Printable View
Darkoz is a little late to the party on this one. The game has only been out for 4 years. And I'm not that impressed with his ability to analyze slot games. A lot has gotten by him. I'll have more to say on this game later. I have some driving to do today:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gamb...ts/#post857772
Blindly taking a 14 blue is a road to ruin. Many thanks to you guys that posted the count numbers and their associated paybacks.
I found Progressive Free Games at the Hard Rock in Sioux City, Iowa in July 2018. But they pulled the game a few days after that. But I got to figure out how they worked.
There was always an exact number of spins to flip the Free Games Meters. The ones at Sioux City would flip at 48 spins on the Red 2X, 175 spins on the Green 5X, and 600 spins on the Blue 10X.
The red meter started at 5 free spins, green 7, blue 10.
You could trigger free games in the screen by catching 3 correlating bonus symbols. But if the meter reached 15 spins without hitting in the screen you automatically got the 15 free spins with the multiplier.
So I figured finding a meter on 14 was a good play. And I did well with the game. Every play wasn't a winner but the winning plays out ran the losing plays to show a profit.
So what happened? Hard Rock pulled the game. I was like damn the luck. But I figured the game would start showing in other locations.
So it goes on for a month. I was in at least a few dozen casinos after that and I couldn't find the game. So I put a pic up on gambling Twitter (I had about 500 people following me at the time) and asked if anyone had seen the game.
It was three months after I found the game at Sioux City that I learned on Twitter that it first appeared in Las Vegas. So I gave these guys the countdown on the meters. The first thing they hit me with was I didn't know how to count.
The game in Vegas was taking a lot more spins than the ones I found. I got DM's telling me I made a mistake. I told them no, I didn't make a mistake. That I thought they found different configurations. And that's what happened.
Shortly after they appeared in Vegas I found them in Oklahoma. And they had better countdowns. The first I found had 45/120/550. Then I found a set that was 40/100/480. Then I found some in some high roller rooms that were 38/80/450. I still needed a 14 on the 10X but I could play the 5X on 13.
The worst ones I found were at CZR properties, 110/330/850. You can tell that guy on WoV to forget the ones at Harrah's Cherokee and Belterra. The problem with that 850 is you have to catch someone playing a 14 then count the spins they are making....then hope they get up. I have better things to do.
Always impressed by how methodical you are Micky. If I was a pro-slot player, I would like to think I would do the same.
I tried some 15s at RW I believe. I kept hitting something that'd reset the first meter. After about 3 tries I gave up as it wasn't that important to me.
Got a question, when these guys talk about how “teams” will come in and take stuff at much lower numbers.
Are these guys simply willing to work for much less?
Is there focus more on “building cards” for freeplay, so they will play anything between even and slightly positive EV.
Are they “stealing” the plays from competition to “force them out”?
If someone was building cards on this machine at lower numbers I would say they don’t know what they are doing. This machine is very slow and would not be optimal to build on in the long run. I guess someone could utilize it sparingly but there are far better optionsQuote:
Originally Posted by PositiveVariance
.
Most likely the local hustlers are getting bored so they must play something. I see it everyday slot hustlers taking bad plays just because they spend so much time in the casino they get impatient.
If there are teams coming in to play this machine to build they won’t be making much in the long run, and I wouldn’t sweat them. They will be broke and gone soon enough
People with a large portfolio of moves don't sweat this too much, but it does occur to a certain extent IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by PositiveVariance
Nihilist often give up .. nothing mattersQuote:
Originally Posted by accountinquestion
There is always competition around the advantage slots. It's a thing of "how low will you play' versus the other slot AP's. I'm no competition at all on the 5K and 10K must hits because I refuse to play the low numbers the others play. Sure, there's multi-carding to be done on them but I just don't care for having to make commitments to other people and having to make freeplay pickups. It's not my bag but more power to the ones that do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by PositiveVariance
Darkoz' story is a little out of whack for me. Probably no team play going on. There used to be a low roller crew up in Manistee, Michigan about 20 years ago that camped the Blue Screen Bingo's everyday. They took turns on the plays and when one guy finished a play he would usually make a lap around the other games before queing back up in the Bingo line. They took up the seats on the games directly behind the Bingo's but never drew heat. It was like a social gathering. They sat there jaw jacking in between plays. I would even stop and socialize for awhile. But I wouldn't que up in the line. That's probably what Darkoz saw.
