Stop limits.

I have always argued against stop limits. Usually, it is in the context of a negative expectation player, like the former owner of this forum or even the tall tale telling Newell guy, who think stop limits, win limits or loss limits change anything as for as expectation. These folks always think stop limit changes a -Ev game to +Ev somehow. :confused:

The fact is whatever is going to happen the next round you play, next session, next day you play is going to happen, whether that play, round, session occurs in 2 minutes or 2 months. You aren't changing anything!

So that said, :D, I am stopping my play for the year, a very good year, after a significant winning play of the last couple weeks...in part to preserve a real nice year. Hey THAT sounds a lot like a stop limit! :D

There may be a touch of voodoo-ism thinking in there, but I usually quit for the year just after the Rodeo comes to town (which starts tomorrow) and now am choosing to do so just a wee bit early. Call it voodoo, but after last year horrendous in so many way, my blackjack/AP results included, I want to book this real nice year for me. I don't think I am changing any future results by stopping a bit early and that is the real voodoo-ism behind stop limits. But anyone thinking I am dipping into voodoo territory or being hypocritical of my stop limit position...feel free.

What do you think Maxpen, mickey, even my old friend BoSox and a couple other real players that I respect? Whimpy? voodoo, anti-Ap thinking? :cool:

Clearly there is value in quitting something while ahead to enjoy being ahead. If you don't see this then you're probably not as sharp as those who do. Now if you only value $ then it'd never make any sense. If you don't need money that much (don't value it) and value your time more then clearly don't gamble for a bit. Either to escape the brutality of a downswing or ride a win for awhile. Either way is valid thinking.

You do seem like you're dressing up the idea differently so your specific thinking might be a bit wonky.

Wheres Tanya

I think you’re just trying to troll Robby here.

Everyone who spends their life in casinos needs a mental break from that shit environment every once in awhile or else they end up being a 100% of the time bitter cynical asshole like Grosjean.

I have arguments to suggest that what you are doing makes sense. What you do requires skill, ongoing awareness, and planning. And you are not a tireless robot, so hunkering down and recharging may make some sense. Plus there is a covid angle. Allow me to elucidate.

1) No matter how much we would like to perceive ourselves as automatons doing what we do, we're not robots. Fatigue can set in. And I can tell you, it gets worse as you get older. So cutting matters short a bit can have some value long term. You can pound in some workouts in the weeks ahead so you are in even better physical shape next year. You can rest your brain a bit, and maybe -- LOL -- your eyes for those two table opportunities (that one's for Argentino). Rest more now, play more later, perhaps.

2) What I do is seasonal, not ongoing every week, so I have occasionally said that's a wrap without regard to trying to add some incremental profit to an already good year. A good example of this -- about 10 years ago, I was in a public website handicapping competition. I won 17 ATS games in a row. I had a 66-34 ATS record. I was second, and I was going to be second. The leader was unconscious, mainly with Pac 12 and Mountain West totals. And of course it was winner-take-all. There was no rule on number of games or anything, just an end date for the contest. I said, the hell with it, 66-34 ATS is a helluva monster handicapping record for the year. I call it a wrap. Privately, I bet a couple more games, but in that contest, I shut it down. I felt like the round 100 games figure had some PR value and losing the next game was going to muck it up more than winning the next game would enhance it.

3) How you schedule your physical and mental rest is on your shoulders. You know better than anyone how to pace yourself. If it's time for a break, take a break. You earned it.

4) You're heading (with the exception of the week immediately after rodeo) into busy season in Las Vegas with a new covid variant. May as well steer clear of crowds as much as possible until a new vaccine can deal with it. Shutting down for the next three or four weeks is not a bad idea from that perspective.


Think of it as a covid-conscious recharge, not win goal voodoo.

It isn't a stop win or a stop loss.
It's all one long game till you decide to never place another bet.
You decide to keep your records annually.
My records are continual.
I never stop win a positive play.
I never stop loss a positive play either.
I play till I break it off and after that move to the next situation.
Obviously, taking a vacation is fine but the less hours you put in the less you make... period.
Now if you all could instruct me how to make an easy 600 dollars a day I am still listening.
Why would anyone stop playing any day if they are ringing the cash register every day for 600 bills?

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

I have always argued against stop limits. Usually, it is in the context of a negative expectation player, like the former owner of this forum or even the tall tale telling Newell guy, who think stop limits, win limits or loss limits change anything as for as expectation. These folks always think stop limit changes a -Ev game to +Ev somehow. :confused:

The fact is whatever is going to happen the next round you play, next session, next day you play is going to happen, whether that play, round, session occurs in 2 minutes or 2 months. You aren't changing anything!

So that said, :D, I am stopping my play for the year, a very good year, after a significant winning play of the last couple weeks...in part to preserve a real nice year. Hey THAT sounds a lot like a stop limit! :D

There may be a touch of voodoo-ism thinking in there, but I usually quit for the year just after the Rodeo comes to town (which starts tomorrow) and now am choosing to do so just a wee bit early. Call it voodoo, but after last year horrendous in so many way, my blackjack/AP results included, I want to book this real nice year for me. I don't think I am changing any future results by stopping a bit early and that is the real voodoo-ism behind stop limits. But anyone thinking I am dipping into voodoo territory or being hypocritical of my stop limit position...feel free.

What do you think Maxpen, mickey, even my old friend BoSox and a couple other real players that I respect? Whimpy? voodoo, anti-Ap thinking? :cool:

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I say whatever floats your boat. The whole point of pursuing advantage play is the freedom that it brings to do what you want when you want.

That being said,,, what you are doing is not optimal if you care about gross return. Bottom line, you are forfeiting ev for whatever psychological benefit you are getting.

But if you operated 100% optimally to whatever you subscribe to then you would be a slave to that protocol.

So, do whatever you want. We all only have one life.

It's not exactly about recharging. Had plenty of "recharging' and pacing last year only playing about 6 months between the casino shutdown and a few self imposed breaks when I didn't feel comfortable playing. This year I didn't even start playing until April 1. So I have only played my normal game about 8 months, prior to this different opportunity the past couple weeks. I have learned to get more EV in with less rounds played, by selectively playing higher stakes during these unique times.

I could play another 2 weeks and win just a bit more and it would be the best year I ever had. Or I could play another 2 weeks and slide backwards 15-20 k and this would still be a very good year. If this was 2 years ago, or any year before that I would be chasing EV until the day I had decided to stop for the year. But after last year, my results, minimal income, I just feel like booking my decent year. I don't know, maybe sort of an internal victory dance in that when you go through such an extraordinary lousy year like I had last year, doubts seep in, even though after 18 years you understand the variance. So a year that has "righted" everything, I just want to "book it", take a little time off and move on to 2022 and see what that brings.

It's just that thought process, both thinking it and writing it just seems a little bit contradictory to what I have publicly argued. Seems a little hypocritical. I am ok with my "little hypocrital decision". Just thought I would throw it out there and see what everyone else thought. :cool:

On the other hand, maybe not hypocritical at all. Maybe just adjusting to changing and different situations. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by monet

It isn't a stop win or a stop loss.
It's all one long game till you decide to never place another bet.
You decide to keep your records annually.
My records are continual.
I never stop win a positive play.
I never stop loss a positive play either.
I play till I break it off and after that move to the next situation.
Obviously, taking a vacation is fine but the less hours you put in the less you make... period.
Now if you all could instruct me how to make an easy 600 dollars a day I am still listening.
Why would anyone stop playing any day if they are ringing the cash register every day for 600 bills?

