Slot AP Data Collection

I've been enjoying going through some of the slot AP posts where they break down the math of figuring out plays for some machines. My question is how are you guys collecting this data? I would like to start data basing my plays, but I have no clue how you guys are going about getting information on individual spins.

I do my own counting and use a pocket notebook. First, I have to think up what the important stats are. I dont want to spend any time on useless stats.

For starters, on these slots that are variable state you want to know what the RTP is in the main game. The bonus round, whether its free spins or whatever is it's own set of stats.

Wow, that's some serious dedication to your craft. I initially posted the question because I was reading through the buffalo diamond thread and assumed the amount of detail you had in your database was too much to be hand collected without severely cutting into your hourly rate so there must be some other method you guys are using. I'll start with designing a couple database tables for games I want to collect data on and see if I can come up with a way to streamline the collection. I appreciate the response!

I don't collect stats as heavy as I used to. I'm lazy in my old age. It just ain't that important to me anymore to zero in to the 7th decimal. I just ballpark them these days. A coupla games I've been working on lately is Wolf Run Eclipse and Life of Luxury.

Mickey, have there been any games over the years that you were fairly certain you were the only one APing it?
Not so much a particular machine with a defect or malfunction on a local level that last until the casino fixes the issue, but more so a machine that was distributed on a national level - that you were fairly certain you were the only one who knew?
Or even a machine you believe you were the first to beat it and it took a good amount of time for others to come in?

Shoot, even if you have a story of a local malfunction you can share, I’m willing to listen.

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Originally Posted by PositiveVariance

Mickey, have there been any games over the years that you were fairly certain you were the only one APing it?
Not so much a particular machine with a defect or malfunction on a local level that last until the casino fixes the issue, but more so a machine that was distributed on a national level - that you were fairly certain you were the only one who knew?
Or even a machine you believe you were the first to beat it and it took a good amount of time for others to come in?

Shoot, even if you have a story of a local malfunction you can share, I’m willing to listen.

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I don't think there were or are any video games distributed nationally that I was the only one to exploit. At least nothing I can remember.

There is one area, Montana specific, that I was the only one to exploit. That is, until I taught it to one other person. It's a very long list of games, mostly video keno, so I won't put them all up at once.

I think I can safely say I'm the most knowledgeable and experience video keno AP ever in the United States. That because of a few factors. The games weren't distributed nationally, just Montana. I happened to pass thru Montana and found a few games. Then more games came out. I didn't leave Montana for a ten year stretch, 2007 to 2017.

Years before I arrived in Montana I had found Scarne's Complete Guide to Gambling in a library somewhere. It was just a few pages with a clinic on keno math. I ran it to the copying machine then stuffed it away for later reference. There weren't any keno plays in Nevada in those days but I thought hell maybe someday. So when I got to Montana and seen some games I immediately pulled out that Scarne Keno Clinic and taught myself keno math.

But I'll start with a video poker game.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

There is one area, Montana specific, that I was the only one to exploit. That is, until I taught it to one other person. It's a very long list of games, mostly video keno, so I won't put them all up at once.
.

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Were these the machines in the bars that you discussed on (I believe it was your 1st) Gambling With An Edge episode?

The Jackpot Aces video poker game carries just a 50 cent bet. The numbers in the upper left have meters that run at 1%. This is a One Joker game but the high paying hands are based on the Aces. You can't see it in the pic but the regular full house pays 9 for 1.

When I first seen this payscale like 15 years ago I thought something was up. The reason why was because I had seen Jackpot Aces many many times before. Had even somewhat analyzed it and determined it was no good. But there is something different in this pic of the game than all the other times I had seen the game.

The difference was the pay for the Natural Aces Full of Anything. Every time I seen that game before that meter was at $10. So now I'm looking at one where everything is the same except that Aces Full meter is resetting at $100.

So I thought if the game was at about 97% when the meter starts at $10 then it has to be positive with the meter at $100.