A well known AP sent me the countdowns off the par sheets for the 15's. You can see a pic of it here. The first thing I noticed was the countdowns on the 2X meters were all different according to the RTP. So when I stumbled upon some new 15's I would play them or countdown someone playing them to get the countdown on the 2X meter. That told me which chip I was dealing with and what I could play.
I pretty much stuck with the 91% and higher 15's.
Another thing the 15's were good for was a barometer on the RTP in the entire casino. IIRC, the only two places I found the 85%'ers was Belterra and Harrah's Cherokee. Both CZR joints. I don't even stop at CZR joints anymore.
I know guys that have worked them for freeplay but I don't care to get involved. One guy told me about an $8 hex on a CZR property where they played it three away and it took 13K to spin it off.
You can see in the pic below that the countdowns on the 2X is different on all the chips.
One thing I was able to determine was the game with the meters discounted out was the same on all the chips. The difference in RTP per each chip is based solely on the countdowns.
I tracked 10K spins on the 45/120/550's with all the meters discounted out. Got a 65% return. Usually, if the bonus reels are a different payback it will say something like "bonus reels in play." There is nothing like that on the 15's. So I figured:
A 2X spin = 1.3 units.
A 5X spin = 3.25 units
1 10X spin = 6.5 units
And this would be true on all the different chips.
Not to change the subject, and it has been talking about forever in the past, but Mick brought up Hex3. And Seed brought up card builders.
I wonder how many teams and individuals have lost their bankrolls on this game compared to how many gained from it?
Regarding hex 3 I can confidently say many. Most people didn’t have a great understanding of how much of a bankroll was needed. I remember having a brief conversation with Alan Kessler when they first came out. He made the comment about being very careful with the high denomination cats. I responded I was well aware of the ones set at 85 to 87 percent. There’s also a way to determine what version cat you are playing by looking at the difference in graphics sound and a few other things. Or you can simply have the machine restarted to see the build date. I know people still believe that the version didn’t matter but it did. Now they are disappearing or comping less. But if you knew what you were looking for and playing for for a period of about 14 months there was no better slot to make money onQuote:
Originally Posted by The Boz
As a follow up there are currently better games for card builders. Ones that fly under the radar and bring way less heat
Thanks, exactly as I expected to hear. There was a lot of debate on here about “nerfing” and versions but I figured many saw opportunity but didn’t think it out. And there was (is) short term money to be made before a lessor column comes off.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedvalueRegarding hex 3 I can confidently say many. Most people didn’t have a great understanding of how much of a bankroll was needed. I remember having a brief conversation with Alan Kessler when they first came out. He made the comment about being very careful with the high denomination cats. I responded I was well aware of the ones set at 85 to 87 percent. There’s also a way to determine what version cat you are playing by looking at the difference in graphics sound and a few other things. Or you can simply have the machine restarted to see the build date. I know people still believe that the version didn’t matter but it did. Now they are disappearing or comping less. But if you knew what you were looking for and playing for for a period of about 14 months there was no better slot to make money onQuote:
Originally Posted by The Boz
Now the thought that they are comping less interests me. Are you thinking they are targeting this game in particular by requiring more coin in per point and announcing it like higher pay VP, or are you saying they are targeting play deeper by looking at individual players/cards?
Feel free to not respond if you think it’s best not discussed.
Some casinos have been known to ban people for hex3 behavior that they believe to be abusive and at the surveillance level.Quote:
Originally Posted by The BozThanks, exactly as I expected to hear. There was a lot of debate on here about “nerfing” and versions but I figured many saw opportunity but didn’t think it out. And there was (is) short term money to be made before a lessor column comes off.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedvalueRegarding hex 3 I can confidently say many. Most people didn’t have a great understanding of how much of a bankroll was needed. I remember having a brief conversation with Alan Kessler when they first came out. He made the comment about being very careful with the high denomination cats. I responded I was well aware of the ones set at 85 to 87 percent. There’s also a way to determine what version cat you are playing by looking at the difference in graphics sound and a few other things. Or you can simply have the machine restarted to see the build date. I know people still believe that the version didn’t matter but it did. Now they are disappearing or comping less. But if you knew what you were looking for and playing for for a period of about 14 months there was no better slot to make money onQuote:
Originally Posted by The Boz
Now the thought that they are comping less interests me. Are you thinking they are targeting this game in particular by requiring more coin in per point and announcing it like higher pay VP, or are you saying they are targeting play deeper by looking at individual players/cards?
Feel free to not respond if you think it’s best not discussed.