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Ok, a couple things. As I am sure you know, with card counting we are not ringing the cash register every day for $600 or whatever amount we average. There are losing days and winning days, some fairly large in each direction.

As per "choosing" to keep my records annually. Not really me that chooses that. The Government chooses that. I don't want to get into how you keep records or what or IF you pay.....that is none of my business. But I do it the way I do it for a reason.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

I say whatever floats your boat. The whole point of pursuing advantage play is the freedom that it brings to do what you want when you want.

That being said,,, what you are doing is not optimal if you care about gross return. Bottom line, you are forfeiting ev for whatever psychological benefit you are getting.

But if you operated 100% optimally to whatever you subscribe to then you would be a slave to that protocol.

So, do whatever you want. We all only have one life.

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Good points.

BTW, I do lots of things that aren't optimal. If I was playing optimally, I really shouldn't play ANY -EV rounds.

I also don't minimum bet off the top which is a -EV situation or round. My neutral wager is a little higher so I can spread both ways.

I also don't use the huge spread that other card counters use. I use a moderate spread. Not optimal. I guess optimal would be betting table max in ALL +EV situations.

I play card counter's basic strategy, which of course is not optimal.

Most of these things I chose not optimal for longevity reasons, but I certainly am not a slave to optimal play and return. :cool: Ilike to think it is a balancing act.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

So, do whatever you want. We all only have one life.

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Revelation
2:11
20:6
20:14

IMO the scariest verse of them all.
Makes me shudder when reading it...
21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

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Originally Posted by mcap

Everyone who spends their life in casinos needs a mental break from that shit environment every once in awhile or else they end up being a 100% of the time bitter cynical asshole like Grosjean.

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You sir, are really harsh on King J. We all know he can be sarcastic and a bit snotty, but that is just his way. I don't think he is particularly being "bitter". I think that is the way he teaches. he wants to point a player in the right direction and have them figure some of it out for themselves. If he really wanted to be a dick, he would never share anything or try to help anyone. Anyway...whatever.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by monet

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

So, do whatever you want. We all only have one life.

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Revelation
2:11
20:6
20:14

IMO the scariest verse of them all.
Makes me shudder when reading it...
21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

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The Bible is heresay. It is different people's interpretations of things passed down.

Don't take everything so literally. Maybe someone had a bad day and interpreted something in the harshest or nastiest way. :rolleyes:

I talk to my God every day. He is not a vengeful man, woman, or spirit at all and I believe in my most dire times of need when I have asked for help, my God had come through for me.

It is just hard for me to accept some of the things written in the bible. Those are the words of men, not God, and certainly some of the things said, not my God.

But to each his own.

A BIT snotty? You’re too kind...

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Originally Posted by mcap

A BIT snotty? You’re too kind...

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Maybe you have had different dealing than I have. :confused:

I mean he has said things publicly about me that seem a little harsh. Things like I should be more advanced than card counting. So what. I am the salamander that he loves to put down. I play by my game plan, and goals and not his. :cool:

No I don’t know him beyond his writing and don’t get the impression I’d want to despite the knowledge he holds. Yeah he’s the gambling GOAT but he comes across like he absolutely hates life itself yet keeps doing it. Bitter was the wrong word. Mostly just unbelievably cynical to the extent you feel the need to invent a new word that goes beyond cynical. Too much damn time in the casino imo.

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Originally Posted by mcap

No I don’t know him beyond his writing and don’t get the impression I’d want to despite the knowledge he holds. Yeah he’s the gambling GOAT but he comes across like he absolutely hates life itself yet keeps doing it. Bitter was the wrong word. Mostly just unbelievably cynical to the extent you feel the need to invent a new word that goes beyond cynical. Too much damn time in the casino imo.

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Or too much damn time living, period. I think there's some kind of algorithmic scale -- once you hit 50, the cynicism seems to grow. It's not that you're seeing things that weren't always there. They were always there. But now you see them for what they are.

Quick postscript for kewlJ: I know I don't have to say this, but don't allow MDawg's ragging with his "kewlJ lost last year" to affect your decision-making. Don't worry about a high water mark for the year to brag about. Just do your thing.

I'll quit when I'm dead.

KJ is not really taking that much time off if he usually quits after the rodeo. Maybe a couple of weeks. December is slow so he would stick out more anyway. Congratulations on the good year.

Age and health means I don't try to play off all the EV anymore.

At some point the utility of trying to finish off every play is just not there. That is an interesting discussion to see. What people write off as beneath their time. If you're stuck at one place and nothing else to do, then time is worth little and doing every little thing might make sense. Just another way of killing time..

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

KJ is not really taking that much time off if he usually quits after the rodeo. Maybe a couple of weeks. December is slow so he would stick out more anyway. Congratulations on the good year.

Age and health means I don't try to play off all the EV anymore.

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What mickey said.

The older you get, the more each hour you have left is worth, relatively speaking.

Starting off a new thread with one of kew's many ongoing and uneducated lies doesn't exactly radiate the desire he has in trying to debunk how he leads a sour, unfulfilled life.

Playing my VP strategy never somehow "turned -EV into +EV plays"....nor was it ever identified as such. It very simply and VERY effectively provides the best opportunity for me to do in my own specified chunk of time what you say you just did within your own specified chunk of time--to get ahead and take a well-deserved break, for as long as a particular player chooses for his or her own particular reasons. And I guess you see....it kinda works, right? :)

Other than that (and your obvious craving to forum-post while most are showing they have other important parts of their lives to attend to) if a true AP takes time off, all they are doing is lowering their income. That's the cold hard truth of it. But there are a myriad of valid excuses, trade-offs, and other reasons not readily explicable, for doing this that come into play for everyone, and since no one walks 24/7 in anyone else's shoes, to criticize another for doing so is to show ignorance. And making shit up about why you're taking issue with other people's choices is never gonna be anything but a grinding internal struggle.

If only redietz could put down his thoughts in English instead of Red Chinese....

Singer do you have to troll every thread with your obvious jealousy?

Why do you blacks feel the need to comment on everything posted...even something that doesn't pertain to you since you are NOT nor never have been an AP, or winning player.

It's like talking through a movie at the theater. You people need to learn when to shut up.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Starting off a new thread with one of kew's many ongoing and uneducated lies doesn't exactly radiate the desire he has in trying to debunk how he leads a sour, unfulfilled life.

Playing my VP strategy never somehow "turned -EV into +EV plays"....nor was it ever identified as such. It very simply and VERY effectively provides the best opportunity for me to do in my own specified chunk of time what you say you just did within your own specified chunk of time--to get ahead and take a well-deserved break, for as long as a particular player chooses for his or her own particular reasons. And I guess you see....it kinda works, right? :)

Other than that (and your obvious craving to forum-post while most are showing they have other important parts of their lives to attend to) if a true AP takes time off, all they are doing is lowering their income. That's the cold hard truth of it. But there are a myriad of valid excuses, trade-offs, and other reasons not readily explicable, for doing this that come into play for everyone, and since no one walks 24/7 in anyone else's shoes, to criticize another for doing so is to show ignorance. And making shit up about why you're taking issue with other people's choices is never gonna be anything but a grinding internal struggle.

If only redietz could put down his thoughts in English instead of Red Chinese....

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Actually, you're dead wrong on the "if a true AP takes time off, all they are doing is lowering their income." If you're doing anything that requires judgement, like sports betting or poker, you need the best version of yourself. Any kind of fatigue degrades your abilities. And being in top physical and mental shape so you can maintain the best version of yourself as long as possible requires some kind of training so your physical and mental stamina hold up or are increased.

