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I understand that the strip is the worst RTP at 85%. I've never heard of machines being under 85%. At least not the mainstream stuff that is legal.
My question is this. I'm going somewhere that is outside the US and it has been suggested that the % may be under 85%? Thoughts?
Well, a slot tech at a tribal joint said they're set mid to upper eighties so hey, if you're unregulated I guess anything goes.
Mid 80s seems to be the floor AFAIK but this is the basis of my question - Is ~85% really the floor or could it be even lower in other countries where no one has a clue/no competition.Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterV
Its always possible but if its a large manufacturer w a presence in the US its unlikely.
Manufacturers don’t want to ruin their own reputations or game brands with end consumers so usually the machines won’t be manufactured with the ability to go under the 80s RPT.
Could it be possible tho? Absolutely.
I think with some low limit play for a period of time tho u could probably get a sense for how loose or tight they would be.
I had a contract to design slot machines for placement in the Philippines. The company requested 55% return. I couldn't even begin to make a game like that, and refused. Eventually we settled at 65% return. That's around 2008, I have no idea what the current benchmark is.Quote:
Originally Posted by accountinquestion
This is taking clueless casino executives to a whole new level. I guess if you are limited by # of machines it could make sense. 55% !!Quote:
Originally Posted by EliotI had a contract to design slot machines for placement in the Philippines. The company requested 55% return. I couldn't even begin to make a game like that, and refused. Eventually we settled at 65% return. That's around 2008, I have no idea what the current benchmark is.Quote:
Originally Posted by accountinquestion
There are some illegal slots in a bar around here. I decided to play one. Deposited $20 x 2. The first time I got $20 in freeplay and 2nd time I got like $16 back after going bust. One game offered a severely rigged double up feature. Anyway, not counting freeplay I'm guessing the slot has a similar RTP.
Thank goodness the people of the Philippines have such a staunch advocate championing their side against the casinos. With an RTP so close to even, it's a wonder they can even keep the lights on - well fought sir.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliot
Well thank god for that extra 10% ;).Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliot
That's crazy. They shouldn't be allowed to operate unregulated.Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterV
Look at those strip Baccarat numbers.
Image if MDawg didn’t take them for close to a million in June! ����������
I think those table game numbers are the percent won per total buy-ins. Every $100 in buyins at the blackjack tables nets $9.24. The house may have up to a 2% advantage but players betting the money over and over again compounds to where the house is taking 9.24% of the money players bought in for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don PerignomThat's crazy. They shouldn't be allowed to operate unregulated.Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterV
In addition, just normal variance related to bankroll availability serves to dramatically increase the hold on blackjack and I suspect all table games.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
With blackjack, low limit, red chip players buy in for $100, players playing $25, for 2 or 3 hundred. And when that is gone, meaning they lose 10 hands or so, they quit, down their entire buy-in. Well the casino doesn't quit when they are down 10 units or so. :rolleyes: The casino has unlimited bankroll. I mean they could even add some rule that made the game even or slight player advantage and I don't think the "hold" would be affected that much.
Also related, players that do buy in for whatever small amount, (10 units), when they get to the end, they often play the least hand less optimally because if they are dealt a double down or split type hand, they don't want to re-buy in, so they just hit or stand.
Even players who think they are playing with an advantage via card counting have this same issue with bankroll, especially newer players starting out. I can't tell you how many newer players I have seen posting on a forum that start out underfunded, with a bankroll not adequate to cover the normal variance. Inevitably when they hit that run of bad variance they are tapped out. Again, the casino never gats tapped out.
This underfunded/underbankrolled phenomenon, is why I have tried to share my experiences, especially the swings, which can be severe with card counting blackjack. A player has to understand that these swings occur, even playing with a slight advantage and you have to be prepared both mentally and properly bankrolled to handle them, or the casino will win, despite any perceived small advantage the player thinks he has.
I swear I didn't hijack the thread on purpose.
Yes, I guess that's the best they can do with the data available.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
I posted the numbers to show that tight slots can happen in a regulated environment. For June, both downtown and the strip paid back a pathetic 87.63% on penny slots. I would argue that regulation may reduce paybacks because it imposes costs that have to be recouped.
I was a bit surprised to read that the biggest money makers are multi-denominational slots.
It is assumed that VP is considered a "slot" for these purposes.