I’ve never once seen this and my guys and I have ran millions of coin in through this game in Dam near every state. Now I’m not saying AIQ is lying and it could happen but I suspect it was for multiple carding not Just playing the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by accountinquestionSome casinos have been known to ban people for hex3 behavior that they believe to be abusive and at the surveillance level.Quote:
Originally Posted by The BozThanks, exactly as I expected to hear. There was a lot of debate on here about “nerfing” and versions but I figured many saw opportunity but didn’t think it out. And there was (is) short term money to be made before a lessor column comes off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seedvalue
Now the thought that they are comping less interests me. Are you thinking they are targeting this game in particular by requiring more coin in per point and announcing it like higher pay VP, or are you saying they are targeting play deeper by looking at individual players/cards?
Feel free to not respond if you think it’s best not discussed.
It depends on the club but yes to everything. Not all casinos but someQuote:
Originally Posted by The BozThanks, exactly as I expected to hear. There was a lot of debate on here about “nerfing” and versions but I figured many saw opportunity but didn’t think it out. And there was (is) short term money to be made before a lessor column comes off.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedvalueRegarding hex 3 I can confidently say many. Most people didn’t have a great understanding of how much of a bankroll was needed. I remember having a brief conversation with Alan Kessler when they first came out. He made the comment about being very careful with the high denomination cats. I responded I was well aware of the ones set at 85 to 87 percent. There’s also a way to determine what version cat you are playing by looking at the difference in graphics sound and a few other things. Or you can simply have the machine restarted to see the build date. I know people still believe that the version didn’t matter but it did. Now they are disappearing or comping less. But if you knew what you were looking for and playing for for a period of about 14 months there was no better slot to make money onQuote:
Originally Posted by The Boz
Now the thought that they are comping less interests me. Are you thinking they are targeting this game in particular by requiring more coin in per point and announcing it like higher pay VP, or are you saying they are targeting play deeper by looking at individual players/cards?
Feel free to not respond if you think it’s best not discussed.
At one time there were a few hundred Hexes in OK and guys traveled around spinning them off. Probably 40 Hexes just between Winstar/Border. The Choctaw casinos ran off the worst violater's. But it got to where the Hexes just sat there with no ploppie action and casinos started pulling them. Regal replaced a lot of Hexes in OK.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedvalueI’ve never once seen this and my guys and I have ran millions of coin in through this game in Dam near every state. Now I’m not saying AIQ is lying and it could happen but I suspect it was for multiple carding not Just playing the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by accountinquestionSome casinos have been known to ban people for hex3 behavior that they believe to be abusive and at the surveillance level.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Boz
How well you did on a 15 play depended on whether or not you caught a "shaker" in the free spins. On the big spins the screen would start shaking before the symbols landed. My biggest shaker was $5900 on a $6 play.
We came through one week. The locals seems to have them locked down 24/7. I would assume in a situation like that the casino must do something to free up the game for regular customers.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimmAt one time there were a few hundred Hexes in OK and guys traveled around spinning them off. Probably 40 Hexes just between Winstar/Border. The Choctaw casinos ran off the worst violater's. But it got to where the Hexes just sat there with no ploppie action and casinos started pulling them. Regal replaced a lot of Hexes in OK.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedvalueI’ve never once seen this and my guys and I have ran millions of coin in through this game in Dam near every state. Now I’m not saying AIQ is lying and it could happen but I suspect it was for multiple carding not Just playing the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by accountinquestion
Why would they be locked down? What does that even mean? Are you suggesting they're in a positive state 24/7 and no regulars can ever sit?Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedvalueWe came through one week. The locals seems to have them locked down 24/7. I would assume in a situation like that the casino must do something to free up the game for regular customers.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimmAt one time there were a few hundred Hexes in OK and guys traveled around spinning them off. Probably 40 Hexes just between Winstar/Border. The Choctaw casinos ran off the worst violater's. But it got to where the Hexes just sat there with no ploppie action and casinos started pulling them. Regal replaced a lot of Hexes in OK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seedvalue
Thats not the problem with Hex3s that I have seen... infact, the problem with Hexes outside of card stuff is the exact opposite. The games are in a way shitty state and people just lose their $$ too fast building the middle back up. Regulars lose interest so the Hex3s all sit around vacant.
I'm not saying Seedvalue is lying but I'm trying to make sense of his statement.