Therefore, taking time off can serve two purposes -- (1) it gives you rest time to recharge and (2) it provides time to train so your stamina, both mental and physical, is increased for further APing.

Anyone confused by my writing, as Rob usually is, please feel free to ask questions. I've trained every year for 45 years so I can hold up physically and mentally while wagering 24/7 during football seasons. Watching 40-some hours of football each week while wagering 24/7 is not a physically easy gig. Back in my 30's, my conditioning training was designed to match the 100% grade of the Marines circa 1975. Now that I'm old, I simply can't do that any longer, but I still manage to train every other day with the exception of September/October.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

KJ is not really taking that much time off if he usually quits after the rodeo. Maybe a couple of weeks. December is slow so he would stick out more anyway. Congratulations on the good year.

Age and health means I don't try to play off all the EV anymore.

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Thanks mickey. Rodeo week or 11 days now is a funny time. The city is crowded and casinos have lots of tables open, but really not that many rodeo people gamble, which is great for my style of play. It is prime opportunity for tracking multiple tables, something that in general opportunities are less frequent of late. But on the negative side, if you end up at a table with one of these cowboys, the game drags. They don't seem to do anything quickly, and that includes making a decision on their blackjack hand. They have that "mosey along" mentality with everything. :rolleyes:

After the rodeo leaves on the 11th, Vegas usually gets very quiet until Christmas Eve. Too quiet! Restaurants and shows shut down, tables are fewer. Not good for me for the reasons you stated.

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Originally Posted by redietz

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Starting off a new thread with one of kew's many ongoing and uneducated lies doesn't exactly radiate the desire he has in trying to debunk how he leads a sour, unfulfilled life.

Playing my VP strategy never somehow "turned -EV into +EV plays"....nor was it ever identified as such. It very simply and VERY effectively provides the best opportunity for me to do in my own specified chunk of time what you say you just did within your own specified chunk of time--to get ahead and take a well-deserved break, for as long as a particular player chooses for his or her own particular reasons. And I guess you see....it kinda works, right? :)

Other than that (and your obvious craving to forum-post while most are showing they have other important parts of their lives to attend to) if a true AP takes time off, all they are doing is lowering their income. That's the cold hard truth of it. But there are a myriad of valid excuses, trade-offs, and other reasons not readily explicable, for doing this that come into play for everyone, and since no one walks 24/7 in anyone else's shoes, to criticize another for doing so is to show ignorance. And making shit up about why you're taking issue with other people's choices is never gonna be anything but a grinding internal struggle.

If only redietz could put down his thoughts in English instead of Red Chinese....

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Actually, you're dead wrong on the "if a true AP takes time off, all they are doing is lowering their income." If you're doing anything that requires judgement, like sports betting or poker, you need the best version of yourself. Any kind of fatigue degrades your abilities. And being in top physical and mental shape so you can maintain the best version of yourself as long as possible requires some kind of training so your physical and mental stamina hold up or are increased.

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Of course he is dead wrong. THAT goes without saying when Singer posts now.

Not only is time off necessary to ensure an AP, any AP is at the top of their game, but for someone like me, it is all about not wearing out your welcome by over-playing and seeing the same pit folks too often. I did that in my first home base destination, Atlantic City.

I actually want to play as little as I can while accumulating the EV that I desire for the year and remaining within the betting limits that I have determined are well tolerated by each different casino and situation. It is a real balancing act.

One good thing about the whole covid situation is that I have been able to bump up and play higher limits than usual, meaning I can get that EV with less rounds played. It also means the swings and variance can be greater. I dealt with that last year when I basically doubled my stakes everywhere and immediately hit a long negative run. Playing fewer sessions means I didn't have as much play to recover. Basically, I got stuck in the short term and on the wrong side of the curve.

This year I have played higher stakes selectively, meaning on busy weekend or holiday times and played my regular stakes most other times, still reducing rounds played to earn the same EV. It has worked out a lot better for me and the reduced rounds increases longevity as long as those time of higher level play don't draw more attention. That is why I limit it to busier times.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Thanks mickey. Rodeo week or 11 days now is a funny time. The city is crowded and casinos have lots of tables open, but really not that many rodeo people gamble, which is great for my style of play. It is prime opportunity for tracking multiple tables, something that in general opportunities are less frequent of late. But on the negative side, if you end up at a table with one of these cowboys, the game drags. They don't seem to do anything quickly, and that includes making a decision on their blackjack hand. They have that "mosey along" mentality with everything. :rolleyes:

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Could you tell us how you go about tracking multiple tables? You literally mean "multiple" and not 2? You backcount multiple tables then sit down when one is decent? Or are you sitting down at one and able to watch another?

I really have no idea. I only tried counting once briefly. Not my thing.

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

Could you tell us how you go about tracking multiple tables? You literally mean "multiple" and not 2? You backcount multiple tables then sit down when one is decent? Or are you sitting down at one and able to watch another?

I really have no idea. I only tried counting once briefly. Not my thing.

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I don't remember exactly when, but it was early....back in my Atlantic City days. At that time I was playing low stakes and I didn't want to play through ALL negative counts for a different reason....I couldn't afford to. With 8 deck games that were in Atlantic City, the count can go significantly negative and stay there for the entire shoe. That can be 30-40 rounds with other players. Playing underfunded on a shoe string BR, I couldn't just sit there and play 40 rounds at true counts of -4, -5 while waiting for a new shoe. So I exited at that point to try to find a new game. Eventually I just started looking for that new game or opportunity before I had exited the first. It was just a natural progression.

Unfortunately the opportunities in AC were limited because tables were usually full and not all tables were limits that I could afford to play. So it was sort of an occasional thing. When I moved to Vegas with less crowded conditions, it became a much bigger part of my game.

Now I say multiple tables, in part to get my doubters all fired up, :D, but most of the time, 98% of the time, it is tracking one other table than what I am playing. There have been a few times that if everything else is just right, and there are tables on each side of me, and I have clear views, and they happen to be starting a new shuffle at the same time, I can track both (while playing my game) for a round or two at most. By that time I drop the lesser opportunity of the two and focus on the table with the better count.

I sort of view the whole exercise as a variation of the team call in approach used by the MIT teams and other teams. I think blackjack hall of famer, Al Francesco gets credit for the technique but who knows if someone did it prior. With this technique there is a spotter back counting several tables, dropping tables if the count goes negative, picking up new tables starting from a fresh shuffle and then calling in the big player or "gorilla" player to a positive advantage count. Tracking a second table is sort of playing both parts, on a smaller scale.

Bottom line, it allows a player to play many more rounds at max bet or significant advantage count that playing all at one table. If a player playing one table see's 10% counts @ say true count +3 or higher, tracking a second table can bump that number up close to 20%. Probably not quite double because there are times that the count at both tables are great and the player can only play one. There are also times you track a second table the count is growing strong and at the last second a player or two (sometimes backcounting card counters) jump in and gobble up the open seats. All that work, down the drain....those nasty card counters. :mad:

I am sure this little discussion will ignite the haters and naysayers (probably on several forums), but that is just them proving yet again, their ignorance on the subject. Blinded by their hate.

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

I really have no idea. I only tried counting once briefly. Not my thing.

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I should mention, that tracking a second table (or multiple tables) requires you to count a little differently sometimes. Unless the tables are very close, you may not be able to see the exact number on the cards. At this point, 'pips and paint' come into play. The face cards obviously all have paint and can be spotted from far away. The non face cards have pips (the little heart or club symbols on the cards correlating to the card number) so you look for a small number of pips. Doesn't really matter if you mistake a 3 (3 pips) for a 5 (five pips). Both are a +1 count.