Well Gunplay you should explain to them how you supplement your bankroll. Tell them how you strut around pool side in a tank top wearing a pair of Bulldog Concealed Carry Lace Thigh high Holsters, and showing off your Cuck Compressor Mini Steel Chastity Cage with Optional Spikes and Urethra Insert. Trolling for rich closest gay men to entice. That’s how you lasted so longQuote:
Originally Posted by kewlJIn addition, just normal variance related to bankroll availability serves to dramatically increase the hold on blackjack and I suspect all table games.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
With blackjack, low limit, red chip players buy in for $100, players playing $25, for 2 or 3 hundred. And when that is gone, meaning they lose 10 hands or so, they quit, down their entire buy-in. Well the casino doesn't quit when they are down 10 units or so. :rolleyes: The casino has unlimited bankroll. I mean they could even add some rule that made the game even or slight player advantage and I don't think the "hold" would be affected that much.
Also related, players that do buy in for whatever small amount, (10 units), when they get to the end, they often play the least hand less optimally because if they are dealt a double down or split type hand, they don't want to re-buy in, so they just hit or stand.
Even players who think they are playing with an advantage via card counting have this same issue with bankroll, especially newer players starting out. I can't tell you how many newer players I have seen posting on a forum that start out underfunded, with a bankroll not adequate to cover the normal variance. Inevitably when they hit that run of bad variance they are tapped out. Again, the casino never gats tapped out.
This underfunded/underbankrolled phenomenon, is why I have tried to share my experiences, especially the swings, which can be severe with card counting blackjack. A player has to understand that these swings occur, even playing with a slight advantage and you have to be prepared both mentally and properly bankrolled to handle them, or the casino will win, despite any perceived small advantage the player thinks he has.
Your first point isn't correct. You can just treat the BJ players as one shared bankroll and think of it that way. One busts and another takes his place. They collectively have more $ than the house but they're playing with a negative expectation.Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlJIn addition, just normal variance related to bankroll availability serves to dramatically increase the hold on blackjack and I suspect all table games.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
With blackjack, low limit, red chip players buy in for $100, players playing $25, for 2 or 3 hundred. And when that is gone, meaning they lose 10 hands or so, they quit, down their entire buy-in. Well the casino doesn't quit when they are down 10 units or so. :rolleyes: The casino has unlimited bankroll. I mean they could even add some rule that made the game even or slight player advantage and I don't think the "hold" would be affected that much.
Also related, players that do buy in for whatever small amount, (10 units), when they get to the end, they often play the least hand less optimally because if they are dealt a double down or split type hand, they don't want to re-buy in, so they just hit or stand.
Even players who think they are playing with an advantage via card counting have this same issue with bankroll, especially newer players starting out. I can't tell you how many newer players I have seen posting on a forum that start out underfunded, with a bankroll not adequate to cover the normal variance. Inevitably when they hit that run of bad variance they are tapped out. Again, the casino never gats tapped out.
This underfunded/underbankrolled phenomenon, is why I have tried to share my experiences, especially the swings, which can be severe with card counting blackjack. A player has to understand that these swings occur, even playing with a slight advantage and you have to be prepared both mentally and properly bankrolled to handle them, or the casino will win, despite any perceived small advantage the player thinks he has.
It is true that "+EV" players consistently overplaying their bankrolls big enough are actually -EV in the longterm but that's a different point.
Back in the early 90's when I first got involved in gambling it was video poker that owned the casino floors. About a third of casino win came from video poker. It was by far the biggest earner of all the games in the casinos. But then something funny happened. The public eschewed the video pokers with the payback in the upper 90's for penney slots with payback in the upper 80's to low 90's. The penny slots took over the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don PerignomI swear I didn't hijack the thread on purpose.
Yes, I guess that's the best they can do with the data available.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
I posted the numbers to show that tight slots can happen in a regulated environment. For June, both downtown and the strip paid back a pathetic 87.63% on penny slots. I would argue that regulation may reduce paybacks because it imposes costs that have to be recouped.
One of the reasons I quit doing Las Vegas was the low payback on vulturable slots. It's much better out here in the wilderness....and much more scenic.
After playing VP a while it isn't the most exciting. If you don't come from a poker background even less so. First computers couldn't really animate reels and such but now computers are so cheap and powerful we're getting a 3rd (?) generation of slots that are very graphic/sound dependent. I'm curious in 10 years what the ratio of bonus to non bonus will be... It is hard to make exciting games outside of freegames.
I've commented on this before but something you don't notice if you are a longtime VP player is that the sound and graphic design is extremely crude.