At the time I had Frugal Video Poker and Wolf Video Poker but this game couldn't be fully analyzed with any software because there was nothing on the market where you could isolate a Natural Full House that payed higher than the normal full houses.

But Wolf was a big help. It cranked out a strategy chart that even included holding One Ace. All I had to do was cull out the hands that could turn into a Natural Aces Full, put the proper EV on them then move them up in the strategy chart.

Wolf also gives you the frequencies of each playable hand dealt. So I just had to multiply that number by the chances of it turning into a Natural Aces Full.

There are multiple routes to an Aces Full, Dealt Aces Full,3 Aces into Aces Full, 2 Aces into Aces Full, etc.

Then I average out all the routes and it came up to making an Aces Full hand every 876 deals.

The hand pays 200 for 1 plus has a 1% meter.

200/876 meant the Aces Full was worth 22.8% of the payack. That meant the game was almost 114%.

But just a 50 cent bet. Still, the game was worth $70 an hour at 1000 HPH.

The Jackpot Aces game was on a few thousand machines in Montana. If they made the mistake on one machine they may have made it on others I thought. So I looked at that game everywhere I went. I found 23 machines total.

I worked this game for several years. Then I taught it to one other person when I lost interest in it.

You won't find any information on this game thru Shack or Dancer. They never heard of the game.

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Originally Posted by PositiveVariance

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

There is one area, Montana specific, that I was the only one to exploit. That is, until I taught it to one other person. It's a very long list of games, mostly video keno, so I won't put them all up at once.
.

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Were these the machines in the bars that you discussed on (I believe it was your 1st) Gambling With An Edge episode?

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Yep, It was in the Montana bars.

Thanks for sharing Mickey.
I love these kind of stories
I wish others would share stories on dead plays. Obviously I understand why they wouldn’t want to.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

The Jackpot Aces video poker game carries just a 50 cent bet. The numbers in the upper left have meters that run at 1%. This is a One Joker game but the high paying hands are based on the Aces. You can't see it in the pic but the regular full house pays 9 for 1.

When I first seen this payscale like 15 years ago I thought something was up. The reason why was because I had seen Jackpot Aces many many times before. Had even somewhat analyzed it and determined it was no good. But there is something different in this pic of the game than all the other times I had seen the game.

The difference was the pay for the Natural Aces Full of Anything. Every time I seen that game before that meter was at $10. So now I'm looking at one where everything is the same except that Aces Full meter is resetting at $100.

So I thought if the game was at about 97% when the meter starts at $10 then it has to be positive with the meter at $100.

At the time I had Frugal Video Poker and Wolf Video Poker but this game couldn't be fully analyzed with any software because there was nothing on the market where you could isolate a Natural Full House that payed higher than the normal full houses.

But Wolf was a big help. It cranked out a strategy chart that even included holding One Ace. All I had to do was cull out the hands that could turn into a Natural Aces Full, put the proper EV on them then move them up in the strategy chart.

Wolf also gives you the frequencies of each playable hand dealt. So I just had to multiply that number by the chances of it turning into a Natural Aces Full.

There are multiple routes to an Aces Full, Dealt Aces Full,3 Aces into Aces Full, 2 Aces into Aces Full, etc.

Then I average out all the routes and it came up to making an Aces Full hand every 876 deals.

The hand pays 200 for 1 plus has a 1% meter.

200/876 meant the Aces Full was worth 22.8% of the payack. That meant the game was almost 114%.

But just a 50 cent bet. Still, the game was worth $70 an hour at 1000 HPH.

The Jackpot Aces game was on a few thousand machines in Montana. If they made the mistake on one machine they may have made it on others I thought. So I looked at that game everywhere I went. I found 23 machines total.

I worked this game for several years. Then I taught it to one other person when I lost interest in it.

You won't find any information on this game thru Shack or Dancer. They never heard of the game.

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Have you spent much time playing UX keno ? I’ve found some interesting pay-tables in my travels. Keno was something I actually never bothered to look at until I read one of your post some years back. Now I utilize keno for a variety of things.