He means the locals have an eye on them at all times and will take what they consider to be a play as soon as it becomes available.Quote:
Originally Posted by accountinquestionWhy would they be locked down? What does that even mean? Are you suggesting they're in a positive state 24/7 and no regulars can ever sit?Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedvalueWe came through one week. The locals seems to have them locked down 24/7. I would assume in a situation like that the casino must do something to free up the game for regular customers.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
Thats not the problem with Hex3s that I have seen... infact, the problem with Hexes outside of card stuff is the exact opposite. The games are in a way shitty state and people just lose their $$ too fast building the middle back up. Regulars lose interest so the Hex3s all sit around vacant.
I'm not saying Seedvalue is lying but I'm trying to make sense of his statement.
But yeah these days they mostly lie fallow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by accountinquestionWhy would they be locked down? What does that even mean? Are you suggesting they're in a positive state 24/7 and no regulars can ever sit?Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedvalueWe came through one week. The locals seems to have them locked down 24/7. I would assume in a situation like that the casino must do something to free up the game for regular customers.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
Thats not the problem with Hex3s that I have seen... infact, the problem with Hexes outside of card stuff is the exact opposite. The games are in a way shitty state and people just lose their $$ too fast building the middle back up. Regulars lose interest so the Hex3s all sit around vacant.
I'm not saying Seedvalue is lying but I'm trying to make sense of his statement.
Imagine trying to troll me of all people on hex3 lol talk about dumb
Smurger got what I meant.
As a result you get the conditions you described above
Back to work now AIQ
Sure thats what we'd guess he means but why would a casino need to "free up" the Hex for customers. It is more or less like a lot of APable of machines. Hustlers put it back in -EV and mostly hit the games as soon as they approach positive. That doesn't prevent the locals from playing on the machine or anything like that. Nor do I think the casino would really see it in this light.Quote:
Originally Posted by smurgerburgerHe means the locals have an eye on them at all times and will take what they consider to be a play as soon as it becomes available.Quote:
Originally Posted by accountinquestionWhy would they be locked down? What does that even mean? Are you suggesting they're in a positive state 24/7 and no regulars can ever sit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seedvalue
Thats not the problem with Hex3s that I have seen... infact, the problem with Hexes outside of card stuff is the exact opposite. The games are in a way shitty state and people just lose their $$ too fast building the middle back up. Regulars lose interest so the Hex3s all sit around vacant.
I'm not saying Seedvalue is lying but I'm trying to make sense of his statement.
But yeah these days they mostly lie fallow.
I don't care but just wanted to bust his balls.
I don't understand how a guy like Sleaze can claim to be a near genius with a very high IQ yet wind up spending his working time trying to AP casino slots.
Not that I've anything against AP's: I don't: but wouldn't you think that a guy with an IQ at or approaching genius level would have figured out a different path for his life?
He says he went to college yet he has contempt for those with a mainstream successful life such as myself.
Put on that coat and tie, get an office, choose a profession, use that sharp brain to figure out all the angles, meet, greet and impress people professionally and then you can make really big money: that's the American Way; not heading a team of drones to pilfer offerings from the collection basket at the new-fangled places of worship in American, i.e. casino slots.
That's what the well educated, mentally sound, stable and hard working people do, anyway.
Are you on the lecture circuit with Rob Singer?Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterV
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterV
You really have no idea how stupid you sound. You literally make a fool of yourself every time you post because you lack one critical piece of information. The fact you have no idea who you are talking to lol. Go get high troll
I base my analysis on what you have posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seedvalue
Are you saying your words on the screen aren't a true reflection of what and who you really are?
Bullshit.
You really are the poster child for birth control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterVI base my analysis on what you have posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seedvalue
Are you saying your words on the screen aren't a true reflection of what and who you really are?
Bullshit.
You really are the poster child for birth control.
Let me guess you have no kids shocker
At this point the most logical conclusion is you and AIQ are professional prop posters. Like how online poker rooms would pay prop players to start tables you guys most likely get paid to post and start drama. No way you are a real personQuote:
Originally Posted by SeedvalueQuote:
Originally Posted by MisterVI base my analysis on what you have posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seedvalue
Are you saying your words on the screen aren't a true reflection of what and who you really are?
Bullshit.
You really are the poster child for birth control.
Let me guess you have no kids shocker
Damn, you got me / us there: I guess you really ARE as smart as you claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seedvalue
Who knew?
So yeah, Dan pays AIQ and I a couple grand each month to "stir the pot and take out the trash," and to infuse as much drama into the board as possible.
Never thought we'd be exposed by a fifth grader: oh well, bye bye gravy train...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterVDamn, you got me / us there: I guess you really ARE as smart as you claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seedvalue
Who knew?
