"advanced slot tactic" that Prax from the GWAE podcast may have been referring to

Here is an example of an advanced tactic that may be part of Prax's portfolio of advanced slot tactics - For slots with the Wager Saver feature do the following:
Warning: this is conjecture
1) Put in only enough money for a one unit bet, along with "your" players club card
2) Bet the unit
3) if you lose only part of the bet, opt for the wager saver bet. You will get a bet in at 100% RTP added to your slot card at 1:1 or whatever club credit is for a slot bet. Usually even money or low house edge machine bets (VP) get no credit or get something along the lines of whatever a VP machine gets unless it is a vulturable or progressive/must hit in an advantage state.
Ideally the slot in question will be a vulturable or must hit with the wager saver feature enabled such that the initial 1 unit wager is also at an advantage.

Hmm

If you bet $10.
Lose $9.
Then bet $1 on wager saver. Does the player card count a $1 wager? Are you saying some rtp is gained by this?
Cause I'm not seeing it my mental math.

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Originally Posted by radicalwin

If you bet $10.
Lose $9.
Then bet $1 on wager saver. Does the player card count a $1 wager? Are you saying some rtp is gained by this?
Cause I'm not seeing it my mental math.

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Warning:Conjecture Below
Yes the player card should count a $1 wager. Yes there is RTP gained by this.

Imagine the following Radical Win Scenario:
1) Ten Dollars is inserted into the machine by Radical Win and $10 is wagered on a slot spin where Radical Win happens to lose $9. Wager Saver is activated and Radical Win opts to wager his remaining $1 on the wager saver to win a new $10 spin with 1/10 probability (so no house edge on this wager saver bet - it's true odds just like an odds bet in craps)

2) Now here is the caveat. The thing you win if you win the 1/10 chance bet (1 dollar wager saver bet divided by 10 dollar bet is the chance the machine gives you to win a $10 free spin) is another $10 spin not actual cash. You have added a buck's worth of players club points to "your" players club card at true odds (100%) rather than at the RTP of the machine regardless of whether or not you lose the Wager Saver bet (that is the increase in RTP). You also decrease the variance since you can cover all paylines that the $10 bet covered with just a $1 Wager Saver Bet if you win the bet. So there are all sorts of crazy scenarios you can enjoy if you wish to go through the tedium of only inserting the amount of cash equivalent to the bet size you wish to make (along with "your" players club card).

Wow, the above would be absolutely worthless. I could write a book on how that is 10000000000 percent not what they are doing. He also is a fool. He thinks he reinvented the wheel (prax) there is no new slot play that would be so advanced and so spur of the moment that he can’t check into a room since he may be called instantly and have to leave

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Originally Posted by Advantageplay

Wow, the above would be absolutely worthless. I could write a book on how that is 10000000000 percent not what they are doing. He also is a fool. He thinks he reinvented the wheel (prax) there is no new slot play that would be so advanced and so spur of the moment that he can’t check into a room since he may be called instantly and have to leave

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Suppose there is a slot (with a Wager Saver feature) with 85% RTP and a wager saver bet is presented because the player wagered $10 and lost $9 of that $10 wager ($10 balance in the machine to start). Noting that .85x $10 is the value of the free spin we have:
Wager Saver E(V) = (9/10)x (-1) + (1/10) x (the value of free spin) = (9/10)x -1 + (1/10) x .85 x $10 . So the Wager Saver E(V) is -$.05 .
If you wager $1 (the wager saver bet) and lose $0.05 that means the RTP of the wager saver bet is 95% rather than the 85% RTP of the slot. In my original post I mentioned both that it was conjecture along with that it might be a possible move in a portfolio of what might be many different plays. So he may not have used it. Nonetheless making a 95% RTP bet on a machine with 85% RTP makes my statement true that you gain RTP from a wager saver bet in my opinion.

Not arguing that it’s true or not true. Just worthless for what they are doing . Not only that the amount of tome required for that would make the hourly less than minimum wage

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Originally Posted by Advantageplay

Not arguing that it’s true or not true. Just worthless for what they are doing . Not only that the amount of tome required for that would make the hourly less than minimum wage

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Ok, fair enough. As you know, there are Wager Saver games that can get into a +EV state for the player (https://www.sggaming.com/games/WMS/c...igh-Denom-6609) that don't take that long to pick off. I'm not saying it's a frequently occurring event, but if you find a PB that's one pig away I don't see the harm in having this knowledge in your portfolio. One might even find a Wager Saver that gets into +EV states for the player in a high limit room someday. I accept your supposition that that is not one of the things that they're doing and also your point that it is not worth it for many advantage players. It was conjecture on my part.

It is my thought that nothing is gained from the wager saver. Why? The prize of winning the wager saver is an 85% spin.

