS a players card to be profitable. Revoke them, and he's just another ploppie in the wind.

I can't argue with this.

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

The thing about BJ is it is widely appealing. Most AP stuff you can't practice quite thoroughly at home nor is it as widely discussed. BJ is like the only real AP thing where you can learn it at home, know your casino, show up and apply it. It is great for part-time weekend warrior type APing.

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I can't argue with this.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

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Originally Posted by tableplay

It was a great episode IMHO (just like the week before). The show could have a lot more great guests though if Dancer the Clown was replaced. For example, in one recent week they had some woman on (probably eye-candy) named "Black Asian" who didn't know you should never play casino games if you don't have an edge - she was a supposed BJ counter.

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Piss on Dancer. He NEEDS a players card to be profitable. Revoke them, and he's just another ploppie in the wind.

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Yup.

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by jbjb

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Originally Posted by tableplay

It was a great episode IMHO (just like the week before). The show could have a lot more great guests though if Dancer the Clown was replaced. For example, in one recent week they had some woman on (probably eye-candy) named "Black Asian" who didn't know you should never play casino games if you don't have an edge - she was a supposed BJ counter.

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Piss on Dancer. He NEEDS a players card to be profitable. Revoke them, and he's just another ploppie in the wind.

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Yup.

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Also, he shills for one of the SWEATIEST casinos in the Vegas area.

I have to disagree with this About Bob dancer. He's able to figure out lots of different angles and take advantage of them. He started out doing those types of things. The question would be, if he had to abandon the high limit play stuff with thin edges would he be motivated enough to actually do some of the other things needed in order to make money? I have no doubt the guy is smart enough to master any aspect of the AP if he his mind and time into it. There is no doubt he has the connections to get involved with any aspect of Advantage play. A fairly certain that people would be willing to teach and spoon-feed him all the information he needed or wanted. And he either has the bank roll or can get a hold of it in order to do those things without the fear of losing.

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

I have to disagree with this About Bob dancer. He's able to figure out lots of different angles and take advantage of them. He started out doing those types of things. The question would be, if he had to abandon the high limit play stuff with thin edges would he be motivated enough to actually do some of the other things needed in order to make money? I have no doubt the guy is smart enough to master any aspect of the AP if he his mind and time into it. There is no doubt he has the connections to get involved with any aspect of Advantage play. A fairly certain that people would be willing to teach and spoon-feed him all the information he needed or wanted. And he either has the bank roll or can get a hold of it in order to do those things without the fear of losing.

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Hopefully you'll at least agree that the guy's a dick. It's quite a deterrent to getting good guests on. Sure the show has some excellent people on like Math Boy,Rob Reitzen, Mickey, and so forth, but it's hit and miss. I concede your point that if Dancer is spoon fed he could learn some shit.

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

I have to disagree with this About Bob dancer. He's able to figure out lots of different angles and take advantage of them. He started out doing those types of things. The question would be, if he had to abandon the high limit play stuff with thin edges would he be motivated enough to actually do some of the other things needed in order to make money? I have no doubt the guy is smart enough to master any aspect of the AP if he his mind and time into it. There is no doubt he has the connections to get involved with any aspect of Advantage play. A fairly certain that people would be willing to teach and spoon-feed him all the information he needed or wanted. And he either has the bank roll or can get a hold of it in order to do those things without the fear of losing.

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Sure he, and anyone, can figure these things. Mine, and many others, issues is he MUST use players cards. To us, that's a very weak form of AP because you aren't AP'ing the game. You're AP'ing the marketing department.

As I said, take away all of his cards and he wouldn't be much of an AP playing VP.

Dancer only plays VP and jbjb is right--he's mostly ap'ing the card benefits. To be an income-generating AP these days you need to include other games into the arsenal. However, he's not going to alter his approach or his show now because he's solidly set in his ways at an advanced age. Had he wanted to 20 years ago, instead of putting a lot of effort into his gaming business, I believe he had the ability to do just as well as anybody in the versatile ap world.

The reason he has some duds for shows is for the same reason some of his articles are stinkers: you run out of interesting material after a while. How often can you discuss the same things over and over? That's why I thought it was a good idea when Mickey suggested I be a guest to talk about my years playing the double up glitch. But the guy apparently is set in his ways about me also, although it was me who caused that feeling.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

How often can you discuss the same things over and over?

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Which brings us back to my blackjack quote:

"Card counting is boring. Talking about it online is 10,000x more boring."

It's been discussed to death for the last 50+ years.

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

I have to disagree with this About Bob dancer. He's able to figure out lots of different angles and take advantage of them. He started out doing those types of things. The question would be, if he had to abandon the high limit play stuff with thin edges would he be motivated enough to actually do some of the other things needed in order to make money? I have no doubt the guy is smart enough to master any aspect of the AP if he his mind and time into it. There is no doubt he has the connections to get involved with any aspect of Advantage play. A fairly certain that people would be willing to teach and spoon-feed him all the information he needed or wanted. And he either has the bank roll or can get a hold of it in order to do those things without the fear of losing.