It also doesn't matter if your secondary count at the second table is slightly off (a topic that gets former owner here fired up). Say you have a running count at the second table of +11 and it is really +12. so what? Both come out to about the same true count. All you are really trying to do is identify a situation, an advantage better than the game you are currently playing. :)

I know this may sound difficult and if you try it a few times, may think it too difficult, but if you play regularly, like almost anything it becomes second nature.

Kewlj didn’t mention but I’m sure he’s doing this as well, when you’re counting multiple tables you’re rarely doing it for more than a deck or two’s worth of the shoe, one of them gets to the point where count or amount of shoe left is uninteresting or one gets to where you know you’ll be betting into for a while so just concentrate on that one. When one drops to disinteresting you’re probably looking around for another nearby shuffle to start if available.

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Originally Posted by mcap

Kewlj didn’t mention but I’m sure he’s doing this as well, when you’re counting multiple tables you’re rarely doing it for more than a deck or two’s worth of the shoe, one of them gets to the point where count or amount of shoe left is uninteresting or one gets to where you know you’ll be betting into for a while so just concentrate on that one. When one drops to disinteresting you’re probably looking around for another nearby shuffle to start if available.

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TRUE, Mcap.

I have very shallow departure points or points that I give up on a shoe, both playing and tracking a second game. The only person I am aware of that has done some work on departure points is Don Schlesinger. There are probably others but he is the one I am aware of. My departure points or points that I give up on shoe, both playing and tracking are much more aggressive than Don's conclusions. I'm sure he would argue with me.

But the fact is I am not interested in a count say mildly negative turning around to become slightly positive or even mildly positive and slightly EV. I am looking for a TC of +3, +4 or more, where I place my max bet and the fact is that once a count goes negative, even mildly, the chances of it turning to the point I am looking for is minimal. It may occasionally happen, but it is not worth my time and effort any more. My circumstances of many games allows for my attitude on this. If I lived and played Pennsylvania for example with spread out casinos, I would have to adapt to something different.

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Originally Posted by redietz

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Starting off a new thread with one of kew's many ongoing and uneducated lies doesn't exactly radiate the desire he has in trying to debunk how he leads a sour, unfulfilled life.

Playing my VP strategy never somehow "turned -EV into +EV plays"....nor was it ever identified as such. It very simply and VERY effectively provides the best opportunity for me to do in my own specified chunk of time what you say you just did within your own specified chunk of time--to get ahead and take a well-deserved break, for as long as a particular player chooses for his or her own particular reasons. And I guess you see....it kinda works, right? :)

Other than that (and your obvious craving to forum-post while most are showing they have other important parts of their lives to attend to) if a true AP takes time off, all they are doing is lowering their income. That's the cold hard truth of it. But there are a myriad of valid excuses, trade-offs, and other reasons not readily explicable, for doing this that come into play for everyone, and since no one walks 24/7 in anyone else's shoes, to criticize another for doing so is to show ignorance. And making shit up about why you're taking issue with other people's choices is never gonna be anything but a grinding internal struggle.

If only redietz could put down his thoughts in English instead of Red Chinese....

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Actually, you're dead wrong on the "if a true AP takes time off, all they are doing is lowering their income." If you're doing anything that requires judgement, like sports betting or poker, you need the best version of yourself. Any kind of fatigue degrades your abilities. And being in top physical and mental shape so you can maintain the best version of yourself as long as possible requires some kind of training so your physical and mental stamina hold up or are increased.

Therefore, taking time off can serve two purposes -- (1) it gives you rest time to recharge and (2) it provides time to train so your stamina, both mental and physical, is increased for further APing.

Anyone confused by my writing, as Rob usually is, please feel free to ask questions. I've trained every year for 45 years so I can hold up physically and mentally while wagering 24/7 during football seasons. Watching 40-some hours of football each week while wagering 24/7 is not a physically easy gig. Back in my 30's, my conditioning training was designed to match the 100% grade of the Marines circa 1975. Now that I'm old, I simply can't do that any longer, but I still manage to train every other day with the exception of September/October.

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Weird. Just plain weird.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by redietz

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Starting off a new thread with one of kew's many ongoing and uneducated lies doesn't exactly radiate the desire he has in trying to debunk how he leads a sour, unfulfilled life.

Playing my VP strategy never somehow "turned -EV into +EV plays"....nor was it ever identified as such. It very simply and VERY effectively provides the best opportunity for me to do in my own specified chunk of time what you say you just did within your own specified chunk of time--to get ahead and take a well-deserved break, for as long as a particular player chooses for his or her own particular reasons. And I guess you see....it kinda works, right? :)

Other than that (and your obvious craving to forum-post while most are showing they have other important parts of their lives to attend to) if a true AP takes time off, all they are doing is lowering their income. That's the cold hard truth of it. But there are a myriad of valid excuses, trade-offs, and other reasons not readily explicable, for doing this that come into play for everyone, and since no one walks 24/7 in anyone else's shoes, to criticize another for doing so is to show ignorance. And making shit up about why you're taking issue with other people's choices is never gonna be anything but a grinding internal struggle.

If only redietz could put down his thoughts in English instead of Red Chinese....

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Actually, you're dead wrong on the "if a true AP takes time off, all they are doing is lowering their income." If you're doing anything that requires judgement, like sports betting or poker, you need the best version of yourself. Any kind of fatigue degrades your abilities. And being in top physical and mental shape so you can maintain the best version of yourself as long as possible requires some kind of training so your physical and mental stamina hold up or are increased.

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Of course he is dead wrong. THAT goes without saying when Singer posts now.

Not only is time off necessary to ensure an AP, any AP is at the top of their game, but for someone like me, it is all about not wearing out your welcome by over-playing and seeing the same pit folks too often. I did that in my first home base destination, Atlantic City.

I actually want to play as little as I can while accumulating the EV that I desire for the year and remaining within the betting limits that I have determined are well tolerated by each different casino and situation. It is a real balancing act.

One good thing about the whole covid situation is that I have been able to bump up and play higher limits than usual, meaning I can get that EV with less rounds played. It also means the swings and variance can be greater. I dealt with that last year when I basically doubled my stakes everywhere and immediately hit a long negative run. Playing fewer sessions means I didn't have as much play to recover. Basically, I got stuck in the short term and on the wrong side of the curve.

This year I have played higher stakes selectively, meaning on busy weekend or holiday times and played my regular stakes most other times, still reducing rounds played to earn the same EV. It has worked out a lot better for me and the reduced rounds increases longevity as long as those time of higher level play don't draw more attention. That is why I limit it to busier times.

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Naturally you needed to produce another bs-laced essay just to make yourself feel better about my hitting the nail on the head about you yet again.

Any gambling-town AP who can't get a decent break from the action with a few good night's sleep and several errand-filled days, is weak and confused to begin with.

You're so full of shit with your stories kew. Most people who concoct that kind of nonsense can do it without busting up the serenity of a forum or needing to post multiple long-winded stories/setting the records "straight" in order that they get a pat on the back from a weirdo like redietz. And they CERTAINLY have no need whatsoever to continuously evoke Nersesian's (or whatever his name is) just to pretend they know their stuff.

You step in your own traps kew. And you know it.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by redietz

Actually, you're dead wrong on the "if a true AP takes time off, all they are doing is lowering their income." If you're doing anything that requires judgement, like sports betting or poker, you need the best version of yourself. Any kind of fatigue degrades your abilities. And being in top physical and mental shape so you can maintain the best version of yourself as long as possible requires some kind of training so your physical and mental stamina hold up or are increased.