I ballpark, then refine my numbers or strategy based on results. I usually go conservative. Let any competition waste time on borderline plays.

Record Grandma's spin data, it's just as valid as your spins.

Easy method is snap phone pics of a session. Determine # of spins based on meter movement or session points earned.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Wolf Run Eclipse

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I stumbled onto this game recently. Haven't seen it enough to gather any stats on it but this looked good to my untrained eye:

https://i.imgur.com/dcPiRQz.png

Played it at $2/spin. Took $756 in coin in (378 spins) to hit the mini at 33. Lost $12.74 (6.37u).

Thought about continuing due to the Major being relatively high (up to 31 at that point) compared to the rest of the machines/denoms (almost all had Majors between 5 and 10) but decided to walk away with my small loss.

Will try to keep my eye on this game going forward.

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Originally Posted by Badger

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Wolf Run Eclipse

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I stumbled onto this game recently. Haven't seen it enough to gather any stats on it but this looked good to my untrained eye:

https://i.imgur.com/dcPiRQz.png

Played it at $2/spin. Took $756 in coin in (378 spins) to hit the mini at 33. Lost $12.74 (6.37u).

Thought about continuing due to the Major being relatively high (up to 31 at that point) compared to the rest of the machines/denoms (almost all had Majors between 5 and 10) but decided to walk away with my small loss.

Will try to keep my eye on this game going forward.

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My stats say Mini 30 is breakeven if minor/major at reset, minor 23 at breakeven if mini/major at reset, and major at breakeven at 40 if mini/minor at reset.

I also do combination plays when mini and minor total to 40.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Badger

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Wolf Run Eclipse

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I stumbled onto this game recently. Haven't seen it enough to gather any stats on it but this looked good to my untrained eye:

https://i.imgur.com/dcPiRQz.png

Played it at $2/spin. Took $756 in coin in (378 spins) to hit the mini at 33. Lost $12.74 (6.37u).

Thought about continuing due to the Major being relatively high (up to 31 at that point) compared to the rest of the machines/denoms (almost all had Majors between 5 and 10) but decided to walk away with my small loss.

Will try to keep my eye on this game going forward.

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My stats say Mini 30 is breakeven if minor/major at reset, minor 23 at breakeven if mini/major at reset, and major at breakeven at 40 if mini/minor at reset.

I also do combination plays when mini and minor total to 40.

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Thanks Mickey. Will have to keep a look out for this game.

Is there any point where you will chase a naked Mega? Or are the chances of hitting it so slim that you don't even consider it at all regardless of how high it is?

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Originally Posted by Badger

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Badger

I stumbled onto this game recently. Haven't seen it enough to gather any stats on it but this looked good to my untrained eye:

https://i.imgur.com/dcPiRQz.png

Played it at $2/spin. Took $756 in coin in (378 spins) to hit the mini at 33. Lost $12.74 (6.37u).

Thought about continuing due to the Major being relatively high (up to 31 at that point) compared to the rest of the machines/denoms (almost all had Majors between 5 and 10) but decided to walk away with my small loss.

Will try to keep my eye on this game going forward.

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My stats say Mini 30 is breakeven if minor/major at reset, minor 23 at breakeven if mini/major at reset, and major at breakeven at 40 if mini/minor at reset.

I also do combination plays when mini and minor total to 40.

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Thanks Mickey. Will have to keep a look out for this game.

Is there any point where you will chase a naked Mega? Or are the chances of hitting it so slim that you don't even consider it at all regardless of how high it is?

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The meter rarely moves on the Mega. I've done around 10K spins and have seen the mega symbol land on the 4th reel just a couple of times. So I don't really pay attention to it.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Badger

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

My stats say Mini 30 is breakeven if minor/major at reset, minor 23 at breakeven if mini/major at reset, and major at breakeven at 40 if mini/minor at reset.

I also do combination plays when mini and minor total to 40.

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Thanks Mickey. Will have to keep a look out for this game.

Is there any point where you will chase a naked Mega? Or are the chances of hitting it so slim that you don't even consider it at all regardless of how high it is?