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Dancer has at times said he misses blackjack and expressed a desire to go back to it someday. He's in his 70's now so I think he's missed the boat on that.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

How often can you discuss the same things over and over?

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Which brings us back to my blackjack quote:

"Card counting is boring. Talking about it online is 10,000x more boring."

It's been discussed to death for the last 50+ years.

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Ok, so jbjb finds talk about card counting boring. I guess that means No one can discuss card counting....even though it is a forum supposed to be about gambling advantage play topics.

Anything else we are not allowed to discuss jbjb?

Hey do you go to a coin collecting forum and complain about discussing coin collecting? :confused:

Freaking retard.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by jbjb

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

How often can you discuss the same things over and over?

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Which brings us back to my blackjack quote:

"Card counting is boring. Talking about it online is 10,000x more boring."

It's been discussed to death for the last 50+ years.

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Ok, so jbjb finds talk about card counting boring. I guess that means No one can discuss card counting....even though it is a forum supposed to be about gambling advantage play topics.

Anything else we are not allowed to discuss jbjb?

Hey do you go to a coin collecting forum and complain about discussing coin collecting? :confused:

Freaking retard.

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First off I have solo rights to using the word “retard” here.

2nd, we already have a retard so you have to come up with insult to use.

Thanks and have a Great Day!

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Originally Posted by jbjb

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

I have to disagree with this About Bob dancer. He's able to figure out lots of different angles and take advantage of them. He started out doing those types of things. The question would be, if he had to abandon the high limit play stuff with thin edges would he be motivated enough to actually do some of the other things needed in order to make money? I have no doubt the guy is smart enough to master any aspect of the AP if he his mind and time into it. There is no doubt he has the connections to get involved with any aspect of Advantage play. A fairly certain that people would be willing to teach and spoon-feed him all the information he needed or wanted. And he either has the bank roll or can get a hold of it in order to do those things without the fear of losing.

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Sure he, and anyone, can figure these things. Mine, and many others, issues is he MUST use players cards. To us, that's a very weak form of AP because you aren't AP'ing the game. You're AP'ing the marketing department.

As I said, take away all of his cards and he wouldn't be much of an AP playing VP.

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How much VP could an AP AP if an AP could only AP VP with no PCC?

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

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Originally Posted by jbjb

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

I have to disagree with this About Bob dancer. He's able to figure out lots of different angles and take advantage of them. He started out doing those types of things. The question would be, if he had to abandon the high limit play stuff with thin edges would he be motivated enough to actually do some of the other things needed in order to make money? I have no doubt the guy is smart enough to master any aspect of the AP if he his mind and time into it. There is no doubt he has the connections to get involved with any aspect of Advantage play. A fairly certain that people would be willing to teach and spoon-feed him all the information he needed or wanted. And he either has the bank roll or can get a hold of it in order to do those things without the fear of losing.

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Sure he, and anyone, can figure these things. Mine, and many others, issues is he MUST use players cards. To us, that's a very weak form of AP because you aren't AP'ing the game. You're AP'ing the marketing department.

As I said, take away all of his cards and he wouldn't be much of an AP playing VP.

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How much VP could an AP AP if an AP could only AP VP with no PCC?

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Dancer the Clown, that's his name
Shilling for comps, that's his game
Looking for tokes, by blowing out folks
and if he gives you an evil look
you'll end up in the Griffin Book
Reporting on Plays to bosses
resulting in APs' uncountable losses
it's a list that never ends
and so it is that he has few friends

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Sure he, and anyone, can figure these things. Mine, and many others, issues is he MUST use players cards. To us, that's a very weak form of AP because you aren't AP'ing the game. You're AP'ing the marketing department.

As I said, take away all of his cards and he wouldn't be much of an AP playing VP.

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How much VP could an AP AP if an AP could only AP VP with no PCC?

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Dancer the Clown, that's his name
Shilling for comps, that's his game
Looking for tokes, by blowing out folks
and if he gives you an evil look
you'll end up in the Griffin Book
Reporting on Plays to bosses
resulting in APs' uncountable losses
it's a list that never ends
and so it is that he has few friends

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That is some heavy accusations, tableplay. Do you know all this for fact or just respreading some speculation?

Dancer is simply out for himself first--making money any which way possible either inside or a little bit outside the box. I've never had any problem with that because it is not all that different from how I operated. If he has to deceive a casino to make a buck then he does it. If he has to cause trouble for other players to make a score then he isn't beyond that either. It's why he's successful.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Dancer is simply out for himself first--making money any which way possible either inside or a little bit outside the box. I've never had any problem with that because it is not all that different from how I operated. If he has to deceive a casino to make a buck then he does it. If he has to cause trouble for other players to make a score then he isn't beyond that either. It's why he's successful.

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It’s also why few will shed a tear when he is gone. We all make choices, I doubt he cares if fucking people over has allowed him a better life.

There are AP's that "consult" for the casino industry, like Wong and Shackleford. I don't have a problem with that. I don't tell people how or how not to make a buck.