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Of course he is dead wrong. THAT goes without saying when Singer posts now.

Not only is time off necessary to ensure an AP, any AP is at the top of their game, but for someone like me, it is all about not wearing out your welcome by over-playing and seeing the same pit folks too often. I did that in my first home base destination, Atlantic City.

I actually want to play as little as I can while accumulating the EV that I desire for the year and remaining within the betting limits that I have determined are well tolerated by each different casino and situation. It is a real balancing act.

One good thing about the whole covid situation is that I have been able to bump up and play higher limits than usual, meaning I can get that EV with less rounds played. It also means the swings and variance can be greater. I dealt with that last year when I basically doubled my stakes everywhere and immediately hit a long negative run. Playing fewer sessions means I didn't have as much play to recover. Basically, I got stuck in the short term and on the wrong side of the curve.

This year I have played higher stakes selectively, meaning on busy weekend or holiday times and played my regular stakes most other times, still reducing rounds played to earn the same EV. It has worked out a lot better for me and the reduced rounds increases longevity as long as those time of higher level play don't draw more attention. That is why I limit it to busier times.

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Naturally you needed to produce another bs-laced essay just to make yourself feel better about my hitting the nail on the head about you yet again.

Any gambling-town AP who can't get a decent break from the action with a few good night's sleep and several errand-filled days, is weak and confused to begin with.

You're so full of shit with your stories kew. Most people who concoct that kind of nonsense can do it without busting up the serenity of a forum or needing to post multiple long-winded stories/setting the records "straight" in order that they get a pat on the back from a weirdo like redietz. And they CERTAINLY have no need whatsoever to continuously evoke Nersesian's (or whatever his name is) just to pretend they know their stuff.

You step in your own traps kew. And you know it.

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Your buddy the UnKool1, has made up for lost time by posting his usual marathon length posts 8-10 minutes apart in quick succession, putting Marathon Mission himself to complete shame. 146 doesn't have a hope in hell !

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

I really have no idea. I only tried counting once briefly. Not my thing.

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I should mention, that tracking a second table (or multiple tables) requires you to count a little differently sometimes. Unless the tables are very close, you may not be able to see the exact number on the cards. At this point, 'pips and paint' come into play. The face cards obviously all have paint and can be spotted from far away. The non face cards have pips (the little heart or club symbols on the cards correlating to the card number) so you look for a small number of pips. Doesn't really matter if you mistake a 3 (3 pips) for a 5 (five pips). Both are a +1 count.

It also doesn't matter if your secondary count at the second table is slightly off (a topic that gets former owner here fired up). Say you have a running count at the second table of +11 and it is really +12. so what? Both come out to about the same true count. All you are really trying to do is identify a situation, an advantage better than the game you are currently playing. :)

I know this may sound difficult and if you try it a few times, may think it too difficult, but if you play regularly, like almost anything it becomes second nature.

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So... multiple tables? or just 1 2nd one?

I'm just thinking how this would play out. I really have no clue. TBH I will never be a competent counter and I've never tried to be one. Keeping track of counts is clearly not my thing but thats ok.

Does it work better from certain seats or do you multi-count from all the tables equally?

Also Kewl a lot about this comes down to your monthly nut. I bought an RV to get out of my parent's basement.

Rob bought one to get out of his kid's basement.

Same difference.

but point is your time off has to be weighed versus how much you need income..

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

Also Kewl a lot about this comes down to your monthly nut. I bought an RV to get out of my parent's basement.

Rob bought one to get out of his kid's basement.

Same difference.

but point is your time off has to be weighed versus how much you need income..

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You live in an RV? Condolences. We tried it for 5 years IN A NEWELL and it got really old. Now we leave a small camper up at Tahoe and use it in the summer.

Did you really live with your parents until recently? Only someone like redietz could explain something so strange.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

Also Kewl a lot about this comes down to your monthly nut. I bought an RV to get out of my parent's basement.

Rob bought one to get out of his kid's basement.

Same difference.

but point is your time off has to be weighed versus how much you need income..

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You live in an RV? Condolences. We tried it for 5 years IN A NEWELL and it got really old. Now we leave a small camper up at Tahoe and use it in the summer.

Did you really live with your parents until recently? Only someone like redietz could explain something so strange.

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Translation from Singerese:

Rob's eyes and general health are so bad, he's not allowed to drive anymore.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Probably a side effect of having to take triple the usual dose of Viagara to prop up the nine-incher. Bad long-term visual effects. But it could happen to anybody. I understand that some of the more common anti-cholesterol drugs are also hard on the eyes.

Translating for Rob is a piece of cake.

Regarding accountinquestion, Rob's never quite gotten the hang of ironic humor. Last I checked, by the way, 27 million young adults were living with their parents. Roughly 80 million Americans live in "shared households." And about 14% of adults living in someone else's tax-defined household are a parent of the household head, so don't feel badly, Rob. It's a common arrangement.

My late wife had a Ph.D. in demography. Many friends are sociologists. I try to keep abreast.

In Rob's world (a fucked up place I wouldn't want to set foot) a person in their 20's, racked with debt from college, working a low paying job, probably not even in the field for which they went to college, living with their parents for a couple years while they bank a little money is looked down on, but a 72 year old and his wife, living with and mooching off his kids for a decade now is perfectly acceptable. Strange, hypocritical place, that Rob's world is. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by redietz

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Probably a side effect of having to take triple the usual dose of Viagara to prop up the nine-incher. Bad long-term visual effects. But it could happen to anybody. I understand that some of the more common anti-cholesterol drugs are also hard on the eyes.

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Redietz, can we just stop with the 9 inch fantasy bullshit. In another thread you laid out some of the Singer bullshit, about the phony RV, phony pictures inside an RV on the dealership lot, The phony ad placed in an RV publication with like one picture taken from the outside, the sale of said half a million RV to someone overseas in like 24 hours, sight unseen, because that is how people make such a purchase. :rolleyes:

You neglected to mention the phony bill of sales with no company letterhead, logo and all signatures in the same handwriting. And these were all lies to cover the other lies...the double up bug claim he stole and the magnificent singer progression system with it's ever-changing timeline. So really if there is anybody that believes anything about a 9 inch pecker, well there is someone out there looking to sell them a bridge.

The only thing 9 inches on Rob is his nose. That is one area that he didn't inherit from his African ancestors. Who knows, maybe Rob has a little Chinese genes in him. No doubt he has had a little Chinese DNA inside him. :cool:

Oh I forgot to mention because Rob's real name is known (from an unpaid gig as a gambling writer), people can and have looked him up.

This is guy who claims to have made 3 million from the double up bug (a claim he stole), claims to have made what is it now that he has changed his story....half a million from a progressive wagering system, with "special" less optimal plays, and let's not forget, decades of secret 'James Bond' like work for the government overseas.

And what do you find when you look him up? A man with little to no money, no assets, never owned a property, living and mooching off his children. :rolleyes: While there is no property owned, no RV owned, there are records of bankruptcies, evictions, and other judgements against. I will even leave out mention of the other item that I have mentioned, since that has been removed, either by his doing or just time passed.

So bankruptcies, evictions, judgements against, no property ever owned (including the fantasy RV)...does that match with 20 years of Singers made up claims? End of case. :cool:

And by the way, contrast that with myself. My name and address was recently posted on two different forums and having now been removed, I am told it is circulating around via PM (can anyone confirm?) While I am not happy about this, the same trolls that posted and are circulating that information have looked me up, enabling them to confirm where I live....that I own the high-rise condo (with my brother) just as I said. Anyone looking will see ownership of a property and previous ownership of 3 others and no judgements, evictions, nor bankruptcies. Imagine that? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

Does it work better from certain seats or do you multi-count from all the tables equally?