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The meter rarely moves on the Mega. I've done around 10K spins and have seen the mega symbol land on the 4th reel just a couple of times. So I don't really pay attention to it.

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I can believe that. I heard through the grapevine that a woman lost 3k chasing the Mega at the 0.80 bet level. Still only moved it from around 130 to around 140.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

My stats say Mini 30 is breakeven if minor/major at reset, minor 23 at breakeven if mini/major at reset, and major at breakeven at 40 if mini/minor at reset.

I also do combination plays when mini and minor total to 40.

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This one I took came off at 67. I've never seen one come off higher, but I'm guessing others with more exposure to the game have seen it come off higher than this.

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

My stats say Mini 30 is breakeven if minor/major at reset, minor 23 at breakeven if mini/major at reset, and major at breakeven at 40 if mini/minor at reset.

I also do combination plays when mini and minor total to 40.

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This one I took came off at 67. I've never seen one come off higher, but I'm guessing others with more exposure to the game have seen it come off higher than this.

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What did you start at?

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

My stats say Mini 30 is breakeven if minor/major at reset, minor 23 at breakeven if mini/major at reset, and major at breakeven at 40 if mini/minor at reset.

I also do combination plays when mini and minor total to 40.

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This one I took came off at 67. I've never seen one come off higher, but I'm guessing others with more exposure to the game have seen it come off higher than this.

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I’ve seen many run into the 70s mostly in casinos known to have low RTP setups. Highest was 78 that was started at 42 with a 35 minor

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Originally Posted by Seedvalue

I’ve seen many run into the 70s mostly in casinos known to have low RTP setups. Highest was 78 that was started at 42 with a 35 minor

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Impressive Seed Value - 78 is rarefied territory (I would think) and the population of people who have observed this or higher begins to drop off steeply I would guess.

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

My stats say Mini 30 is breakeven if minor/major at reset, minor 23 at breakeven if mini/major at reset, and major at breakeven at 40 if mini/minor at reset.

I also do combination plays when mini and minor total to 40.

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This one I took came off at 67. I've never seen one come off higher, but I'm guessing others with more exposure to the game have seen it come off higher than this.

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Fellow AP I'm friendly with had a mini run to 83. Sounds hard to believe but he showed me a picture to prove it. I believe he was playing $8/spin too.

Obviously he lost on the play. I don't remember how much he lost but I remember thinking at the time that it wasn't as bad as I would have thought given how high it ran. I believe he found it in the 30s.

If anyone remembers the Harley Davidson game, the progenitor of all these, I actually walked up to a mini that was over 100.

I believe Mickey had them as a play at 40 so 100 was extremely rare.

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

If anyone remembers the Harley Davidson game, the progenitor of all these, I actually walked up to a mini that was over 100.

I believe Mickey had them as a play at 40 so 100 was extremely rare.

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I believe the Harley was what set me down this path. Heard some guys talking about it at the poker table and how it never had any plays anymore. That must have been 5 years ago or so.

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

If anyone remembers the Harley Davidson game, the progenitor of all these, I actually walked up to a mini that was over 100.

I believe Mickey had them as a play at 40 so 100 was extremely rare.

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Nice find. Huge moneymakers - too bad they are all but extinct (AFAIK).

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Originally Posted by Badger

Fellow AP I'm friendly with had a mini run to 83. Sounds hard to believe but he showed me a picture to prove it. I believe he was playing $8/spin too.
Obviously he lost on the play. I don't remember how much he lost but I remember thinking at the time that it wasn't as bad as I would have thought given how high it ran. I believe he found it in the 30s.

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Holy smoke. Depending on what quartile of the 30s he found it in, that could lead to a $1500 loss give or take a few hundred unless he got some lucky wheel spins (minor,major, 5 free games with 3 wild reels, etc.) or a blackout on the base game along the way. Anyway, shit happens - naked Mini 30s need to be taken down, end of story.

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

If anyone remembers the Harley Davidson game, the progenitor of all these, I actually walked up to a mini that was over 100.