But then there are people like Eliot Jacobson or going back many year Lawrence Revere in the BJ community that are traitors and will rat out fellow AP's including names and personal info.

Frankly I can never be sure the first kind won't evolve into the second kind somewhere down the road, which is why I have always been hesitant and very selective about meeting other AP's. If I am not partnering with someone or doing business like selling a shuffle machine, I just don't see much benefit and I know that seems to offend some fellow AP's.

It is very clear that Dancer is the first kind. I have heard rumors of the second but haven't heard anyone definitively say so based on firsthand knowledge, which is why I ask.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

How much VP could an AP AP if an AP could only AP VP with no PCC?

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Dancer the Clown, that's his name
Shilling for comps, that's his game
Looking for tokes, by blowing out folks
and if he gives you an evil look
you'll end up in the Griffin Book
Reporting on Plays to bosses
resulting in APs' uncountable losses
it's a list that never ends
and so it is that he has few friends

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That is some heavy accusations, tableplay. Do you know all this for fact or just respreading some speculation?

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He was overheard outing some APs. The person doing the overhearing is a reliable source. I have no further comments.

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by tableplay

Dancer the Clown, that's his name
Shilling for comps, that's his game
Looking for tokes, by blowing out folks
and if he gives you an evil look
you'll end up in the Griffin Book
Reporting on Plays to bosses
resulting in APs' uncountable losses
it's a list that never ends
and so it is that he has few friends

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That is some heavy accusations, tableplay. Do you know all this for fact or just respreading some speculation?

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He was overheard outing some APs. The person doing the overhearing is a reliable source. I have no further comments.

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Ask all of the AP's he screwed over on the Revel offer.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

That is some heavy accusations, tableplay. Do you know all this for fact or just respreading some speculation?

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He was overheard outing some APs. The person doing the overhearing is a reliable source. I have no further comments.

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Ask all of the AP's he screwed over on the Revel offer.

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What did he do that screwed them over at Revel?

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by jbjb

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Originally Posted by tableplay

He was overheard outing some APs. The person doing the overhearing is a reliable source. I have no further comments.

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Ask all of the AP's he screwed over on the Revel offer.

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What did he do that screwed them over at Revel?

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CDC originally stood for Compton and Dancer Consulting, I have no idea if or what connection Bob dancer has to that business anymore. They did in fact consult with casinos what promotions they shouldn't run and which ones to stop.

Rob, you need to listen to the gambling with an edge podcast talking about the Ravel promotion. It almost seems as if Bob dancer has a slip of the tongue. Something about him mentioning to a manager friend how they would get beat. Richard munchkin actually called him on it. Bob dancers excuse was something about not wanting the casino to go under, because he would like to have the opportunity to teach classes there. Again, this is memory from quite a while ago that's why I suggest you listen to it and make your own judgment. What was actually said or done may have been blown out of proportion a little bit, I really have no clue, hell, it could have been worse than what we actually know. The whole thing seemed a little white washed to me.

I have never known Bob dancer to name names or Point people out individually.
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KJ, I don't buy all your excuses of why you don't meet up with people, you are always giving one reason or another, and again, I'm just not buying it. It doesn't really matter, it's your business if you have something to hide, you have your reasons. I know I wouldn't want to meet up with somebody only to have them spot me as a 1-5 red chipper in the future and then they out me to the forums;):D:p. And of course, if I swung the other way, I certainly wouldn't want people recognizing me over in the gay district hopping in the back of cars while getting paid for my booty action;):D:o.

just busting your....um.... well, you know.

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

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KJ, I don't buy all your excuses of why you don't meet up with people, you are always giving one reason or another, and again, I'm just not buying it. It doesn't really matter, it's your business if you have something to hide, you have your reasons. I know I wouldn't want to meet up with somebody only to have them spot me as a 1-5 red chipper in the future and then they out me to the forums;):D:p. And of course, if I swung the other way, I certainly wouldn't want people recognizing me over in the gay district hopping in the back of cars while getting paid for my booty action;):D:o.

just busting your....um.... well, you know.

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That's a good one Axel. I am a red chipper. I live in my mother's basement and work the French fry machine at MickeyD's. That will be the narrative tomorrow from the haters, like the clown on the Island. With friends like you....

Now about your constant gay references. I know you say that is how you are....all the gay jokes. And your friends from the other forum back that up and tell me I shouldn't take offense, that is how you are. And I don't take offense at humor. Believe me, I have heard it all.

But I gotta say, and I don't mean this as an attack, but I have never met a supposed straight guy, THIS obsessed with gay so called humor. Everyone I have ever known so completely obsessed turns out to have one hell of a huge closet. ;) Maybe you are the exception, I don't know. We'll check back in about 15 years. :rolleyes:

I'm going to repeat this story. I think I have relayed it before here. It was back on Ken Smith's Blackjack info, which was my first forum. I was still living in Philly and was playing Atlantic City, mostly with a couple annual trips to Vegas and places like Connecticut. It was probably 2007, 2008, so towards the end of My AC period. I had learned a lot from some of the guys at blackjackinfo. That was a real forum where players were willing to share their experiences and knowledge for the benefit of other players, especially newer players. I don't see that any more these days. AP's rarely give up anything unless it is something from the past.