They look about 25+ years old in terms of tech. (I'm thinking of old CGA PC games from the 80s). It's very striking if you came relatively late to casino AP.
I assume the reason they haven't upgraded the aesthetics is that they want people to recognize their familiar game without thinking it has changed, because the hardware cost should be negligible to at least draw some nicer cards.
Or maybe they're still using 25 year old hardware that hasn't broken down yet? Idk.
I'd guess the demographic for VP is quite old. They're not looking for bells and whistles - just their old comfort zone. It kinda makes sense VP is not getting the resources to be improved. As time goes on I assume the VP sections will be smaller and smaller. As it is they often feel empty. Mirage for example has a VP section that is just super spaced out.. and all off to itself. I guess many places have VP mingled with other games..Quote:
Originally Posted by smurgerburger
TBH I enjoy the messing around on VP machines that are novel. Just about every twist imaginable has been added. Some are rather lame - random multiplier but some are actually pretty cool. The cooler they are the more I have to guess on basic strategy and thus the less likely I am to play it for very long. (Even when -EV the edge matters.)
Yes; plus there is much more competition in Vegas.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
Remember when skill gaming was supposed to be the next big thing and all the companies were scrabbling to get the next big hit?Quote:
Originally Posted by smurgerburger
There is one aspect of slots they haven't really tapped into yet, something that seems obvious to me, and I haven't figured out why.
Problem is you have to set the baseline payout to the skilled people. So wheres that leave all the unskilled people who just want to ploppy? Ploppies won't care about practicing it to get better at whatever skill. That whole approach sounds like bs marketing from dudes who were trying to sell machines that appealed to these new younger people. Just like video games !!Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolfRemember when skill gaming was supposed to be the next big thing and all the companies were scrabbling to get the next big hit?Quote:
Originally Posted by smurgerburger
There is one aspect of slots they haven't really tapped into yet, something that seems obvious to me, and I haven't figured out why.
I think it’s bcuz the average ploppie slot player just wants to zone out, push buttons, & stare at the screen.Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolfRemember when skill gaming was supposed to be the next big thing and all the companies were scrabbling to get the next big hit?Quote:
Originally Posted by smurgerburger
There is one aspect of slots they haven't really tapped into yet, something that seems obvious to me, and I haven't figured out why.
If they were interested in playing something that required skill they would play VP or live poker or blackjack.
I kinda get why the still games didn't take off. When I said, "There is one aspect of slots they haven't really tapped into yet, something that seems obvious to me, and I haven't figured out why." I was talking about something unrelated to skill gaming.Quote:
Originally Posted by DGenBenI think it’s bcuz the average ploppie slot player just wants to zone out, push buttons, & stare at the screen.Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolfRemember when skill gaming was supposed to be the next big thing and all the companies were scrabbling to get the next big hit?Quote:
Originally Posted by smurgerburger
There is one aspect of slots they haven't really tapped into yet, something that seems obvious to me, and I haven't figured out why.
If they were interested in playing something that required skill they would play VP or live poker or blackjack.
TBH I thought my point was kinda obvious. It makes more sense you had those same thoughts. I'm scratching my head what you're talking about and then it dawned on me,...Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolfI kinda get why the still games didn't take off. When I said, "There is one aspect of slots they haven't really tapped into yet, something that seems obvious to me, and I haven't figured out why." I was talking about something unrelated to skill gaming.Quote:
Originally Posted by DGenBenI think it’s bcuz the average ploppie slot player just wants to zone out, push buttons, & stare at the screen.Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolf
If they were interested in playing something that required skill they would play VP or live poker or blackjack.
We're talking about machines for urbans? No flat bills. Only crumpled up ones from the streets?
Got it, makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolfI kinda get why the still games didn't take off. When I said, "There is one aspect of slots they haven't really tapped into yet, something that seems obvious to me, and I haven't figured out why." I was talking about something unrelated to skill gaming.Quote:
Originally Posted by DGenBenI think it’s bcuz the average ploppie slot player just wants to zone out, push buttons, & stare at the screen.Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelWolf
If they were interested in playing something that required skill they would play VP or live poker or blackjack.
I have noticed though that anytime they make a game without the spinning reels, ie the zap it game, or the crushing game, they never seem to catch on & disappear from casinos fast.
I’ve noticed that with some games when they introduce a completely new mechanic to the game they will still have spinning reels (I mean video reels not mechanical reels) even if most of the payback is in some other feature.