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For most table configurations, of tables in a row next to each other, it is the middle seat or if 6 seats, either of the two middle seats. This mean because of the curvature of the table any other players at you table will not be blocking your view. It also allows you to see the tables on both sides, without swiveling your head like the girl from The Exorcist movie.

While no one at your table will block your view, there is one key seat at each table, left or right that can. As long as that key seat at either table is vacant, you usually have a clear view of the entire playing area.

As I have said many times, circumstances have to be just right, including the speed of the game at your own table. If you are playing heads up or maybe with one other player and a reasonably fast dealer, you will not be able to keep up and utilize this technique. But every once in a while, maybe a couple times a week for me, you find yourself able to and when that occurs, your expected value (EV) and win rate is significantly higher (pretty much double). I use 1.75 of my normal EV and long-term results are pretty much in line with that.

It isn't something I go looking for or seek out. As a matter of fact, I play many places that don't even have 2 blackjack tables open next to each other. But when conditions are right, it is a significant bump to expectation and results. (even if that secondary count is off slightly due to missed cards).

Again, I know little about blackjack counting but it seems very suspicious to me to have your eyes darting from one side to the other to keep up with counting. You'd appear like a deranged broken Chucky doll, no?

In fact wouldn't your neck have to crane back and forth to some degree? You don't have peripheral vision that great at the edges of 160 degrees or whatever your field of view would need to be. No?

It all sounds fishy to me but whatever. I can see how one could count a 2nd table but not _multiple_ tables. Fascinating.

Anything over one is multiple

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

Again, I know little about blackjack counting but it seems very suspicious to me to have your eyes darting from one side to the other to keep up with counting. You'd appear like a deranged broken Chucky doll, no?

In fact wouldn't your neck have to crane back and forth to some degree? You don't have peripheral vision that great at the edges of 160 degrees or whatever your field of view would need to be. No?

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I'll tell ya what? Give it a try. Go to a casino that has multiple table in a row, sit in the middle seat and look to the table to your right. If the key seat is open and you have a clear view of the playing surface, you can almost see it while looking straight ahead via that peripheral vision. If not it is really a matter of an inch or two. It's like looking at 1:00 angle and you will have that view. Try in and get back to me. :)

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Originally Posted by mcap

Anything over one is multiple

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That is correct. If you are counting cards and playing, you are "tracking" a table. If you are doing so and tracking a second game next to you, you are tracking multiple tables. I don't know what is so hard to understand. :confused:

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

Again, I know little about blackjack counting but it seems very suspicious to me to have your eyes darting from one side to the other to keep up with counting. You'd appear like a deranged broken Chucky doll, no?

In fact wouldn't your neck have to crane back and forth to some degree? You don't have peripheral vision that great at the edges of 160 degrees or whatever your field of view would need to be. No?

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I'll tell ya what? Give it a try. Go to a casino that has multiple table in a row, sit in the middle seat and look to the table to your right. If the key seat is open and you have a clear view of the playing surface, you can almost see it while looking straight ahead via that peripheral vision. If not it is really a matter of an inch or two. It's like looking at 1:00 angle and you will have that view. Try in and get back to me. :)

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So you're saying you count 1 table on each side without moving your eyes?

I wear glasses so it won't work as glasses don't begin to cover that area of a person's view.

I mean, I guess maybe if I had proper vision I'd be able to discern faces from pips at like 2:40 and 9:20 but my vision isn't even good enough to attempt such a feat. I'm too myopic.

Too bad because I'd go downstairs and give it a try otherwise.

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

So you're saying you count 1 table on each side without moving your eyes?

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Come on dude! You are slipping into coach belly and Alan territory here with your twisting things.

Tracking a second table is rare. You need a decent size casino with a fair number of tables open. (think strip casinos or south point). And other conditions and circumstances have to be just right.

Tracking two other table (from the one you are playing) is very rare. And it can only be done for a couple rounds at best. For the second half of Novemeber I played and focused on a game with a beatable side bet, until it was shut down, so I didn't play my regular game/style, But I know I tracked and jumped to a second table just before that in early November, last time I was playing regularly. I am trying to think of last time I tracked 2 other tables. Maybe earlier this year. Maybe not even this year. I don't remember. It is rare and it is becoming rarer as there are fewer and fewer regular blackjack tables with the influxion of so many new game (with higher house edges).

Don't try to make it out that I play one game and track 2 other tables regularly.

Now that said, it is all a progression. For anyone that counts cards regularly, either as a professional or just serious player, or even recreational that plays a lot, they they naturally start expanding things. You walk by a table and glance at the cards on the felt for half a second and pick up the count. Maybe jump into a good count. That type of thing.

Most profession and serious players now exit at least some of the negative counts. The days of sitting at one table and playing all are all but gone for any kind of serious player. Playing through all those negative counts requires a huge spread to make any real money and you will be noticed quickly.

When you play that style (exiting at least some negative counts), you find a new game or opportunity after exiting the first. Eventually you just start looking for that new opportunity before you have even exited the first. It is just a progression that falls into place. I never woke up one morning and said, I am going to track multiple tables. It just happens. You just start seeking that next game or opportunity.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by mcap

Anything over one is multiple

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That is correct. If you are counting cards and playing, you are "tracking" a table. If you are doing so and tracking a second game next to you, you are tracking multiple tables. I don't know what is so hard to understand. :confused:

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He presumably thinks it needs to be over two to be multiple. It IS difficult to understand how one would think that.

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

Again, I know little about blackjack counting but it seems very suspicious to me to have your eyes darting from one side to the other to keep up with counting. You'd appear like a deranged broken Chucky doll, no?

In fact wouldn't your neck have to crane back and forth to some degree? You don't have peripheral vision that great at the edges of 160 degrees or whatever your field of view would need to be. No?

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I'll tell ya what? Give it a try. Go to a casino that has multiple table in a row, sit in the middle seat and look to the table to your right. If the key seat is open and you have a clear view of the playing surface, you can almost see it while looking straight ahead via that peripheral vision. If not it is really a matter of an inch or two. It's like looking at 1:00 angle and you will have that view. Try in and get back to me. :)

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So you're saying you count 1 table on each side without moving your eyes?

I wear glasses so it won't work as glasses don't begin to cover that area of a person's view.

I mean, I guess maybe if I had proper vision I'd be able to discern faces from pips at like 2:40 and 9:20 but my vision isn't even good enough to attempt such a feat. I'm too myopic.

Too bad because I'd go downstairs and give it a try otherwise.

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Account, I know nothing about blackjack, but when this topic was introduced, I went into a handful of Las Vegas casinos and measured the distances between empty tables with a tape measure (nobody bothered me). I measured with me standing behind a middle seat, and I checked the middle seat adjacent and the farthest seat distances. They did vary a bit, casino to casino. Then I went home and laid out cards at those distances. I did okay at the middle-to-middle card identifying, and I could tell pips from not pips at the farthest distances. My eyes suck, by the way.

Now I'm not saying this would translate into seeing between people and coping with movement during live games and all that, but the basic visual acuity to do it unquestionably is available to anyone with reasonable eyesight.

The most valuable thing I got out of the discussion, and it's obvious but I had never framed it this way, is that ALL counts are PARTIAL counts. So not having perfect counts or anything close to perfect counts is really not germane. What matters is that any count provides some information. Not being a blackjack player, that hadn't really occurred to me. It's an obvious fact, but I had never thought about it that way.

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Originally Posted by mcap

Anything over one is multiple

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In the most technical sense but usually when people say multiple they mean 3 or more otherwise the word is not used. The dictionary definition uses the word "several". Is 2 also "several"?

This has always been my belief.

But yes 2 is a multiple but in that regard 1 is also a multiple. If your cap on something is 2, you don't use multiple unless you're being misleading IMO.

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Originally Posted by redietz

The most valuable thing I got out of the discussion, and it's obvious but I had never framed it this way, is that ALL counts are PARTIAL counts. So not having perfect counts or anything close to perfect counts is really not germane. What matters is that any count provides some information. Not being a blackjack player, that hadn't really occurred to me. It's an obvious fact, but I had never thought about it that way.

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Very good redietz. :)

Suppose I sit down at a 6 deck game, very average and mediocre penetration of 1.5 decks cut off or 75% penetration. I start counting and count perfectly or maybe making a very occasional error to allow for the human element. many small cards come out. The running counts goes to +12 with 3 decks remaining of which 1.5 will be played. That is a +4 true count or at least 1.5% player advantage. The player is at an advantage because there are more 10's and aces left in the deck to come out which favor the player. So I play through that 1.5 decks until the shuffle comes out betting my max bets. Maybe I win, maybe I lose.

So when the cut card comes out the running count is +9 or +10. Guess what? all those excess 10's and aces never came out. They were behind the cut card never to have been played. That is because the whole count, the whole 4.5 decks that I counted were really only a partial count. It hasn't been a complete count since the days they dealt to the last card. So every count is a partial count. There are cards unseen and uncounted, whether they are behind the cut card and never played or whether you missed a card or two or counted a 7 as a low card when it was not.

Partial counts are what we have today's world. But if you increase you wagers based on that partial count and perceived advantage. you will win (longterm) because you are playing with an advantage even based on that partial count. This is proven mathematically. I credit Stanford Wong for it because it is the basis behind "wonging" into a partial advantageous count for which he is known. Probably was someone else before him that first figured it out though.

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Originally Posted by redietz

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

I'll tell ya what? Give it a try. Go to a casino that has multiple table in a row, sit in the middle seat and look to the table to your right. If the key seat is open and you have a clear view of the playing surface, you can almost see it while looking straight ahead via that peripheral vision. If not it is really a matter of an inch or two. It's like looking at 1:00 angle and you will have that view. Try in and get back to me. :)

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So you're saying you count 1 table on each side without moving your eyes?

I wear glasses so it won't work as glasses don't begin to cover that area of a person's view.

I mean, I guess maybe if I had proper vision I'd be able to discern faces from pips at like 2:40 and 9:20 but my vision isn't even good enough to attempt such a feat. I'm too myopic.

Too bad because I'd go downstairs and give it a try otherwise.

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Account, I know nothing about blackjack, but when this topic was introduced, I went into a handful of Las Vegas casinos and measured the distances between empty tables with a tape measure (nobody bothered me). I measured with me standing behind a middle seat, and I checked the middle seat adjacent and the farthest seat distances. They did vary a bit, casino to casino. Then I went home and laid out cards at those distances. I did okay at the middle-to-middle card identifying, and I could tell pips from not pips at the farthest distances. My eyes suck, by the way.

Now I'm not saying this would translate into seeing between people and coping with movement during live games and all that, but the basic visual acuity to do it unquestionably is available to anyone with reasonable eyesight.

The most valuable thing I got out of the discussion, and it's obvious but I had never framed it this way, is that ALL counts are PARTIAL counts. So not having perfect counts or anything close to perfect counts is really not germane. What matters is that any count provides some information. Not being a blackjack player, that hadn't really occurred to me. It's an obvious fact, but I had never thought about it that way.

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Oh I know you can do it. I don't think it is an incredible feat. I'm just picturing how it'd play out and I see chucky doll eyes. There are similar things in really good draw players. The good players get sneaky about trying to see how people fuck with their cards. They often use peripheral vision to disguise this fact. The guys at the top (in my circles) do that stuff but I've never incorporated it I just catch them sometimes because I'm lazy about my card handling.

I lose a lot on my peripheral vision but that is because I'm myopic. So I can't even begin to test whether I could do this. I guess I could hold my glasses at a weird angle to my face.

Yes, you shouldn't need a perfect count. At some point you go too far with being loosey goosey just like you can go too far having a perfect count. That could lead to mental fatigue. Everything is a balance. Yes, I believe Kewl could sit at a table in an empty casino and count 2 tables at once if everything lined up at once. Yes, count doesn't need to be perfect.

I guess the chucky doll's eyes didn't flop around so that was a rather poor description. I don't know - maybe my peripheral vision is only bad because of my myopia and reliance on glasses.

So If I sometimes track 2 tables and occasionally track 3, I can't say I track multiple tables? :confused: I think we are getting real sidetracked on a nit-picking type thing here.

But I have a pretty good example to give. Baseball tracks multiple hit games by players. Gues what qualifies? 2 or more. :cool:

It’s almost a pan pamb situation.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

So you're saying you count 1 table on each side without moving your eyes?

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Come on dude! You are slipping into coach belly and Alan territory here with your twisting things.

Tracking a second table is rare. You need a decent size casino with a fair number of tables open. (think strip casinos or south point). And other conditions and circumstances have to be just right.

Tracking two other table (from the one you are playing) is very rare. And it can only be done for a couple rounds at best. For the second half of Novemeber I played and focused on a game with a beatable side bet, until it was shut down, so I didn't play my regular game/style, But I know I tracked and jumped to a second table just before that in early November, last time I was playing regularly. I am trying to think of last time I tracked 2 other tables. Maybe earlier this year. Maybe not even this year. I don't remember. It is rare and it is becoming rarer as there are fewer and fewer regular blackjack tables with the influxion of so many new game (with higher house edges).

Don't try to make it out that I play one game and track 2 other tables regularly.

Now that said, it is all a progression. For anyone that counts cards regularly, either as a professional or just serious player, or even recreational that plays a lot, they they naturally start expanding things. You walk by a table and glance at the cards on the felt for half a second and pick up the count. Maybe jump into a good count. That type of thing.

Most profession and serious players now exit at least some of the negative counts. The days of sitting at one table and playing all are all but gone for any kind of serious player. Playing through all those negative counts requires a huge spread to make any real money and you will be noticed quickly.

When you play that style (exiting at least some negative counts), you find a new game or opportunity after exiting the first. Eventually you just start looking for that new opportunity before you have even exited the first. It is just a progression that falls into place. I never woke up one morning and said, I am going to track multiple tables. It just happens. You just start seeking that next game or opportunity.

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Then just say I sometimes count down a 2nd table or whatever. When you say multiple you suggested a floor of 2 possibly 3. Now it has been clarified. I still don't know why you'd want to sit at the seat to maximize the difference of angle to your field of view. I'd think other seats would have been choice, but not the middle seat. Then 2 tables, why that seat? You'd take that seat if you're doing multiple tables but thats super rare. Confused but I'm also clearly playing the role of Belly Jr. Kewlj is one of the best. I'm curious what all is possible. Anyone who can make it that far in Vegas grinding out the same gig for so many years is at the top of that game.

Shit I have a hard time finding 3:2 outside of el cortez or plaza but I'm not exactly scouting for it.

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Originally Posted by mcap

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by mcap

Anything over one is multiple

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That is correct. If you are counting cards and playing, you are "tracking" a table. If you are doing so and tracking a second game next to you, you are tracking multiple tables. I don't know what is so hard to understand. :confused:

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He presumably thinks it needs to be over two to be multiple. It IS difficult to understand how one would think that.