I believe Mickey had them as a play at 40 so 100 was extremely rare.

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The number was actually 45 on the mini. The Harley's started disappearing out of the casinos much quicker than most games. Just wasn't a popular game.

For outlier numbers, at Sandia, I once saw someone stuck on a Harley with the 3X at 340.

The only place left with Harley's is the Oregon Video Lottery. They have 2500 locations and there is at least 1 Harley at each location, sometimes 2. You can find it in all the bars and restaurants, plus there are standalones.

I have 2 sisters that live in Oregon so I stop in those places when passing thru. I pick off what I can but not enough money in it to hang out. To much time spent looking for plays. You have to stop at each location, go in and check for plays. There's a lot of driving around involved. Then by afternoon the seats are taken so you can't check anything.

Mickey (or others that do a lot of machine play)-

I'm not asking about specifics but just the general feelings about how slot play is doing. I'm not going to run out and be a competitor for machines.

Now that Covid has been settled down for a while, are things better, worse, or about the same as pre-Covid?

Bad:
More competition,
internet and web sites mean information spreads more quickly,
casinos are watching these machines more closely because of vultures harassing regular customers.

Good:
Most of the newcomers aren't much of a threat to the winnings of serious players, they are lazy, incompetent, underfunded, and degen gamblers that keep on playing after the machine goes negative, they are just annoying because they clog up the seats.
The manufacturers must like the variable state games since they write about it in their advertising.
The casinos like the games because they are popular and they hook the player into trying to hit a bonus because they read about it on the internet. The casinos get their cut regardless of who wins the bonus money.
So there are more variable state machines and more different games to analyze.

Better, worse, or can't see much change?

There is a machine out there called “Palace of Wonders” that is a 100% Harley clone. Here is a video of it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8X9Rf0XMsW4

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Originally Posted by cyberbabble

The manufacturers must like the variable state games since they write about it in their advertising.

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They like variable state games, but they love fake variable state games (i.e., perceived persistence, or fake AP).

https://ggbnews.com/article/not-all-...games-persist/

I've noticed some of the YouTube slot degens are aware of this stuff. Vegas Matt sometimes speculates as to whether a game is a real accumulator. He uses the word "perceived." He rarely plays anything with an outright edge, but will often seek out higher than average accumulations.

Is it possible the Harleys were mainly pulled due to licensing issues?

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Originally Posted by cyberbabble

Mickey (or others that do a lot of machine play)-

I'm not asking about specifics but just the general feelings about how slot play is doing. I'm not going to run out and be a competitor for machines.

Now that Covid has been settled down for a while, are things better, worse, or about the same as pre-Covid?

Bad:
More competition,
internet and web sites mean information spreads more quickly,
casinos are watching these machines more closely because of vultures harassing regular customers.

Good:
Most of the newcomers aren't much of a threat to the winnings of serious players, they are lazy, incompetent, underfunded, and degen gamblers that keep on playing after the machine goes negative, they are just annoying because they clog up the seats.
The manufacturers must like the variable state games since they write about it in their advertising.
The casinos like the games because they are popular and they hook the player into trying to hit a bonus because they read about it on the internet. The casinos get their cut regardless of who wins the bonus money.
So there are more variable state machines and more different games to analyze.

Better, worse, or can't see much change?

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2022 was my best year. Could have done the same this year but have slowed down. New accumulator games keep coming.

I avoid locations with heavy competition from other slot AP's because sweating the ploppies is not my style. When you've got heavy competition you have to work the busy times and sit and wait for ploppies to get up from machines in positive mode. So you are putting in a lot of hours.

When there is low or no competition a ploppie can get up from a machine in positive mode at 11 PM at night and the play is still sitting there when I come thru at 8 in the morning. I go where there is low or no competition.

I don't spend hours in the casino. I go in, make a lap around the machines picking off the plays I find, then leave. You can't do that if the competition is heavy-you won't find anything.

As long as manufacturer's keep coming out with the accumulator games slot AP's have a bright future.

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Originally Posted by The Boz

There is a machine out there called “Palace of Wonders” that is a 100% Harley clone. Here is a video of it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8X9Rf0XMsW4

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I've seen the game in a few locations.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Is it possible the Harleys were mainly pulled due to licensing issues?

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Licensing would have already been taken care of by the time the machines left development. I suppose the agreement could have only been valid for X amount of years which came to a close but not likely IMO.

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

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Originally Posted by jbjb

Is it possible the Harleys were mainly pulled due to licensing issues?

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Licensing would have already been taken care of by the time the machines left development. I suppose the agreement could have only been valid for X amount of years which came to a close but not likely IMO.

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I think these "name brand" machines pay a monthly royalty fee as long as they are installed. I may be wrong though.

In any case, money has to be paid to the royalty holder. This means less for the casino. So these machines tend to be tighter. If the machine doesn't get good play based on the name then the casinos are quick to swap them out for a better earning machine.

A few years back, my local casino had 3 Harleys. They didn't seem very popular and they didn't last long.

New record? Not mine thank god

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

New record? Not mine thank god

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Well it would be good if it was yours if you first jumped on it in the 80's or higher. Now I feel embarrassed about posting my 67 Mini. Thanks for posting.

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

New record? Not mine thank god

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Well it would be good if it was yours if you first jumped on it in the 80's or higher. Now I feel embarrassed about posting my 67 Mini. Thanks for posting.

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Excellent point! I hadn’t even considered that.

Of course unless you found it at a casino in Timbuktu probably tough to find one in the 80s as it would be about 5 deep in Chinese Campers by the time it got into the 30s.

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

Of course unless you found it at a casino in Timbuktu probably tough to find one in the 80s as it would be about 5 deep in Chinese Campers by the time it got into the 30s.

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Yes. You should of seen the crowd behind me when my 67 mini was in the 40s - it was like being in downtown Hong Kong.

Is it really the case that the Minor's playable point is at a lower number than the Mini? Seems somewhat counterintuitive. Is there any other game like this?

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Originally Posted by LuckyFour

Is it really the case that the Minor's playable point is at a lower number than the Mini? Seems somewhat counterintuitive. Is there any other game like this?

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Yes because you get 2 wild strips instead of 1 so each banked minor spin is much more valuable than a mini spin.

Off the top of my head, its clones Cats & owls are the same. There may others but I’d have to think about it.

When I get the time I'll post my Wolf Run Eclipse stats and strategy in it's own thread.

Collecting data for slot advantage play involves careful observation and systematic tracking during gameplay. A common approach is manual tracking, where you note down key information such as payouts, spin counts, bonus triggers, and meter movements in a notebook or spreadsheet. Observing patterns and frequencies, like how often bonuses or specific symbols appear, can help you identify opportunities. Some players also use video recording to capture gameplay, which allows them to review spins later and extract data with more accuracy. Collaboration with online forums or groups dedicated to slot advantage play can be beneficial, as players often share baseline data and strategies. If permitted by local laws and casino policies, certain software tools or apps can log data in real time to streamline the process.

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Originally Posted by NateBlazewind

Collecting data for slot advantage play involves careful observation and systematic tracking during gameplay. A common approach is manual tracking, where you note down key information such as payouts, spin counts, bonus triggers, and meter movements in a notebook or spreadsheet. Observing patterns and frequencies, like how often bonuses or specific symbols appear, can help you identify opportunities. Some players also use video recording to capture gameplay, which allows them to review spins later and extract data with more accuracy. Collaboration with online forums or groups dedicated to slot advantage play can be beneficial, as players often share baseline data and strategies. If permitted by local laws and casino policies, certain software tools or apps can log data in real time to streamline the process.

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Sounds like UNKewlJ!

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

This dude is a fraud. He just tries to piece together things that he imagines goes on based on a culmination of bits and pieces of stories he pulls from the Internet. Clown world.

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Hey retard, keep your garbage out of threads about AP, since it's a topic you know nothing about.