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Originally Posted by radicalwin

It is my thought that nothing is gained from the wager saver. Why? The prize of winning the wager saver is an 85% spin.

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However, in the example I gave, you are paying 1 dollar which is 1/10 the price for this spin rather than the normal $10 for the spin if you win the wager saver bet. Whether you win the wager saver bet or not, points are added to your card as if it was an 85% RTP game (many casinos give more liberal points for slots due to their lower RTP than video poker) even though the Wager Saver bet comes in at 95% RTP (in the example I gave).

At the most basic level it could take hours to generate even a meaningless 10k coin in and would still not gain anything

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Originally Posted by Advantageplay

At the most basic level it could take hours to generate even a meaningless 10k coin in and would still not gain anything

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Certainly on a 1X multiplier day. On a 10X multliplier day, for example (as you know GSR has these sorts of promos) it could make a difference.

Thank you for the post Tableplay. It made sense to me early on from a High Limit machine stand point on a multiplier day. But even more as just an example of ways to think of things differently. Also knowing a small way to add to your EV may not make a huge difference to your results, but knowing many small ways to add to you EV and using them all can make a big difference.

FWIW when I heard the episode I just automatically assumed he was running mail & promos (With inside knowledge from “M” on where the most profitable stuff was)

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

Thank you for the post Tableplay. It made sense to me early on from a High Limit machine stand point on a multiplier day. But even more as just an example of ways to think of things differently. Also knowing a small way to add to your EV may not make a huge difference to your results, but knowing many small ways to add to you EV and using them all can make a big difference.

FWIW when I heard the episode I just automatically assumed he was running mail & promos (With inside knowledge from “M” on where the most profitable stuff was)

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Sure no problem DGenBen. Your assumption is as good a guess as any. Radical Win, the free spin prize awarded by winning the Wager Saver bet is not an 85% free spin, it is a full value free spin (if it was an 85% free spin then the value of the free spin would be .85x.85x$10 rather than .85x$10). I should have written this in my previous response to your statement.

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

FWIW when I heard the episode I just automatically assumed he was running mail & promos (With inside knowledge from “M” on where the most profitable stuff was)

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I thought this same thing, but I was less than clear on why he would be in a spot where he needed to be so mobile he could not stay in a hotel.

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Originally Posted by Prozema

I thought this same thing, but I was less than clear on why he would be in a spot where he needed to be so mobile he could not stay in a hotel.

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I think staying in his van is more of a preference, and less for money and mobility. I have friends involved in the "Van-Life" he referred to -- but they are primarily surfers and skiers and hikers. It is a huge hobby for some, especially about his age, to outfit a small van to live in and travel around with.

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Originally Posted by Prozema

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

FWIW when I heard the episode I just automatically assumed he was running mail & promos (With inside knowledge from “M” on where the most profitable stuff was)

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I thought this same thing, but I was less than clear on why he would be in a spot where he needed to be so mobile he could not stay in a hotel.

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He mentioned a fear of bed bugs lol. I figured if he was running mail all over the place would have to be very mobile to pick up everything during the pickup dates especially if he was doing it over a large area.

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

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Originally Posted by Prozema

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

FWIW when I heard the episode I just automatically assumed he was running mail & promos (With inside knowledge from “M” on where the most profitable stuff was)

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I thought this same thing, but I was less than clear on why he would be in a spot where he needed to be so mobile he could not stay in a hotel.

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He mentioned a fear of bed bugs lol. I figured if he was running mail all over the place would have to be very mobile to pick up everything during the pickup dates especially if he was doing it over a large area.

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I think you and Prozema's guess is a good one - and, if the guess is correct, then what threw me is that Prax classifies it as an advanced slot tactic rather than an ABC move (I don't recall him mentioning it as an ABC move or mentioning it even at all).

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Originally Posted by Prozema

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

FWIW when I heard the episode I just automatically assumed he was running mail & promos (With inside knowledge from “M” on where the most profitable stuff was)

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I thought this same thing, but I was less than clear on why he would be in a spot where he needed to be so mobile he could not stay in a hotel.

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I'm not gonna lie... I've always been a little envious of people who are so happy with what I think of as less. I've fallen into the trap of creature comforts... I don't think I've gone overboard but ever since I rented that expedition with airconditioned seats I'm kinda thinking that's now a must have on my next vehicle.

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

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Originally Posted by Prozema

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

FWIW when I heard the episode I just automatically assumed he was running mail & promos (With inside knowledge from “M” on where the most profitable stuff was)

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I thought this same thing, but I was less than clear on why he would be in a spot where he needed to be so mobile he could not stay in a hotel.

