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I'm sorry if this will disappoint you but this question does not involve hate, criminality, bigotry or even politics.
In Triple Double Bonus video poker four aces with a kicker pays the same as a royal.
My question: do royals and AAAA + K appear with the same frequency? To put the question differently, do you have a 1/40,000 chance hitting both a royal and AAAA+K?
No. AWAK occurs about every 14,000 hands or so.
No,,,you are 1 in 14.2k for the aces w/ 2-4
Hence the two credit payout for trips. Is that called volatility?
Try Royal Aces bonus video poker if you want a high frequency chance (relatively speaking) of getting 4000 coins out for 5 in. 1 every 4,032 spins on average will get you paid like a royal flush (your resolved bet is 4 aces, regardless of kicker). Including the royal flush payline then, you will get paid 4000 coins every 3,663 spins on average. I'm sure there are some gimmick games with faster 4000 coin cycles like Dream Card, but you have to pay more coins for these gimmick games (10 coins instead of 5, for a 5 coin payout). I've seen 100 hand Royal Aces Bonus, so a true 4000 coin junky can camp out on one of these (playing 100 hands a spin).Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewG
I've never seen Royal Aces Bonus. Is it in Las Vegas?
I'm the only AP that ever wrote about a Bally video poker game called Draw Till U Win. It was a 103.2%. It went extinct about 14 years ago. Because of the strategy you had about a 33,000 chance of hitting a royal from the deal and draw. But you also had a chance to make a royal anytime your final hand was a non-paying 4-card royal. Examples:
As-Ks-Qs-Ts-7s or As-Ks-Qs-Ts-Jh or As-Ks-Qs-Ts-Ac were paying hands so didn't qualify.
As-Ks-Qs-Ts-5c was a non-paying 4-card royal so you got to draw one card at a time until you hit a pay. With this hand there are only 21 cards left in the deck that will make a paying hand, 8 flush cards, 3 straight cards, 9 high pair cards, and 1 royal card. So the chance of making the royal on the draw was 1 in 21. And it could be even lower than that. If you were dealt a 3-card royal then discarded a high pair card, and/or straight card, and/or flush card, then caught a 4th royal card on the draw, your odds of making the royal in the Draw Till U Win feature was 1 in 20 or 1 in 19.
The overall effect was reducing overall royals odds down to 9700. That was the problem with this game. If you played it heavily you averaged a royal a day. That brought a lot of attention to it from casino personnel. Some players were even accused of cheating and investigated by Gaming. I hit 3 royals in a day twice.
At Stockmen's in Fallon, Nevada my ole' buddy Al and i were playing side by side when he hit 4 royals in 4 hours. That was the end of Draw Till U Win at Stockmen's. At the Carson Valley Inn in Minden, Nevada, Doug Reul hit 6 royals in one day and wound up having to explain to Gaming how he did that.
It was fun while it lasted.
Thank you Mr Crimm for your description about that game. But I don't understand something you said.
"As-Ks-Qs-Ts-5c was a non-paying 4-card royal so you got to draw one card at a time until you hit a pay. With this hand there are only 21 cards left in the deck that will make a paying hand, 8 flush cards, 3 straight cards, 9 high pair cards, and 1 royal card. So the chance of making the royal on the draw was 1 in 21."
Weren't there still 47 cards remaining, so your chance of getting a royal remained at 1 out of 47, or did the game limit the selection of remaining cards to allow you to draw from the 21 cards you mentioned?
And was there an extra charge similar to the extra charge to play Dream Card?
It's 1 in 21. The only cards that end the hand are winners.
You continue to draw UNTIL you hit a winner?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
Can you draw through 26 cards?
I don't understand how they released a game with such a large off the top edge. Did they just not know or did they assume most people would play far below optimal expectation?
I don't live in the area, but I believe it is there.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewG
It's been at the Masquerade Bar at the Rio for years.
You keep drawing cards until you hit a pay. 47 cards are remaining but only 21 of them are paying cards. Only the paying cards count.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewG
Thank you. That's amazing. Was it a widespread game or a "loss leader" game with limited distribution?Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimmYou keep drawing cards until you hit a pay. 47 cards are remaining but only 21 of them are paying cards. Only the paying cards count.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewG
You can draw as many cards as it takes to make a paying hand. So yes, if it takes 26 cards to finally get a paying hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewGYou continue to draw UNTIL you hit a winner?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
Can you draw through 26 cards?
There's at least 3 bartops with it at Pioneer Crossing in Fernley. I think Bodines also has it in Carson, but not 100% sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
Good Information Mickeycrimm!
I actually talked about Draw Till You Win on several boards many times.
Nobody was interested or knew/understood the game.
I have a friend who always talks and dreams about finding that game somewhere in the back of some Casino that was mistakenly put in from storage.
The game was fun while it lasted as you say... so was 100 play Jacks of Better with a strong card.
My playing days are just about done but I do miss how easy it used to be.
I plan to move in the Spring of 2020 out of Vegas and Retire with a Hobby Farm (40 to 80 acres most likely).
I looked into Montana very seriously but the Hard Winters deter my wife.
First, the Draw Till U Win feature also applied to straight flush cards. If you wind up with a 4-card straight flush like 4-5-6-7 you get to Draw Till U win. In this spot there is only 15 pay cards, 7 flush cards, 6 straight cards and 2 straight flush cards. So your chance of making the straight flush is just 1 in 7.5. Inside straight flush cards like 4-6-7-8 were also eligible. The overall effect was reducing straight flush odds from about 9500 down to 1050.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewGThank you. That's amazing. Was it a widespread game or a "loss leader" game with limited distribution?Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimmYou keep drawing cards until you hit a pay. 47 cards are remaining but only 21 of them are paying cards. Only the paying cards count.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewG
The game was developed back in the nineties when manufacturers were not so boned up on payback percentages. When Gaming investigated Doug Reul they contacted Bally and Bally couldn't tell them the payback of the game. The game was 6/5 Double Bonus Poker with the Draw Till U Win feature. If you played it like regular Jacks or Better you would get only about a 98% return. No software on the market can analyze this game. When I first found out about the game no one would give me the strategy so I had to calculate and write it myself.
I had to dead reckon how to write the strategy. I first had to calculate the EV's for all the 4-card royals and 4-card straight flushes in Draw Till U Win mode. Then I had to create a new category for them. When you put an EV on a drawing hand it looks like this:
As-Ks-Qs-8c-7d
Total Combinations on the draw = 1081
Paying Combinations:
High Pair = 348 combinations
2 Pair = 27 combinations
3K = 9 combinations
Straight = 15 combinations
Flush = 44 combinations
Non-Paying 4-Card Royal = 37 combinations
I had to include the expected value of the 4-card royals in Draw Till U Win mode to get the right value and placement in the strategy chart. After determining the right number of combinations you multiply them out by their payoffs then divide by 1081 to get the actual value of the drawing hand and it's placement in the strategy chart. I had to do the same with 2-card royals and even 1-card royals. And also the straight flush hands.
Doug Reul wrote a program to analyze the game when it first came out and it put the game at 103.2% with optimum strategy. This is just some stuff where some pros outsmarted the manufacturers.
In May of 2002 I was dragging up on the Pioneer/Laughlin Double Time play. They had finally gotten it screwed down where it wasn't worth so much money. I made plans to head up to Vegas. Randy McKay told me "Mickey, you get around, check all the Gamemakers and see if you can find a game called Draw Till U Win." It was the first I had heard of the game. I asked him about the strategy. He said "Just call me if you find it." I don't blame him for not giving me the strategy. Why would I call him If I had the strategy? LOL! But what Randy didn't know, and I guess a lot of other AP's didn't know, was I could write video poker strategy with just the payscale, a calculator and scratch paper.
So I went up to Vegas and checked into the Golden Gate. Downtown had a lot of vulturables in those days and also 10-20 holdem at the Horseshoe. So I'm lapping around the vulturables downtown and walk into the Vegas Club. First Bally Gamemaker I see I check it and lo and behold....there's Draw Till U Win. I sat down to play the game. It didn't look anything special, just a 6/5 Double Bonus payscale. After awhile I made a 4-card straight flush and found out about getting to draw until you hit a pay. I kept playing because I wanted to see what happened with a 4-card royal. So I finally get a 4-card royal and I get to draw until I win something. About the 6th card out I made the royal. So I hit a royal the first time I played the game.
I cashed out and went back to my room at the Golden Gate. I was up there two days writing the strategy. Only came out to eat. I went over it and over it to make sure I didn't make any mistakes. When I felt it was good enough I stepped back over to the Golden Gate, sat down at the Gamemaker, and went to punch the game up....and it was gone! Dammit! Dammit! Dammit! Shit!
I looked all over Vegas for it. Couldn't find it anywhere. I kept thinking about what to do. I finally decided I was going to have to take a trip to Northern Nevada. From Reno/Tahoe all the way across to Wendover looking for that game.
Yes Bodine's does have it on the floor. They also have the best breakfast in the area.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplayThere's at least 3 bartops with it at Pioneer Crossing in Fernley. I think Bodines also has it in Carson, but not 100% sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
We may have played 10-20 at the Shoe as I played in that game(s) since 95.
I played in the 4-8 Omaha games as well for many years.
Unless Ho came along and created a 10-20 or 15-30 Omaha Hi Game that is.
In those days, Cherry Pie, Diamond Mines and Boom Machines were all the craze.
Those were the days of Tony Sheldon, Hand Written Comps and Shaved Meat in the Sports Book Deli.
We will never get them back.
Now it is all perfumed air and don't drink or gamble too much or we will throw you out.
I just eat at the Costco a block west from there - big pizza slice and fruit smoothie for five and change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.SingerYes Bodine's does have it on the floor. They also have the best breakfast in the area.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplayThere's at least 3 bartops with it at Pioneer Crossing in Fernley. I think Bodines also has it in Carson, but not 100% sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
Great story. I liked the one you told about the slot attendant that would key up DTUW for his buddy and then take it out of the game selection screen when his buddy was finished. LOL.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
I don't go to Costco's or Sam's Clubs. That Costco has to be filled with Comstock Country RVers, just like Bodines is. But their restaurant is excellent. The pizza is great, and when I'm there in the summers (going for 2 mos. next summer to make up for being grounded this summer) I have their great egg white veggie omelette at least four times a week.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplayI just eat at the Costco a block west from there - big pizza slice and fruit smoothie for five and change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.SingerYes Bodine's does have it on the floor. They also have the best breakfast in the area.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplay
That was at a truck stop in Wells, Nevada. I think it was a Pilot or something like that. They had a little 20 machine casino. Doug Reul told me that was going on. But then I got to see it for myself. I walked in there and they had 2 Gamemakers. Some guy is playing one so I look over his shoulder and sure enough he's playing DTUW. There was one attendent in the casino. I checked the other machine and it wasn't on that machine. So I go and get a hotel room. That night I went back. The guy was gone so I punch the game screen up and the game wasn't on it. So the next morning I go back and the same guy is playing DTUW.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplayGreat story. I liked the one you told about the slot attendant that would key up DTUW for his buddy and then take it out of the game selection screen when his buddy was finished. LOL.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
I figure they were using that game to skim that little casino and weren't going to let anyone else in on it. He and the slot attendants were in cahoots.
Thanks Mickey. I suppose as a "casino employee", the attendant could request par sheets and set up accounts at Scientific Games, IGT,Aristocrat, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimmThat was at a truck stop in Wells, Nevada. I think it was a Pilot or something like that. They had a little 20 machine casino. Doug Reul told me that was going on. But then I got to see it for myself. I walked in there and they had 2 Gamemakers. Some guy is playing one so I look over his shoulder and sure enough he's playing DTUW. There was one attendent in the casino. I checked the other machine and it wasn't on that machine. So I go and get a hotel room. That night I went back. The guy was gone so I punch the game screen up and the game wasn't on it. So the next morning I go back and the same guy is playing DTUW.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplayGreat story. I liked the one you told about the slot attendant that would key up DTUW for his buddy and then take it out of the game selection screen when his buddy was finished. LOL.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
I figure they were using that game to skim that little casino and weren't going to let anyone else in on it. He and the slot attendants were in cahoots.
Perfectly legal.
In Chaoots eh?
I don't believe it.
I was pretty sure after reading these forums that the gambling industry was honest, squeaky clean 99% of the time.
Nothing but a bunch of Church Goers in these Casinos from my understanding, after reading posts from KJ and Boz, along with others.
I played in all those games as well though I wasn't as regular as you because i traveled out of town a lot. I was at a lot of the WSOP's though from 92 until it moved to the Rio. I was there when Moneymaker won it and caused the poker boom. The 4-8 O8 game was like watching paint dry because the dealers were so bad and the old geezers were slow to act. That 4-8 Omaha High game was the nuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by monet
That name, Ho, sounds familiar.
Along I-80, besides the casinos, there were bartop Gamemakers in pretty much all the bars, and trucks stops had plenty of them. I found DTUW in Sparks, Minden, Fernley, Fallon, Yerington, Carlin, Elko and Wendover. It took a few years for them to all disappear.
Ho is some busted up drunk Asian that wanders around downtown in flip flops.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimmI played in all those games as well though I wasn't as regular as you because i traveled out of town a lot. I was at a lot of the WSOP's though from 92 until it moved to the Rio. I was there when Moneymaker won it and caused the poker boom. The 4-8 O8 game was like watching paint dry because the dealers were so bad and the old geezers were slow to act. That 4-8 Omaha High game was the nuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by monet
That name, Ho, sounds familiar.
He is and has managed to stay in better shape than Sieed... Sigheed... Si Ied... however you spell it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxPen
I remember when Ho drank Heineken all the time...
In 2006 or so he move to Heineken Light...
In recent years it is Coors Light in a Glass!
Nothing better than hearing him order that drink and go Ape Shit when he doesn't get a glass.
Also fun when Cocktails ignores him or shuts him off... You don't want to make money!!
F You... I do what I want!
I don't care!
I know the book! I play by book!
Maybe you played or heard of Detroit Larry??Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
He used to play in that game a bunch.
I am pretty sure he passed away 10 to 13 years ago.
I heard that he died from someone else so that could be incorrect information.
I played that game in Reno. It was Baldini’s in 2001. It had two guns as the icon. The over cycle for the Royal Flush was under 9,000 because you would break a pat flush if it had 4 to the Royal.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
There are lots of 103% or 102% video poker games off the top of you know where to find them.
Spielo had several over 100% VP games in Montana. Best one involved Triple Aces or better gets you a bonus round with multipliers.
Did you mean Grand Vision Gaming, rather than Spielo ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-AP
Speaking of Baldini's (<100% RTP):
Dude, do you even know what a 103%+ non-progressive VP game looks like? I played them *only* after very smart people point them out to me. I have never found a 103%+ non-progressive VP in my entire 20+ year career ... very hard to find them, but people find them and as Micky Crimm said himself someone had tipped him off.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplayDid you mean Grand Vision Gaming, rather than Spielo ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-AP
Speaking of Baldini's (<100% RTP):
The game was Triple Ace Poker and I doubt Mickey Crimm played it in Montana. Chicken Ranch casino near Jamestown removed their last two Spielo’s and the short pay Triple Ace Poker were on both of those machines in the back of the casino. Those two remaining Spielo’s uprights got removed right around the time Chicken Ranch removed Cash Eruption and other +EV bonus games like Jungle Riches (this was before their big expansion). Right about the time Cash Eruption and Jungle Riches also disappeared from nearby Black Oak casino ... too much of a coincidence if you ask me.
The 103%+ Triple Ace Poker was only known to a few people who had the right skills to analyze the game due to a difficult feature.
Yes. I 5-coin several UX plays daily. These are non-progressives and they start at around 105% ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-AP
The context of the thread was a 103% play all game.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplay
The last 103%+ game (meter movements of progressives were 1%) that I played was a bi-modal video poker game just like the one Micky wrote about. Gaming companies tend to make mistakes with bimodal VP games except for IGT.
Understood. The answer is still yes. Parlay Entertainment (online circa 2004) had a version of deuces wild where both the full house and the four of a kind paid 5 coins. They thought that because they shorted the player on the straight flush, five of a kind, and wild royal, that this was enough to make up for it. Well guess what ? it wasn't. The game came in at 104%+ straight up. The earlier days of online gaming were a gold mine. I'm guessing some of the other readers here knew about this game too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-APThe context of the thread was a 103% play all game.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplay
The last 103%+ game (meter movements of progressives were 1%) that I played was a bi-modal video poker game just like the one Micky wrote about. Gaming companies tend to make mistakes with bimodal VP games except for IGT.
I analyzed the Montana version of Triple Ace Poker several years ago and put it at 97%. Must be the short pay version.
Triple Ace Poker is an Aces or Better VP game. When you make a hand that has three Aces in it (3 Aces, Aces Full, 4 Aces) you are dealt five cards face down. Behind one of the cards is a 2X multiplier, behind two of the cards is a 3X multiplier and behind two of the cards is a 4X multiplier. You get to pick a card. Whatever the multiplier is you get it for the next 8 hands. When in multiplier mode you can win more multipliers the same way.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
I'll get a pic of the payscale and post it up. The multiplier games are not free. You still have to pay for each game.
The royal frequency is 9700 according to the program/analyzer that Doug Reul, former writer for Video Poker Times, wrote for the game. Doug is the one that discovered the game was 103%. Your assertion that the royal freq. is under 9000 is wrong and I would point out that you break a pat flush for a four card royal at most all video poker games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-API played that game in Reno. It was Baldini’s in 2001. It had two guns as the icon. The over cycle for the Royal Flush was under 9,000 because you would break a pat flush if it had 4 to the Royal.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
There are several reasons for the big reduction in royals odds (from 40K down to 9.7K).
First, you are drawing to more 2 and 3 card royals than normal video poker.
Second, when you wind up with a 4 card royal after the draw you get to draw one card at a time until you win. In normal video poker the hand would be over at that point.
Third, since you get to draw until you win it eliminates a lot of cards. In normal video poker the royal chances would be 1 in 47. But the non-paying cards are eliminated so the royal freq. is enhanced to 1 in 26 or better depending on how many pay cards you may have thrown away before the draw. And the 4 card royal with 4 high cards has at least a 1 in 23 chance.
It was a feeble attempt here by ex-ap to act like he knew anything about Draw Till U Win.
The above statement is false. I found only one Spielo game, Joker's Vault, a progressive video poker game that will go positive. It's been around for many years but I rarely find one with a playable number.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-AP
Triple Aces Poker in Montana is a 97% video poker game. It's had the same payscale since it came out.
I could have pointed all this out last year when this thread was fresh but I let it go. Ex-Ap has proven to be an insufferable prick so I'm not letting it go anymore.
This is the post where ex-ap gets snarky with tableplay for no reason. And he also made some erroneous assertions. "I doubt Mickey Crimm played it in Montana." Wrong. I analyzed Triple Ace Poker many years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-AP
Why would ex-ap point out that a short pay version of Triple Ace Poker was removed from a casino? If there was a positive pay version then where was it? What was the payscale? In the short pay version where was the chop made on the payscale?
And this statement: "The 103% Triple Ace Poker was only known to a few people who had the right skills to analyze the game due to a difficult feature."
This statement is both interesting and telling. Ex-Ap does not say that HE analyzed the game. He states "people who had the right skills" analyzed the game.
Perhaps there was a positive version in California. Either that or those that analyzed the game made a mistake. When you make 3 Aces, Aces Full or 4 Aces you are awarded multipliers for the next 8 games. But the games are not free. You still have to pay for them. If this was not factored in then the game will show positive. If its factored in then the game will show negative. At least that's the way it is with the Montana payscale. So they may have made a mistake in analyzing the game.