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1 is also a multiple.

I mean maybe my understanding of when to use multiple is flawed. I can go with that. If you read the dictionary definition it alludes to several. With multiple you are suggesting a floor of either 2 or 3. Now he laid it out so he doesn't seem like the 5 million dollar man.

I can't believe we are back on this multi table counting discussion. Just go to a casino and sit down at a table while games are in progress. If you can't see action at another table than your own then you are blind. Or the casino is packed.....RIP

Wait it was the 6 million dollar man. Kewlj is the 6 million dollar man. Using his amped up superpower skills to keep people the likes of Rob Singer and Mdawg in line and counting multiple tables.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CPJ-AbCsT8

SOrry guys needed to finish off edibles for trip home.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

I can't believe we are back on this multi table counting discussion. Just go to a casino and sit down at a table while games are in progress. If you can't see action at another table than your own then you are blind. Or the casino is packed.....RIP

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Yea, well I'm probably eating shit on this but I have 0 experience. If you other guys say you can do it. I never said you couldn't, I just feel it'd be suspicious as fuck but I guess if you have no heat to begin with then who is going to notice? Ok I won't give Kewlj shit anymore for the rest of the year. He's an ok guy. I won't be going coach belly.

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

I won't be going coach belly.

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You are really going more Alan than coach belly. You are making the exact arguments Alan has made for a few years now, including recently on another forum, I wasn't even on. He has even used the super eyesight argument. No super eyesight or powers necessary.

I will tell you what...here is a little exercise I suggested to Alan. Tape a few playing cards (normal size, no jumbo or anything) to a wall. Back up 10-12 feet. Can you see what that card is? Of course you can...well assuming you are not totally blind. Well 12 feet is probably double the distance you are looking at the neighboring table. So let's just remove the eyesight thing from the equation.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

I won't be going coach belly.

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You are really going more Alan than coach belly. You are making the exact arguments Alan has made for a few years now, including recently on another forum, I wasn't even on. He has even used the super eyesight argument. No super eyesight or powers necessary.

I will tell you what...here is a little exercise I suggested to Alan. Tape a few playing cards (normal size, no jumbo or anything) to a wall. Back up 10-12 feet. Can you see what that card is? Of course you can...well assuming you are not totally blind. Well 12 feet is probably double the distance you are looking at the neighboring table. So let's just remove the eyesight thing from the equation.

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Read what I said. My issue isn't that it isn't possible. My issues is that your eyes would dart around so much but I guess you can abandon it when pit comes around. It isn't like something you do on the regular as part of play as you clarified later.

For some reason I'm fairly doubtful Alan is making the same arguments as you have yet to understand my main point.

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

Read what I said. My issue isn't that it isn't possible. My issues is that your eyes would dart around so much but I guess you can abandon it when pit comes around. It isn't like something you do on the regular as part of play as you clarified later.

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Maybe other players feel differently but I don't feel looking around is anything. As the matter of fact it is what I do when I am only playing my one game. I don't want to be focused on every card coming out, so I look around, at the nearby TV, at a nearby table and the action there, even if the nearby table is roulette or craps or something, at people passing by. Anything but focusing on card after card coming out. I don't count each card. I use what is called the cancel method. And that is once all or nearly all cards are dealt, I glance at the table high cards cancelling low cards, neutral cards, sort of become invisible and you pick up the count in a fraction, literally a fraction of a second. This is also what allows a player to glance at a table as walking by and immediately pick up a count.

Anyway I see nothing unusual or telling about a player looking around, although as previously stated, I don't move my head or if I do it really is just slightly.

Now something suspicious would be a player standing behind a couple tables backcounting. That gets noticed by both pit and other players. That is why I have never gone to that technique. But a player looking around a bit, I see nothing unusual about that. Maybe others have a different take.

As a matter of fact, I would say the most suspicious thing is the jump to the next table itself. Players jump around a lot these days, but I like to throw in a little acting, or comment. Saying something about having won with that dealer before, or if you have lost a couple hands, "you are too hot". That type of thing. I still think it draws a little attention, which is why I will only make one such jump and then exit the casino at the next exit trigger. I mean if you did that jump 4 or 5 times at the same pit, it would be much harder to pull off.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

Read what I said. My issue isn't that it isn't possible. My issues is that your eyes would dart around so much but I guess you can abandon it when pit comes around. It isn't like something you do on the regular as part of play as you clarified later.

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Maybe other players feel differently but I don't feel looking around is anything. As the matter of fact it is what I do when I am only playing my one game. I don't want to be focused on every card coming out, so I look around, at the nearby TV, at a nearby table and the action there, even if the nearby table is roulette or craps or something, at people passing by. Anything but focusing on card after card coming out. I don't count each card. I use what is called the cancel method. And that is once all or nearly all cards are dealt, I glance at the table high cards cancelling low cards, neutral cards, sort of become invisible and you pick up the count in a fraction, literally a fraction of a second. This is also what allows a player to glance at a table as walking by and immediately pick up a count.

Anyway I see nothing unusual or telling about a player looking around, although as previously stated, I don't move my head or if I do it really is just slightly.

Now something suspicious would be a player standing behind a couple tables backcounting. That gets noticed by both pit and other players. That is why I have never gone to that technique. But a player looking around a bit, I see nothing unusual about that. Maybe others have a different take.

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You're not looking around, you're specifically repeatedly looking to something at the periphery of your vision. Thats why I asked what seat. That seems weird to me. If you're not in the 2 middle seats, I can see counting a 2nd table pretty easily. It was this suggestion of a third table at times and me thinking you sat in the middle seats for that.

I would think that you'd want a seat at the edges of a table so that you can see the 2nd table without much strain and pay attention to both with relative ease. It is true that people don't obscure you as much when you have the middle seats but it would make your repetitive behavior suspicious but it is a guess.

Anyway, I'm done with this. I really don't have an educated opinion, I'm just explaining how I see it as a layperson who has played a reasonable amount of blackjack in their life. No more trolling of you.

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

Anyway, I'm done with this. I really don't have an educated opinion,

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This is true, but yet you continue to have an opinion. :cool:

Only thing I will ask before we conclude is for you to explain to me how sitting in any other seat provides a view of another table next to you? :confused:

If you are at 1st base or the seat next to it, you can't see the table behind you unless you have eyes in the back of your head. You can't see the table to the left because any players at YOUR table sitting at 3rd base or the seat next to it will be blocking you before you even consider players at the next table.

Sitting at 3rd base or the seat next it is just the opposite, players at YOUR table at first base will be blocking you. The thing about the middle seat(s) is that because of the curvature of the table, no one at you table is blocking anything.

I would think if it is something you employed, you'd manage players being in your way. Players at other table can also obstruct you regardless of which seat you're in.

Yes, I understand you have best view from middle seats but it would also be most awkward. Players can get in your way regardless and middle seats help fix that.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

Anyway, I'm done with this. I really don't have an educated opinion,

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This is true, but yet you continue to have an opinion. :cool:

Only thing I will ask before we conclude is for you to explain to me how sitting in any other seat provides a view of another table next to you? :confused:

If you are at 1st base or the seat next to it, you can't see the table behind you unless you have eyes in the back of your head. You can't see the table to the left because any players at YOUR table sitting at 3rd base or the seat next to it will be blocking you before you even consider players at the next table.

Sitting at 3rd base or the seat next it is just the opposite, players at YOUR table at first base will be blocking you. The thing about the middle seat(s) is that because of the curvature of the table, no one at you table is blocking anything.

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I have an educated opinion: you are full of shit.