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He mentioned a fear of bed bugs lol. I figured if he was running mail all over the place would have to be very mobile to pick up everything during the pickup dates especially if he was doing it over a large area.

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I'll take my chances with the insects.

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

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Originally Posted by Prozema

I thought this same thing, but I was less than clear on why he would be in a spot where he needed to be so mobile he could not stay in a hotel.

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He mentioned a fear of bed bugs lol. I figured if he was running mail all over the place would have to be very mobile to pick up everything during the pickup dates especially if he was doing it over a large area.

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I think you and Prozema's guess is a good one - and, if the guess is correct, then what threw me is that Prax classifies it as an advanced slot tactic rather than an ABC move (I don't recall him mentioning it as an ABC move or mentioning it even at all).

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Yeah, he was incredibly vague. That's appropriate imho.

Personally see no point in making a lot of money while living like a peasant. I have no idea if I'll wake up tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Prozema

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

He mentioned a fear of bed bugs lol. I figured if he was running mail all over the place would have to be very mobile to pick up everything during the pickup dates especially if he was doing it over a large area.

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I think you and Prozema's guess is a good one - and, if the guess is correct, then what threw me is that Prax classifies it as an advanced slot tactic rather than an ABC move (I don't recall him mentioning it as an ABC move or mentioning it even at all).

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Yeah, he was incredibly vague. That's appropriate imho.

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Yes, it's fine by me. He can classify it the way he wants and for whatever reason (discretion in this case) of course.

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by Prozema

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Originally Posted by tableplay

I think you and Prozema's guess is a good one - and, if the guess is correct, then what threw me is that Prax classifies it as an advanced slot tactic rather than an ABC move (I don't recall him mentioning it as an ABC move or mentioning it even at all).

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Yeah, he was incredibly vague. That's appropriate imho.

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Yes, it's fine by me. He can classify it the way he wants and for whatever reason (discretion in this case) of course.

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Also, another reason I think it might be mail and promos is he mentioned that they don’t need ploppies to put machines in advantageous states.

So if its not mail and promos (with say high payback VP) it would have to be machines you could just jump on anytime and have an advantage. If those exist then “M” is probably not going to share that information and also be ok with him going on a podcast listened to be mostly APs in case he slipped and spilled the beans.

Something like that would be a closely held secret i would think.

Another clue was when he talked about banks of machines that can’t be held and people would put their jackets on them to hold them on the honor system. Sounds like a bunch of pros working promos at a high payback VP bank. (Or with a Progressive making it plus EV,)

But hey what do I know lol? All speculation.

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by Advantageplay

Wow, the above would be absolutely worthless. I could write a book on how that is 10000000000 percent not what they are doing. He also is a fool. He thinks he reinvented the wheel (prax) there is no new slot play that would be so advanced and so spur of the moment that he can’t check into a room since he may be called instantly and have to leave

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Suppose there is a slot (with a Wager Saver feature) with 85% RTP and a wager saver bet is presented because the player wagered $10 and lost $9 of that $10 wager ($10 balance in the machine to start). Noting that .85x $10 is the value of the free spin we have:
Wager Saver E(V) = (9/10)x (-1) + (1/10) x (the value of free spin) = (9/10)x -1 + (1/10) x .85 x $10 . So the Wager Saver E(V) is -$.05 .
If you wager $1 (the wager saver bet) and lose $0.05 that means the RTP of the wager saver bet is 95% rather than the 85% RTP of the slot. In my original post I mentioned both that it was conjecture along with that it might be a possible move in a portfolio of what might be many different plays. So he may not have used it. Nonetheless making a 95% RTP bet on a machine with 85% RTP makes my statement true that you gain RTP from a wager saver bet in my opinion.

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Yeah except you lose $1 x 10, not x 9 like your incorrect formula.

$1 goes in 10 times.
$8.50 comes out.
-$1.50
$19 in coin in, worth about $.10
Still -$1.40 to go...

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Originally Posted by 13BucksanHourAP

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by Advantageplay

Wow, the above would be absolutely worthless. I could write a book on how that is 10000000000 percent not what they are doing. He also is a fool. He thinks he reinvented the wheel (prax) there is no new slot play that would be so advanced and so spur of the moment that he can’t check into a room since he may be called instantly and have to leave

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Suppose there is a slot (with a Wager Saver feature) with 85% RTP and a wager saver bet is presented because the player wagered $10 and lost $9 of that $10 wager ($10 balance in the machine to start). Noting that .85x $10 is the value of the free spin we have:
Wager Saver E(V) = (9/10)x (-1) + (1/10) x (the value of free spin) = (9/10)x -1 + (1/10) x .85 x $10 . So the Wager Saver E(V) is -$.05 .
If you wager $1 (the wager saver bet) and lose $0.05 that means the RTP of the wager saver bet is 95% rather than the 85% RTP of the slot. In my original post I mentioned both that it was conjecture along with that it might be a possible move in a portfolio of what might be many different plays. So he may not have used it. Nonetheless making a 95% RTP bet on a machine with 85% RTP makes my statement true that you gain RTP from a wager saver bet in my opinion.