So yeah, Dan pays AIQ and I a couple grand each month to "stir the pot and take out the trash," and to infuse as much drama into the board as possible.
Never thought we'd be exposed by a fifth grader: oh well, bye bye gravy train...
There’s no payday for you to be had champion. I hear you are Terminally I’ll ? I’m sorry
Why don’t you bring it off board ? Honestly? What keeps you from really letting me know how you feel face to face ?Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedvalueQuote:
Originally Posted by MisterVDamn, you got me / us there: I guess you really ARE as smart as you claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seedvalue
Who knew?
So yeah, Dan pays AIQ and I a couple grand each month to "stir the pot and take out the trash," and to infuse as much drama into the board as possible.
Never thought we'd be exposed by a fifth grader: oh well, bye bye gravy train...
There’s no payday for you to be had champion. I hear you are Terminally I’ll ? I’m sorry
You heard wrong, my health is currently good, but who knows what the future holds?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seedvalue
You really are a stupid putz to think I would ever deign to meet you for any reason, let alone to "fight."Quote:
Originally Posted by Seedvalue
C'mon man, surely you must be smarter than a fifth grader?
What is the plus side for me meeting you in the real world when I can have a lot of fun exposing you on these boards?
It's not cowardice that guides me, it is prudence.
I've nothing to prove to you or to anybody.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterVYou really are a stupid putz to think I would ever deign to meet you for any reason, let alone to "fight."Quote:
Originally Posted by Seedvalue
C'mon man, surely you must be smarter than a fifth grader?
What is the plus side for me meeting you in the real world when I can have a lot of fun exposing you on these boards?
It's not cowardice that guides me, it is prudence.
I've nothing to prove to you or to anybody.
Expose me then tell everyone my name I know yours you go first.
I mean a big bad tuff lawyer like yourself definitely should show a punk like me what’s up in real life. It should be your duty
I give you permission to Dox me here you. Post my name and net worth then I will post yours agree ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedvalueQuote:
Originally Posted by MisterVYou really are a stupid putz to think I would ever deign to meet you for any reason, let alone to "fight."Quote:
Originally Posted by Seedvalue
C'mon man, surely you must be smarter than a fifth grader?
What is the plus side for me meeting you in the real world when I can have a lot of fun exposing you on these boards?
It's not cowardice that guides me, it is prudence.
I've nothing to prove to you or to anybody.
Expose me then tell everyone my name I know yours you go first.
I mean a big bad tuff lawyer like yourself definitely should show a punk like me what’s up in real life. It should be your duty
I give you permission to Dox me here you. Post my name and net worth then I will post yours agree ?
Let’s play for real mr V…..
I give you permission.
Remember you once stared down a guy at a WOV meet up lol
Or put that big Brain up against mine but I want EVERY dollar you have bet it all on how smart you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedvalueQuote:
Originally Posted by SeedvalueQuote:
Originally Posted by MisterV
Expose me then tell everyone my name I know yours you go first.
I mean a big bad tuff lawyer like yourself definitely should show a punk like me what’s up in real life. It should be your duty
I give you permission to Dox me here you. Post my name and net worth then I will post yours agree ?
Let’s play for real mr V…..
I give you permission.
Remember you once stared down a guy at a WOV meet up lol
By exposing you I mean I point out your lies and bullshit.
I don't give a fuck about you in real life, your identity means zilch to me.
You come onto these boards saying "look at me, look at me" and talk smack to and about everybody.
I merely call bullshit.
I'm tiring of this back and forth with you, sleaze: unless you come up with some new material I've little more to say to and about you as I've pretty much covered all the bases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterV
Within hours I had your real name and basically everything I wanted to know about you at my fingertips because I guess you have did this shit to so many people that they hate your guts.
Thats actually scary not me defending myself against unprovoked attacks. You started it champ not me. That’s the facts
I didn’t know you were terminal buddy so I give you a pass
Go get some sleep
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterV
Within hours I had your real name and basically everything I wanted to know about you at my fingertips because I guess you have did this shit to so many people that they hate your guts.
That’s actually scary!!! not me defending myself against unprovoked attacks. You started it champ not me. That’s the facts
I didn’t know you were terminal buddy so I give you a pass
Go get some sleep
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterV
For the record I talked shit on Kew AIQ and you. All three of you came at me first. Don’t start shit with people that are willing to Ruin your life to get even. Just be nice instead. I can clearly prove everything I’m sayin, it’s not my fault you don’t want confirmation
Yes it does prevent the locals from playing the machines. The reason is because when a machine is stripped clean, it is lower than its overall/average RTP (the overall RTP is the average of all states of the machine - vulturable,neutral, and unvulturable). For example an overall 87% machine in its stripped down state might have an RTP of 70%. Then the locals get creamed (even worse than at 87%) and it doesn't get played as often by them. Next thing you know, idle hexbreakers, idle Regal Ritches, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by accountinquestion
They are called ploppies for a reason. They “PLOP” down at their favorite machine.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplayYes it does prevent the locals from playing the machines. The reason is because when a machine is stripped clean, it is lower than its overall/average RTP (the overall RTP is the average of all states of the machine - vulturable,neutral, and unvulturable). For example an overall 87% machine in its stripped down state might have an RTP of 70%. Then the locals get creamed (even worse than at 87%) and it doesn't get played as often by them. Next thing you know, idle hexbreakers, idle Regal Ritches, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by accountinquestion
Very few ploppies understand -EV, neutral, +EV states of the machines. They just know overall the casino will take their money. They hope to get “lucky” from time to time. They go to the machine either because they are passing by and the machine is free or it is a machine they enjoying playing and will seek it out.
Let’s say it is in a heavily -EV state of 70% RTP and the ploppy gets creamed. The machine takes their $200 and with typically ploppy thinking, they say “well it’s just not My Day”. The following Week they come back and play that same machine and win $200. This time it is “Their day” as they would put it.
If Ploppies understood the various states of “variable state machines”, they likely wouldn’t be in there gambling all this -EV stuff since they would realize just how bad it is for them.
On the argument for AP’s taking the machines when they are in an +EV state (assuming the AP isn’t causing problems in the casino) would be that it is OVERALL lowing the RTP for the poppies. It could lower their actual return from 87% to 83%. Some would argue “well the casino pays out the same amount either way”, yes this is true but the casino wants to pay the regular ploppy customers not AP’s.
Blackjack counters will know this is similar to when a casino shuffles up when a card counter increases his bet in a high count. That “high count” is apart of the overall house edge in the game. By shuffling in advantageous situations, the house edge is therefore increased.
My guess is a machine paying at 70% will be noticed by quite a few. You literally lose your money 2x as fast at 85%. This should be fairly noticeable by a lot of ploppies. There is a mixture of both things happening. The only real point I was making is that I'm not sure many casino people realize how this works together.
My guess is the people kicked out over H3s were found by card abuse and then they started looking into H3s. They don't know whats happening but they watch a few machines and start picking off those displaying the behaviors of APs.
Who are the people, that during the lifetime of the machine on the floor, stop populating the machine, causing the hustler to observe an empty machine with no plays on it for several hours on end each "day", when previously, they did not observe an idle machine for several hours on end each "day" (and also observed there being plays on it at this time period of non-idleness that no longer exists) ? It is this group of people that I am referring to, rather than the people that come back each week and get absolutely bludgeoned that you refer to in your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by PositiveVariance
I guess I am confused.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplayWho are the people, that during the lifetime of the machine on the floor, stop populating the machine, causing the hustler to observe an empty machine with no plays on it for several hours on end each "day", when previously, they did not observe an idle machine for several hours on end each "day" (and also observed there being plays on it at this time period of non-idleness that no longer exists) ? It is this group of people that I am referring to, rather than the people that come back each week and get absolutely bludgeoned that you refer to in your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by PositiveVariance
Are you referring to “different levels of Ploppies”?
Are you saying that a certain type of Ploppy will no longer play the machine if he feels he is getting 70% vs 85% RTP? (I’m not staying I disagree with this, just trying to understand your point)
There is a group of human beings that represent a large enough population such that a given vulturable machine gets a lot of action for several hours of the day from this group of people with little idle time on that machine as a result. And then, not only that, but this same group of people generates plays that are taken down by hustlers on this machine. Finally, this same group of individuals stops playing the machine or plays it much less, such that hustlers observe the machine to have a lot of idle time. The group of people that you refer to, which I will call lemmings for lack of a better term, do not exist in such quantities as to create a hustler observation of the machine not being idle. The group of people I am referring to are often called regulars or "regs". Obviously you may call the groups we are referring to whatever you wish to. For example Lemmings for the group you refer to and Regulars or "Regs" for the group I am referring to. Generally Lemmings include Darwin Award winners and shiny object superfans.Quote:
Originally Posted by PositiveVarianceI guess I am confused.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplayWho are the people, that during the lifetime of the machine on the floor, stop populating the machine, causing the hustler to observe an empty machine with no plays on it for several hours on end each "day", when previously, they did not observe an idle machine for several hours on end each "day" (and also observed there being plays on it at this time period of non-idleness that no longer exists) ? It is this group of people that I am referring to, rather than the people that come back each week and get absolutely bludgeoned that you refer to in your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by PositiveVariance
Are you referring to “different levels of Ploppies”?
Are you saying that a certain type of Ploppy will no longer play the machine if he feels he is getting 70% vs 85% RTP? (I’m not staying I disagree with this, just trying to understand your point)
Not much to know about this game. I just play when I catch the 2X on 13. You'll never get a play on the 5X or 10X. It take gillions of spins to flip those meters. You'll hit them in the screen before they get to the top.The number on the upper right is the total of the 2X, 5X and 10X meters. In this case, 23.Quote:
Originally Posted by jafdevera004
Playing the 2X on 13 I'm gonna take about a 35% drop on 35 to 68 spins. Average is about 50 spins. The 2X flips every 34 spins on the ones I play. I will recoup most or all of it back when 2X hits 15.
Meanwhile I have a chance to catch the 5X or 10X meters or catch the 23. In the example that 23 will give you 12 spins at 2X, 6 spins at 5X, and 5 spins at 10X.
By playing the 2X at 13 I'm basically freerolling to hit the 5X, 10X, and 23.
Playing a 2X on 12 is marginal.
What do you all think about these 15's with the wheel? The counts to increase the numbers are much higher.
https://youtu.be/LCCfvpTyLfM
Personally I haven’t played them but I’ve heard from others that they are shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbjb
Within the 85% RTP context: the 2x free games actually have a smaller increment cycle versus the non-progressive meter variant: about 70 games (rather than 110). 5x, around 500 games (rather than 330), and 10x, around 1000 (rather than 850). The 2x2x2x progressive moves a penny per 60c coin-in. So you can use the 2x2x2x progressive as your spin counter (a penny 2x2x2x meter increment per spin at 60c cost per spin). Note the 2x2x2x progressive value while a civilian is playing or on an empty game that has a 5x and/or 10x 14. Come back later and if the 5x/10x 14 is still present, take note of the 2x2x2x progressive value again to get the number of spins, so that you know at least that many spins have been taken off (plus the unknown number of spins before you came around the 1st time) in order to move from 14 to 15 (obviously there will be the somewhat rare situation where the 2x2x2x comes off and you lose the count, so you could use the 3x3x3x as a backup - just note the cost to move that one a penny). Caveat, the number of spins to increment the 2x,5x, and 10x banks is approximate. I would suggest (for those that think they should be written off) not writing these off as unvulturable despite hearsay . . .Quote:
Originally Posted by jbjb
Excellent point!Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplayI would suggest (for those that think they should be written off) not writing these off as unvulturable despite hearsay . . .Quote:
Originally Posted by jbjb
Thinking about it now, I have written other stuff off too early based on what I heard.
Thanks Ben. In any event, you didn't say you were going to write it off - just that you heard that others have. Since the number of spins to increment a free games bank by one is deterministic, the game is vulturable as you know. What is required is the total number of spins required to increment each of the 2x,5x, and 10x free games banks by one on the progressive jackpot meter variant, along with an accurate count of how many spins a 5x or 10x bank with 14 games on it (and a 2x with 13 games on it since the interval is so short - 70 spins or so) has accumulated on its journey to 15 free games.Quote:
Originally Posted by DGenBenExcellent point!Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplayI would suggest (for those that think they should be written off) not writing these off as unvulturable despite hearsay . . .Quote:
Originally Posted by jbjb
Thinking about it now, I have written other stuff off too early based on what I heard.
Haven't played this one yet. Seen it in just one casino so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by DGenBenPersonally I haven’t played them but I’ve heard from others that they are shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbjb
Bump. About the BONANZA version. Evidently there are different configurations with different paybacks to this game just like the regular 15's. I just encountered a machine where it takes 51 spins to flip the 2X meter. The one I have in the pic here takes only 34 spins to flip the 2X meter.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimmNot much to know about this game. I just play when I catch the 2X on 13. You'll never get a play on the 5X or 10X. It take gillions of spins to flip those meters. You'll hit them in the screen before they get to the top.The number on the upper right is the total of the 2X, 5X and 10X meters. In this case, 23.Quote:
Originally Posted by jafdevera004
Playing the 2X on 13 I'm gonna take about a 35% drop on 35 to 68 spins. Average is about 50 spins. The 2X flips every 34 spins on the ones I play. I will recoup most or all of it back when 2X hits 15.
Meanwhile I have a chance to catch the 5X or 10X meters or catch the 23. In the example that 23 will give you 12 spins at 2X, 6 spins at 5X, and 5 spins at 10X.
By playing the 2X at 13 I'm basically freerolling to hit the 5X, 10X, and 23.
Playing a 2X on 12 is marginal.
The 34 spinner would be a better payback than the 51 spinner. So these new games might be playable in some casinos but not others.
The one we play, the progressives for the 3x, 3x, 3x and 2x, 2x, 2x are already maxed out. We know the count number for each of the 2x, 5x, and 10x meters. You definitely don't just want to jump on a blind 14 and not know where the count is. Taking a 10x, 14 that just flipped from 13 will be a disaster. At least on the one we have.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplayWithin the 85% RTP context: the 2x free games actually have a smaller increment cycle versus the non-progressive meter variant: about 70 games (rather than 110). 5x, around 500 games (rather than 330), and 10x, around 1000 (rather than 850). The 2x2x2x progressive moves a penny per 60c coin-in. So you can use the 2x2x2x progressive as your spin counter (a penny 2x2x2x meter increment per spin at 60c cost per spin). Note the 2x2x2x progressive value while a civilian is playing or on an empty game that has a 5x and/or 10x 14. Come back later and if the 5x/10x 14 is still present, take note of the 2x2x2x progressive value again to get the number of spins, so that you know at least that many spins have been taken off (plus the unknown number of spins before you came around the 1st time) in order to move from 14 to 15 (obviously there will be the somewhat rare situation where the 2x2x2x comes off and you lose the count, so you could use the 3x3x3x as a backup - just note the cost to move that one a penny). Caveat, the number of spins to increment the 2x,5x, and 10x banks is approximate. I would suggest (for those that think they should be written off) not writing these off as unvulturable despite hearsay . . .Quote:
Originally Posted by jbjb
That's right. That's why I use the progressives to get a count of how deep in the 14 the 2x,5x, or 10x is as the case may be. For unchanging progressives, the non-14 2x,5x, or 10x free games movement can be used to get a fix on how deep the 14 games bank is.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbjb
I had a somewhat rare situation on the meter progressive version (2x2x2x minor, 3x3x3x major) of this game. I had a spin where the 10x moved to 15 and the 2x moved from 12 to 13. Does anyone know what would have happened if both the 10x and 2x were at 14 and both incremented to 15 on the same spin ? Would you get two consecutive 15 free games rounds (one for the 2x and one for the 10x in either order) or would you get a nested 20x (2x times 10x) mega round of 15 free games ? It could also be that this scenario of a double (or triple) 14 moving to 15 is not allowed in the 1st place but it doesn't state this in the rules if indeed it is not allowed.
Thanks.
I think what would happen is you would get each bonus separately & consecutively.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplay
Had something similar occur on the original version of this game. Was chasing a 14 Blue 10x and the same spin that metered it to 15 for the MHB was also a spin that landed 3 Bonus symbols for the 2X games. I was a little confused, but what happened is the game first did the 2x bonus for however many spins I had on the meter (don’t recall) and then immediately after it did the 15 spins at 10x.
I would think if the huge mega round was what happens then it would be listed in the rules as a feature.Quote:
Originally Posted by DGenBenI think what would happen is you would get each bonus separately & consecutively.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplay
Had something similar occur on the original version of this game. Was chasing a 14 Blue 10x and the same spin that metered it to 15 for the MHB was also a spin that landed 3 Bonus symbols for the 2X games. I was a little confused, but what happened is the game first did the 2x bonus for however many spins I had on the meter (don’t recall) and then immediately after it did the 15 spins at 10x.
Thank you Ben. I am going to assume that in the 2x2x2x/3x3x3x progressive meters version of the fifteens that you would simply get consecutive bonus rounds (in the order by which they incremented to 15) as is the case for the original version of the fifteens.Quote:
Originally Posted by DGenBenI think what would happen is you would get each bonus separately & consecutively.Quote:
Originally Posted by tableplay
Had something similar occur on the original version of this game. Was chasing a 14 Blue 10x and the same spin that metered it to 15 for the MHB was also a spin that landed 3 Bonus symbols for the 2X games. I was a little confused, but what happened is the game first did the 2x bonus for however many spins I had on the meter (don’t recall) and then immediately after it did the 15 spins at 10x.
Best, TP.