So anyway, one of my favorite posters on that forum started having these annual get-togethers, in the Midwest where he was from. A few people like MWP can probably verify. MWP, you attended a couple "Blackjack bashes" didn't you? So anyway, I was all set to go to one of these gatherings. I was really looking forward to meeting some members that had helped me so much. At the last minute just days before I got this gut feeling that it was a bad idea and didn't go.

As it turns out almost everybody that attended experienced a losing trip and what's worse, un-be-knowns to them at the time, many found their way into the databases and experienced some issues as time went on. It was months later that I was informed that this member, who happened to be of native American heritage, received a kickback from the native American casino where this event was held and that he frequented regularly. Several different sources have confirmed this to me over the years.

While I don't have absolute proof....the type of proof that would hold up in court....that gut feeling served me well and probably because of the way it turned out, solidified my position that I just don't see much benefit for a solo type card counter, which is what I basically am, to meet up with other forum members. And in my 16th year of supporting myself solely from card/counting /AP (mostly card counting), that early decision (and gut feeling) has served me well. I have been able to do what I do for 16 years.

I do think it is a little different for machine players and other AP's than traditional card counters. For Card counter's it has been described a cat and mouse game with the casino industry for years. I think more accurate might be espionage and spies and traitors. :( But I think this is all catching up to the non-blackjack type AP's now. You guys are starting to experience the same shit we (card counters) have been dealing with for decades....since before my time. And you guys are going to have to start be a little more careful as well, if you have visions of longevity. That is just the era we are in.

But I am sure my reluctance to meet other players, players that could have taught me a thing or twenty has worked against me as well. One of the top Table game AP's in the country, has been critical of me saying that I was slow to progress from a "salamander". That should tell you who. ;) That is mostly because I LIKE being a salamander, but surely I could have benefited from meeting some AP's especially after I moved to Vegas.

One such guy is Stanford Wong. And here is my Stanford Wong story. I was reluctant to meet Wong and attend the green chip parties because Wong had worked as a consultant for the casinos. So I never did. So one night I am playing blackjack at the Westin at Flamingo and Koval. They had pretty lousy blackjack at the time (not sure they even have live blackjack anymore), but it was one of the 3 casinos within a half block walk of my Condo at the time Tuscany and Ellis Island were the others....that should tell you were my first Condo was.

So as I was walking out from the Westin, I spot Stanford Wong (I was on BJ21, so had seen his picture) playing the electronic blackjack game. You know the one with 5 seats and the rotation video dealers with big boobs. So I thought, hummm. I sit down and start playing and strike up a conversation with Wong. I never tell him who I was, but we played for about 3 hours and he taught me how to beat that game. I saw him a second time a few weeks later at the same game. I guess he liked it at the time.

So just imagine if I had met some of the "right" people. I probably could have learned all kinds of things. But again, I like blackjack card counting and making a living from that most elementary of AP plays having put my own little spin on it. So I have no regrets and that includes my reluctance to meet many other AP's. I really has served me well.

There are some really bad posts in this thread.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

But I am sure my reluctance to meet other players, players that could have taught me a thing or twenty has worked against me as well. One of the top Table game AP's in the country, has been critical of me saying that I was slow to progress from a "salamander". That should tell you who. ;) That is mostly because I LIKE being a salamander, but surely I could have benefited from meeting some AP's especially after I moved to Vegas.

One such guy is Stanford Wong. And here is my Stanford Wong story. I was reluctant to meet Wong and attend the green chip parties because Wong had worked as a consultant for the casinos. So I never did. So one night I am playing blackjack at the Westin at Flamingo and Koval. They had pretty lousy blackjack at the time (not sure they even have live blackjack anymore), but it was one of the 3 casinos within a half block walk of my Condo at the time Tuscany and Ellis Island were the others....that should tell you were my first Condo was. .

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Hopefully you weren’t living in the old Perez places behind the Westin and the Flamingo. They looked like some of the most run down ramshackled crack houses around. Anyone know the ones I am talking about?

I believe they were torn down a few years ago.

For a few years after the recession, the condos at the place I believe you are talking about living were dirt cheap to buy. But the monthly fees were crazy high if you didn’t join their rental management program. Much more than the mortgage payment. The place had a plan to become an attractive rental location for tourists, but being in that location never panned out. The 1/1’s ended up selling for well under $100k at one point.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by jbjb

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Originally Posted by tableplay

He was overheard outing some APs. The person doing the overhearing is a reliable source. I have no further comments.

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Ask all of the AP's he screwed over on the Revel offer.

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What did he do that screwed them over at Revel?

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It was 2013 when Revel put on the 100K loss rebate. Leading up to it Dancer gave them a free heads up that they would get crushed on the $25 video pokers. They removed them from the floor. Dancer was trying to get a consulting gig with them and outed the play to prove his worth to them.

I met an AP in Reno in late 2002. He was from Michigan and I had cruised the Great Lakes casinos that prior summer. He told me a story about how he had a $1000 a day gig working ongoing promotions at Turtle Creek Casino just east of Traverse City, Michigan. He developed the image of a high roller and was chummy with everyone including the casino manager. They golfed together every Saturday.

The casino manager wanted to promote the video poker so he contracted Bob Dancer to come to Turtle Creek for a few days to teach video poker. Dancer struck up a conversation with this AP (probably profiled him as an AP) and asked him questions about what he was working. The AP says out of professional courtesy he told Dancer about his plays there. He knew Dancer wouldn't be hanging around so he figured it wouldn't hurt anything.

The next Saturday after Dancer left the AP is golfing with the casino manager and out of the blue the casino manager says "Dancer told me I'm in trouble with a guy like you in my backyard." The casino manager revoked his card which ended the play for him. I still run into this AP occasionally and he still insists Dancer killed his play.

As I said I was at Turtle Creek in the summer of 2002. No decent promotions going on. I figure the casino manager got wise. But I remember seeing Dancer's picture on the wall from the time he visited there.

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Originally Posted by The Boz

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

But I am sure my reluctance to meet other players, players that could have taught me a thing or twenty has worked against me as well. One of the top Table game AP's in the country, has been critical of me saying that I was slow to progress from a "salamander". That should tell you who. ;) That is mostly because I LIKE being a salamander, but surely I could have benefited from meeting some AP's especially after I moved to Vegas.

One such guy is Stanford Wong. And here is my Stanford Wong story. I was reluctant to meet Wong and attend the green chip parties because Wong had worked as a consultant for the casinos. So I never did. So one night I am playing blackjack at the Westin at Flamingo and Koval. They had pretty lousy blackjack at the time (not sure they even have live blackjack anymore), but it was one of the 3 casinos within a half block walk of my Condo at the time Tuscany and Ellis Island were the others....that should tell you were my first Condo was. .

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Hopefully you weren’t living in the old Perez places behind the Westin and the Flamingo. They looked like some of the most run down ramshackled crack houses around. Anyone know the ones I am talking about?

I believe they were torn down a few years ago.

For a few years after the recession, the condos at the place I believe you are talking about living were dirt cheap to buy. But the monthly fees were crazy high if you didn’t join their rental management program. Much more than the mortgage payment. The place had a plan to become an attractive rental location for tourists, but being in that location never panned out. The 1/1’s ended up selling for well under $100k at one point.

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I didn't know the "Perez" place by name but I know what you are talking about. I used to walk through that way on my way to the strip a lot. That was before the High Roller wheel.

It also was not the garden style condos at Koval Flamingo. Those looked decent but had a lot of problems. A lot of undesirables in there. The guy that killed a number of people with his car at LVB and Flamingo a few years ago lived in there. My understanding a lot of drugs in there.

I lived at the highrise on the southeast corner. I can talk about it now. It is a condo hotel, which means people buy and own the units as a vacation property but they can't live there. There is a 60 day limit per year that you can stay. When you are not using it you can have the unit sit vacant or place it back in the pool of units that they rent out as a hotel and earn money when your unit is rented.

Now when I bought, late 2009, it was the height of the recession or crash or whatever you call it and there were a ton of foreclosed properties all over Vegas. This place which was only about 4-5 years old at the time had like a third of their units in foreclosure or some kind of underwater sale. It was effecting the hotel part of the business so they relaxed the residency clause and allowed people to live there.

I Lived in Philly at the time, but knew I was planning on moving to Vegas in the next year, so I was looking online. I came across an auction that had this property listed. I researched what the units were selling for and made a bid of about 25% of what this unit had sold for brand new just 4 years before and bought the unit sight unseen. Three weeks later I moved in. It was a cute 1 bedroom condo on a high floor facing the back of Ballys/Paris. I could catch just a glimps of the Bellagio fountains between the two. And a great view of New Years Eve and 4th of July fireworks.

It was a cool place to live for a guy in his mid/late 20's a block off the strip. But it had drawbacks too. Walls were paper thin, like many hotels. And there was a new crop of rowdy "guests" all the time, especially weekends.

When the economy picked up, and units began selling again, they changed the residency rule back to that you couldn't live there, but could only spend a mx of 60 nights a year and tried to force that among those of us that were living there fulltime. We filed legal action. They made me a nice offer and I walked away. Others were fighting on. But my late partner had followed me to Vegas by that time and I was ready for something a little quieter and away from the strip. But it was a fun couple years.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

I met an AP in Reno in late 2002. He was from Michigan and I had cruised the Great Lakes casinos that prior summer. He told me a story about how he had a $1000 a day gig working ongoing promotions at Turtle Creek Casino just east of Traverse City, Michigan. He developed the image of a high roller and was chummy with everyone including the casino manager. They golfed together every Saturday.

The casino manager wanted to promote the video poker so he contracted Bob Dancer to come to Turtle Creek for a few days to teach video poker. Dancer struck up a conversation with this AP (probably profiled him as an AP) and asked him questions about what he was working. The AP says out of professional courtesy he told Dancer about his plays there. He knew Dancer wouldn't be hanging around so he figured it wouldn't hurt anything.

The next Saturday after Dancer left the AP is golfing with the casino manager and out of the blue the casino manager says "Dancer told me I'm in trouble with a guy like you in my backyard." The casino manager revoked his card which ended the play for him. I still run into this AP occasionally and he still insists Dancer killed his play.

As I said I was at Turtle Creek in the summer of 2002. No decent promotions going on. I figure the casino manager got wise. But I remember seeing Dancer's picture on the wall from the time he visited there.

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So if they made a movie about Dancer he'd be the guy everybody hates more and more as the story progressed. And axel I WILL pull up that GWAE episode for a listen.

This is why I've always believed Dancer has made more money from his "business" than from his vp play. It appears he stops at nothing or no one to make a buck. That's a tough rep to have in vp circles. Surprised he hasn't met the business end of a baseball bat yet.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

So if they made a movie about Dancer he'd be the guy everybody hates more and more as the story progressed. And axel I WILL pull up that GWAE episode for a listen.

This is why I've always believed Dancer has made more money from his "business" than from his vp play. It appears he stops at nothing or no one to make a buck. That's a tough rep to have in vp circles. Surprised he hasn't met the business end of a baseball bat yet.

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Good grief Rob, yesterday you were singing the praises of this guy for the same thing you seem to have turned on him about today. Which is it?:confused:

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Dancer is simply out for himself first--making money any which way possible either inside or a little bit outside the box. I've never had any problem with that because it is not all that different from how I operated. If he has to deceive a casino to make a buck then he does it. If he has to cause trouble for other players to make a score then he isn't beyond that either. It's why he's successful.

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Yea KJ, we are talking about the same place. Some people lost huge money there during the recession, but I’m assuming most just walked away. I thought about buying one near the bottom but couldn’t make the numbers work with the fees and the low occupancy rates at the time. But a nice facility with good views.

Note of useless interest, the old cleaners next door was the one Dana Plato robbed during her downhill decent. Not sure if you know who she was.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

So if they made a movie about Dancer he'd be the guy everybody hates more and more as the story progressed. And axel I WILL pull up that GWAE episode for a listen.

This is why I've always believed Dancer has made more money from his "business" than from his vp play. It appears he stops at nothing or no one to make a buck. That's a tough rep to have in vp circles. Surprised he hasn't met the business end of a baseball bat yet.

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Good grief Rob, yesterday you were singing the praises of this guy for the same thing you seem to have turned on him about today. Which is it?:confused:

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Dancer is simply out for himself first--making money any which way possible either inside or a little bit outside the box. I've never had any problem with that because it is not all that different from how I operated. If he has to deceive a casino to make a buck then he does it. If he has to cause trouble for other players to make a score then he isn't beyond that either. It's why he's successful.

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That's because you usually have some trouble reading the meaning of what's being said. I wasn't aware that Dancer hurt some individuals until boz and mickey identified that. That's the part that diminishes his value.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

That's because you usually have some trouble reading the meaning of what's being said. I wasn't aware that Dancer hurt some individuals until boz and mickey identified that. That's the part that diminishes his value.

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Fair enough, Rob.

A lot of this is new to me also, although I had heard some things. I am a little surprised Munchkin is comfortable working with him on GWAE. But whatever. Different people are comfortable with different things.

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Originally Posted by The Boz

Note of useless interest, the old cleaners next door was the one Dana Plato robbed during her downhill decent. Not sure if you know who she was.

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You are correct Boz, I didn't really know who Dana Plato was until I just read some. Pretty sad shit. According to Wiki (and we all know how reliable THAT is), she worked at that Dry cleaner, and robbed a video tape rental store near by. Either way damn sad. And apparently she had a young son at the time and he has now committed suicide at a young age. Also had a drug problem. Vicious and sad cycle. :(

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

I met an AP in Reno in late 2002. He was from Michigan and I had cruised the Great Lakes casinos that prior summer. He told me a story about how he had a $1000 a day gig working ongoing promotions at Turtle Creek Casino just east of Traverse City, Michigan. He developed the image of a high roller and was chummy with everyone including the casino manager. They golfed together every Saturday.

The casino manager wanted to promote the video poker so he contracted Bob Dancer to come to Turtle Creek for a few days to teach video poker. Dancer struck up a conversation with this AP (probably profiled him as an AP) and asked him questions about what he was working. The AP says out of professional courtesy he told Dancer about his plays there. He knew Dancer wouldn't be hanging around so he figured it wouldn't hurt anything.

The next Saturday after Dancer left the AP is golfing with the casino manager and out of the blue the casino manager says "Dancer told me I'm in trouble with a guy like you in my backyard." The casino manager revoked his card which ended the play for him. I still run into this AP occasionally and he still insists Dancer killed his play.

As I said I was at Turtle Creek in the summer of 2002. No decent promotions going on. I figure the casino manager got wise. But I remember seeing Dancer's picture on the wall from the time he visited there.

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Mickey, from my perspective this is more on your AP friend than on Bob Dancer. What was your AP’s friend purpose of sharing this play with Bob Dancer or anybody else for that matter? Other than to brag to someone?

If someone wants to keep their play a secret so it lasts, here’s a clue on how to do that. Do NOT tell anyone. But I know for some APs this is difficult to do. Nestor is a classic example of what not to do when you discover a great advantage play.

Btw, this is what gets a lot of murders convicted. They can’t keep a secret. They usually share the details of their murder with a new friend they meet in prison, who coincidentally (lol) just happens to be an undercover FBI agent. I’m not making this up.

Moral of the story: If you want to keep your advantage play going, don’t tell anybody about it.

I thought mick had you blocked for being a zig zagging son of a bitch bob. Turns out Mickey zig zags too from foe to friend with singer etc.

Anyway....are you putting on any boot camps? Have Botox, Midwest Player, or tableplay passed your test or class or whatever yet?

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Originally Posted by Bob21

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

I met an AP in Reno in late 2002. He was from Michigan and I had cruised the Great Lakes casinos that prior summer. He told me a story about how he had a $1000 a day gig working ongoing promotions at Turtle Creek Casino just east of Traverse City, Michigan. He developed the image of a high roller and was chummy with everyone including the casino manager. They golfed together every Saturday.

The casino manager wanted to promote the video poker so he contracted Bob Dancer to come to Turtle Creek for a few days to teach video poker. Dancer struck up a conversation with this AP (probably profiled him as an AP) and asked him questions about what he was working. The AP says out of professional courtesy he told Dancer about his plays there. He knew Dancer wouldn't be hanging around so he figured it wouldn't hurt anything.

The next Saturday after Dancer left the AP is golfing with the casino manager and out of the blue the casino manager says "Dancer told me I'm in trouble with a guy like you in my backyard." The casino manager revoked his card which ended the play for him. I still run into this AP occasionally and he still insists Dancer killed his play.

As I said I was at Turtle Creek in the summer of 2002. No decent promotions going on. I figure the casino manager got wise. But I remember seeing Dancer's picture on the wall from the time he visited there.

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Mickey, from my perspective this is more on your AP friend than on Bob Dancer. What was your AP’s friend purpose of sharing this play with Bob Dancer or anybody else for that matter? Other than to brag to someone?

If someone wants to keep their play a secret so it lasts, here’s a clue on how to do that. Do NOT tell anyone. But I know for some APs this is difficult to do. Nestor is a classic example of what not to do when you discover a great advantage play.

Btw, this is what gets a lot of murders convicted. They can’t keep a secret. They usually share the details of their murder with a new friend they meet in prison, who coincidentally (lol) just happens to be an undercover FBI agent. I’m not making this up.

Moral of the story: If you want to keep your advantage play going, don’t tell anybody about it.

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First damn thing you've said that makes sense. I have no idea why APs want to tell people about their plays. I don't even think it's right to openly discuss what one might consider a trivial play that they themself wouldn't participate in. That might be the best tool in someone else's toolbox.

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Originally Posted by mcap

I thought mick had you blocked for being a zig zagging son of a bitch bob. Turns out Mickey zig zags too from foe to friend with singer etc.

Anyway....are you putting on any boot camps? Have Botox, Midwest Player, or tableplay passed your test or class or whatever yet?

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mcap, you’re right Mickey has me blocked so he can’t read my words of wisdom. Lol. But I don’t have him blocked so I can read what he says. Btw, you will never see me block or put someone on ignore. If I don’t want to read what someone has to say, I just don’t read it. I don’t announce to the world I’ve put someone on block or ignore. Who really cares anyway who has who on block. This is a person’s individual choice.

As far as my test, no one has aced it. But I did finally give tableplay a passing grade so he kind of pass it. I don’t have any new tests coming out. But when I do, you’ll be the first to know. And as far as my bootcamp, I’m still working on it.

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

I've seen plenty of other interesting topics on that show but they keep on going back to the well with the same Blackjack b*******.

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Obviously I feel differently about the blackjack episodes. I love hearing accounts of different players journeys. But that is just me.

But I will give you that I would like to see some episodes focusing on things like the different technologies that casinos are now employing. Things like the NORA technology. These things should be public enemy #1 for ALL AP's, including, maybe especially the team oriented machine type players.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

I've seen plenty of other interesting topics on that show but they keep on going back to the well with the same Blackjack b*******.

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Obviously I feel differently about the blackjack episodes. I love hearing accounts of different players journeys. But that is just me.

But I will give you that I would like to see some episodes focusing on things like the different technologies that casinos are now employing. Things like the NORA technology. These things should be public enemy #1 for ALL AP's, including, maybe especially the team oriented machine type players.

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Most casinos can't figure out how to use half of the technology that they actually possess to near it's level of potential effectiveness. NORA has been around for almost a decade and I would say has next to zero effect on an astute machine AP.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

Most casinos can't figure out how to use half of the technology that they actually possess to near it's level of potential effectiveness. NORA has been around for almost a decade and I would say has next to zero effect on an astute machine AP.

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It's been around, MaxPen, but until recently only the really large casinos were willing to spend the money to have access to it. More and more casinos are now spending money on these different technologies, under the exaggerated and misguided theory that AP's are effecting the bottom line. And the industry is expanding their focus to machine AP's where as for years/decades they only focused on table game AP's, particularly the team approach and team relationships, which is what this technology is designed to expose.

Technology is going to be the thing that brings many of us down. I would like to see sources like GWAE bring as much information as possible out into the open.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

Most casinos can't figure out how to use half of the technology that they actually possess to near it's level of potential effectiveness. NORA has been around for almost a decade and I would say has next to zero effect on an astute machine AP.

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It's been around, MaxPen, but until recently only the really large casinos were willing to spend the money to have access to it. More and more casinos are now spending money on these different technologies, under the exaggerated and misguided theory that AP's are effecting the bottom line. And the industry is expanding their focus to machine AP's where as for years/decades they only focused on table game AP's, particularly the team approach and team relationships, which is what this technology is designed to expose.

Technology is going to be the thing that brings many of us down. I would like to see sources like GWAE bring as much information as possible out into the open.

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Where do you get your information from? If you already know the answers why do you need GWAE to discuss it? Table game play is affected from a team and player/employee standpoint. Provided the casino knows how to use and setup the software correctly.
You really have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to machines. You're just making stuff up regarding this and machine play. For someone who is supposedly back to your BJ roots you sure like to try and open discussion regarding the trials and tribulations of those who focus on machines. Have to wonder what your motivations are.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

Where do you get your information from? If you already know the answers why do you need GWAE to discuss it? Table game play is affected from a team and player/employee standpoint. Provided the casino knows how to use and setup the software correctly.
You really have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to machines. You're just making stuff up regarding this and machine play. For someone who is supposedly back to your BJ roots you sure like to try and open discussion regarding the trials and tribulations of those who focus on machines. Have to wonder what your motivations are.

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I got my information from a friend that works the pit at one of the big strip casinos. Granted he works the pit and not surveillance, but he got info from someone he knows in surveillance, so I will grant you my information is not first hand. I would love to have the opportunity to talk to my friend's friend, but I don't think that is going to happen.

So having dinner with my pit friend over the weekend, we talked some "shop" and the topic of NORA came up. And while I had heard of it, much of what he was saying was new to me and quite frankly somewhat concerning. And I would welcome the opportunity to learn more. I think that is the kind of thing if Munchkin could get one of his contacts from a surveillance dept that has some first hand knowledge, we could all benefit from it.

I am not sure why you are giving me such a hard time MaxPen. And yes, I do think this is as much if not more of a threat to the machine type teams from how it was described to me. With Table players, like a BJ call in team, Pit and surveillance has been trying to link players for years, looking for things like 2 or more players that played at the same table in the past.

This NORA does way more than that. It piggybanks off the facial recognition, which at the Casino level wasn't great at the beginning but has gotten better in recent years, along with the personnel operating it. But From there NORA scans all kinds of databases, and I am not just talking about Casino related databases bases like OSN and biometrics, but all kinds of government and financial databases and can find links or connections between two people currently in the casino that seemingly have no connection. It immediately is able to tell you that player A and player B playing on the opposite side of the casino were college roommates, or have had several financial transactions over the years, or used to be employed at the same company, or are cousins or brother-in-laws, or have previously been in this or another casino at the same time. And this is all done automatically, with no input from the operator.

So yeah, I am not a machine team player, and my BJ team play has been very limited. But it seems like something that should be of concern to all AP's And I would like to know as much as I can.

Someone's pulling your leg kew. Only NSA can accomplish some of those things you mentioned, and some of those things are illegal even to that agency unless there's a foreign person of interest involved. If I played black jack I'd be more concerned about where the dealer's hands have been before he or she roared up to the table.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

my BJ team play has been very limited.

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yeah but what about your Blackjack team?

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

my BJ team play has been very limited.

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yeah but what about your Blackjack team?

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I don't think you are posing a serious question, but I will respond.

For the most part I am and have always been a solo type player. I did team with my brother for 2 years which ended at the start of this year, but that partnership is what is known as an EMFH (every man for himself) Team. This means the team members do not play together. at the same table, or even same casino at the same time. They play separately but share results, which smooths out the swings and variance.

With these surveillance technology that we are discussing, I was much more at risk with my late spouse/partner. While we didn't play a lot of blackjack together, and when we did, it was mostly out of town, it would have been fairly easy to link us as "associates" because we were often playing (different games) in the same casinos, plus, not very careful about things like eating lunch together.

Nevermind.