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Yeah except you lose $1 x 10, not x 9 like your incorrect formula.

$1 goes in 10 times.
$8.50 comes out.
-$1.50
$19 in coin in, worth about $.10
Still -$1.40 to go...

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EVBandit/Ex-AP/13BucksanHourAP, it isn't my formula and it is not wrong. Check any of the thousands of statistics books on the subject if you don't believe me.


Since a wager saver bet wins with probability (amount won on bet which induced the wager saver/original bet size which induced the wager saver bet) where the amount won is a positive non-zero number less than the original bet size. The E(V) calculation is not incorrect. Please do not take my word for it. Look up the definition of expected value along with how the Wager Saver bet is calculated (Scientific Games/WMS website) if you don't believe me.

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Originally Posted by 13BucksanHourAP

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by Advantageplay

Wow, the above would be absolutely worthless. I could write a book on how that is 10000000000 percent not what they are doing. He also is a fool. He thinks he reinvented the wheel (prax) there is no new slot play that would be so advanced and so spur of the moment that he can’t check into a room since he may be called instantly and have to leave

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Suppose there is a slot (with a Wager Saver feature) with 85% RTP and a wager saver bet is presented because the player wagered $10 and lost $9 of that $10 wager ($10 balance in the machine to start). Noting that .85x $10 is the value of the free spin we have:
Wager Saver E(V) = (9/10)x (-1) + (1/10) x (the value of free spin) = (9/10)x -1 + (1/10) x .85 x $10 . So the Wager Saver E(V) is -$.05 .
If you wager $1 (the wager saver bet) and lose $0.05 that means the RTP of the wager saver bet is 95% rather than the 85% RTP of the slot. In my original post I mentioned both that it was conjecture along with that it might be a possible move in a portfolio of what might be many different plays. So he may not have used it. Nonetheless making a 95% RTP bet on a machine with 85% RTP makes my statement true that you gain RTP from a wager saver bet in my opinion.

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Yeah except you lose $1 x 10, not x 9 like your incorrect formula.

$1 goes in 10 times.
$8.50 comes out.
-$1.50
$19 in coin in, worth about $.10
Still -$1.40 to go...

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If you want, take a look at "https://youtu.be/vCwYN7NFm5E?t=67" .
You will see that a winning Wager Saver bet returns the Wager Saver bet plus the win from the free spin won on the Wager Saver bet.

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by 13BucksanHourAP

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Originally Posted by tableplay

Suppose there is a slot (with a Wager Saver feature) with 85% RTP and a wager saver bet is presented because the player wagered $10 and lost $9 of that $10 wager ($10 balance in the machine to start). Noting that .85x $10 is the value of the free spin we have:
Wager Saver E(V) = (9/10)x (-1) + (1/10) x (the value of free spin) = (9/10)x -1 + (1/10) x .85 x $10 . So the Wager Saver E(V) is -$.05 .
If you wager $1 (the wager saver bet) and lose $0.05 that means the RTP of the wager saver bet is 95% rather than the 85% RTP of the slot. In my original post I mentioned both that it was conjecture along with that it might be a possible move in a portfolio of what might be many different plays. So he may not have used it. Nonetheless making a 95% RTP bet on a machine with 85% RTP makes my statement true that you gain RTP from a wager saver bet in my opinion.

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Yeah except you lose $1 x 10, not x 9 like your incorrect formula.

$1 goes in 10 times.
$8.50 comes out.
-$1.50
$19 in coin in, worth about $.10
Still -$1.40 to go...

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If you want, take a look at "https://youtu.be/vCwYN7NFm5E?t=67" .
You will see that a winning Wager Saver bet returns the Wager Saver bet plus the win from the free spin won on the Wager Saver bet.

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That video shows that I'm correct and you're wrong, thanks.

7 minutes 57 seconds into the video -
$4.64 Wager Saver bet is placed and won resulting in a $6 spin
$6 spin results in a $2.76 base spin win and a bonus win of $72 for a $74.76 win
Machine credits after win - $74.76

The $4.64 bet is lost - it is not retuned like you claim. Show me where those $4.64 in wager saver credits are returned to player when he wins the wager saver?

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Originally Posted by 13BucksanHourAP

That video shows that I'm correct and you're wrong, thanks.

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You're welcome. I had stated that the Wager Saver exploration was conjecture (https://vegascasinotalk.com/forum/sh...l=1#post115465) and the conjecture was wrong: