Odd/rare blackjack rule value?

My brother found and has been playing a game (electronic), where the player is allowed to hit again after doubling down. The example would be dealer shows a 7, player doubles down on 10 and receives a 3, and is then allowed to hit again.

It is beyond my ability to figure out exactly what this adds to the players advantage, and I see no way to run a simulation based on this rule, but it seems like it might be worthwhile. Anybody, mickey, maxpen, have any ideas? Or perhaps one of the math guys from the other forum that reads could PM me.

Thank you.

Not that I believe you but...

If you can keep hitting until you bust the only meaningful deviation is to double more hands than you would have, then play them out using basic strategy if you hit a stiff or soft hand.

There are a number of BJ calculators online that give the EV of a given strategy option vs a given upcard. Any hand that is +EV as a hit (meaning the hand actually has value, not less -EV than standing) becomes a double. That's it.

If you can only hit once I'd just use the above strategy except maybe if the original EV of hitting is barely above 0.

The UNKewl messenger gets shot, no matter what the message!

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Originally Posted by RobSinger

Kew faked his own death because he had no other choice for someone who is a going-nowhere nobody and needs to live a concocted internet forum life for relevance and attention....and that pretend life started to fall apart. He also needed to make up that silly story about being "robbed at gunpoint by a thug". Real life isn't television. People don't point guns at others unless they intend to use them, especially thugs. My guess is kew just finished losing his rent money, moved to the tunnels and felt obligated to share his version of why he was broke, thinking as his sorry ass always does that his "online forum friends" care half a shit about his "well-being".

Not sure why ANYBODY would mumble the word "kewlj" instead of his real name when standing next to him. That name is synonymous in online forums with "homo, liar, twit, neurotic, drama, attention, loser, and phony".

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

Not that I believe you but...

If you can keep hitting until you bust the only meaningful deviation is to double more hands than you would have, then play them out using basic strategy if you hit a stiff or soft hand.

There are a number of BJ calculators online that give the EV of a given strategy option vs a given upcard. Any hand that is +EV as a hit (meaning the hand actually has value, not less -EV than standing) becomes a double. That's it.

If you can only hit once I'd just use the above strategy except maybe if the original EV of hitting is barely above 0.

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Probably doesn't allow doubling on anything except 10 and 11, maybe 9. One really needs to know the rules and decks used.

You can double on any 2 cards. I have only played it once myself, so the one thing I am not sure of is how many times you can hit after the double. For example, using the example in my original post, if the player doubles his 10 vs dealer 7, draws a 3 on the double, hits again and draws a 2, I am not sure if he can hit a 2nd time after the double or not.

Otherwise the game is very standard rules, it is 6 decks, blackjack plays 3:2.

Smurgerburger, I appreciate the strategy suggestions. I was able to figure most of that out on my own. What I can't figure out is just exactly how much this adds? Is it enough that turns the game from -EV (roughly -.6%) to +ev? And if so, how much +ev? Seems to me this should be a fairly significant advantage.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

You can double on any 2 cards. I have only played it once myself, so the one thing I am not sure of is how many times you can hit after the double. For example, using the example in my original post, if the player doubles his 10 vs dealer 7, draws a 3 on the double, hits again and draws a 2, I am not sure if he can hit a 2nd time after the double or not.

Otherwise the game is very standard rules, it is 6 decks, blackjack plays 3:2.

Smurgerburger, I appreciate the strategy suggestions. I was able to figure most of that out on my own. What I can't figure out is just exactly how much this adds? Is it enough that turns the game from -EV (roughly -.6%) to +ev? And if so, how much +ev?

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If you can double any two it should easily make it +EV. And I'm not well versed in BJ math.

If you're not up to setting up a spreadsheet you can just double the +EV of the hitting situations that had absolute +EV, then subtract the basic strategy double EV to find the differential. Calculating the frequency of those situations is not that hard but takes a little calculating.

Even being able to double T vs T alone is probably worth quite a bit. (You know dealer doesn't have an A but you can draw one, then recoup some equity if you brick by hitting again.)


ETA As Max pointed out and I had not considered, usually you can only double 10/11. So quite the lucky machine here...

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

ETA As Max pointed out and I had not considered, usually you can only double 10/11. So quite the lucky machine here...

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Maybe I misspoke saying you can double on any 2 cards. I only played it for once myself. I do know you can double on 9 and 8 in addition to 10 and 11. Not sure about the soft doubles or doubling 7 or lower. So I shouldn't have said any 2 cards. I will check that out.

Keep in mind this is an electronic game fairly low limit, so if it is a +EV off the top, playing optimal strategy, it still isn't going to be huge bucks, but might be worthwhile enough to put some time in. I also suspect it won't last long once we hit it hard.

Anyway, that is all I am going to say for now. I was just hoping someone would have a number of just what it is worth.

Awesome.

Puts a smile on my face.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

ETA As Max pointed out and I had not considered, usually you can only double 10/11. So quite the lucky machine here...

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Maybe I misspoke saying you can double on any 2 cards. I only played it for once myself. I do know you can double on 9 and 8 in addition to 10 and 11. Not sure about the soft doubles or doubling 7 or lower. So I shouldn't have said any 2 cards. I will check that out.

Keep in mind this is an electronic game fairly low limit, so if it is a +EV off the top, playing optimal strategy, it still isn't going to be huge bucks, but might be worthwhile enough to put some time in. I also suspect it won't last long once we hit it hard.

Anyway, that is all I am going to say for now. I was just hoping someone would have a number of just what it is worth.

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Really this is hard to comprehend considering 2 guys who supposedly live together and play professionally have been on this machine. Is this going to be #3x something?

We're starting to get the "modest" theme going :D

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

Really this is hard to comprehend considering 2 guys who supposedly live together and play professionally have been on this machine.

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The claim that a professional blackjack player would not know the rules of a game that he is playing is absurd, and once again casts doubt upon his entire story.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Not sure about the soft doubles

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He should have kept his mouth shut. We would have thought he was a horse, and let him through.

https://i.imgur.com/6Llc5f9l.jpg

The funny thing is if KJ had a better reputation there would be people out there right now putting in the leg work to find this machine in LV, then figuring out where it's offered with a high max bet nationwide, then crushing it until it gets fixed.

And there you have it--again. Kew has such a boring, meaningless and sick life that he just HAS to concoct another bs thread just for the attention.

Absolutely pathetic.

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

The funny thing is if KJ had a better reputation there would be people out there right now putting in the leg work to find this machine in LV, then figuring out where it's offered with a high max bet nationwide, then crushing it until it gets fixed.

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I'm not sure. A machine that emulates the best known table game (simple thing) and has a losing strategy that isn't super complex ... That Is so far out that it is out there with hacking the cheat mode quickly in the shufflemaster. He would need a reputation of steel.

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

The funny thing is if KJ had a better reputation there would be people out there right now putting in the leg work to find this machine in LV, then figuring out where it's offered with a high max bet nationwide, then crushing it until it gets fixed.

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I'm not sure. A machine that emulates the best known table game (simple thing) and has a losing strategy that isn't super complex ... That Is so far out that it is out there with hacking the cheat mode quickly in the shufflemaster. He would need a reputation of steel.

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Let alone a video blackjack game that allows doubling on anything but 10 and 11 all while paying 3:2 on blackjack.

I like how it's a definite yes on 8 and 9 though while not being sure about any 2 cards....lol

Plus you would think that FraudJ would consult with the super AP that employs him from time to time. You know, the guy that calls him a salamander. :D

Damn,,,, Is this the best he could come up with, after a couple weeks, fabricating a new story? Time to return to the tunnels for something more believable...RIP

The thirty-one most major UNKewl lies I can think of concern (1) his lie about Moses showing up at a condo he claimed he lived at, (2) a condo it turned out that he has no ownership in and does not even live in, where he can’t even get his story straight about what is and what is not allowed by the condo CCRs, and lies about “renting it out” AirBnB style, (3) his faking his own death, (4) lying about ever having been robbed, (5) the nonsense about MGM execs showing up at his apartment on Halloween to give him player records on someone who isn't even MDawg, (6) the backrooming lawsuit, (7) the lies about news stories being broadcast about the backrooming incident, lies about the fictional settlement related to the fabricated incident, (8) the lie about being doxxed, or ever having his name placed in any casino database, (9) the rigged shuffler, (10) $50. free play for $100K win on a slot progressive, (11) $50K multi hand VP hit, (12) lied about hutting a $4000. Royal at Hooters (now OP) with $15. free play. (13) winning a car, (14) the lie about never asking anyone else to prove anything, (15) the lie about knowing attorney Nersesian well or at all, and having him on "speed dial," (16) lies that made it clear that he has never filed taxes as a professional gambler, (17) fabricated sports bets, (18) lies about that he has calculated his exact "expected win" over a decade and a half period, (19) lies about ever playing blackjack other than red green chip action as cover for a sugar daddy hustle, (20) lying about how “many” APs know him, (21) lies about how “many” APs have offered to “hire him” for their blackjack teams, (22) lying and claiming that he has never told others how they should post and about what, (23) lying about never posting again about this or that or on this or that forum, (24) lying about why he was nuked from WOV, trying to imply that he left on his own accord, (25) lying about that he “always discloses his socks up front” (q.v. Magister), (26) lying about having gone to college after claiming for years that he never did, (27) lies about the "oily" surfboard, (28) lied about whether or not he was gay, (29) the lie about even having a dead "soul mate" which he recanted, (30) continuing to lie about what the “about even” statement of MDawg means even after realizing that it means absolutely nothing, (31) a concocted electronic blackjack game he hadn't "studied up" on enough before presenting to the crowd.

That rigged shuffler story, besides not making any sense, reaffirmed in my mind that this guy really doesn't play much table games, because I'd expect such nonsense from a recreational player, not a card counter.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

I would put FraudJ's claim of a $100k lick on $50 free play as less likely than any of Grandpa Newell's stories.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

I do know. You're lying and you buried yourself yet again. Get help....RIP

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

He would be an idiot if he gave the chance of your 50 to 100k story to be anything but zero.

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He also can't give us details about what machine hit the $100K for $50 freeplay because...no amount of "studying up" can get him out from under these lies.

And as usual, as he gets hemmed in, he is changing the story on some of these. Even renounced the existence of his "soul mate" claims he lied about him and his gay marriage too!

You can say that again. :D

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Originally Posted by MDawg

The thirty-one most major UNKewl lies I can think of concern (1) his lie about Moses showing up at a condo he claimed he lived at, (2) a condo it turned out that he has no ownership in and does not even live in, where he can’t even get his story straight about what is and what is not allowed by the condo CCRs, and lies about “renting it out” AirBnB style, (3) his faking his own death, (4) lying about ever having been robbed, (5) the nonsense about MGM execs showing up at his apartment on Halloween to give him player records on someone who isn't even MDawg, (6) the backrooming lawsuit, (7) the lies about news stories being broadcast about the backrooming incident, lies about the fictional settlement related to the fabricated incident, (8) the lie about being doxxed, or ever having his name placed in any casino database, (9) the rigged shuffler, (10) $50. free play for $100K win on a slot progressive, (11) $50K multi hand VP hit, (12) lied about hutting a $4000. Royal at Hooters (now OP) with $15. free play. (13) winning a car, (14) the lie about never asking anyone else to prove anything, (15) the lie about knowing attorney Nersesian well or at all, and having him on "speed dial," (16) lies that made it clear that he has never filed taxes as a professional gambler, (17) fabricated sports bets, (18) lies about that he has calculated his exact "expected win" over a decade and a half period, (19) lies about ever playing blackjack other than red green chip action as cover for a sugar daddy hustle, (20) lying about how “many” APs know him, (21) lies about how “many” APs have offered to “hire him” for their blackjack teams, (22) lying and claiming that he has never told others how they should post and about what, (23) lying about never posting again about this or that or on this or that forum, (24) lying about why he was nuked from WOV, trying to imply that he left on his own accord, (25) lying about that he “always discloses his socks up front” (q.v. Magister), (26) lying about having gone to college after claiming for years that he never did, (27) lies about the "oily" surfboard, (28) lied about whether or not he was gay, (29) the lie about even having a dead "soul mate" which he recanted, (30) continuing to lie about what the “about even” statement of MDawg means even after realizing that it means absolutely nothing, (31) a concocted electronic blackjack game he hadn't "studied up" on enough before presenting to the crowd.

That rigged shuffler story, besides not making any sense, reaffirmed in my mind that this guy really doesn't play much table games, because I'd expect such nonsense from a recreational player, not a card counter.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

I would put FraudJ's claim of a $100k lick on $50 free play as less likely than any of Grandpa Newell's stories.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

I do know. You're lying and you buried yourself yet again. Get help....RIP

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

He would be an idiot if he gave the chance of your 50 to 100k story to be anything but zero.

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He also can't give us details about what machine hit the $100K for $50 freeplay because...no amount of "studying up" can get him out from under these lies.

And as usual, as he gets hemmed in, he is changing the story on some of these. Even renounced the existence of his "soul mate" claims he lied about him and his gay marriage too!

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I ask a simple question about the math for an unusual blackjack rule. For about a minute and a half, I thought I might get a reasonable answer. But alas, no. the trolls just continued with their trolling and obsession. What a forum you have here Dan Druff.

Anyway, I have since received the information I was seeking. So do your thing people. Troll to your hearts content.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

I ask a simple question about the math for an unusual blackjack rule. For about a minute and a half, I thought I might get a reasonable answer. But alas, no. the trolls just continued with their trolling and obsession. What a forum you have here Dan Druff.

Anyway, I have since received the information I was seeking. So do your thing people. Troll to your hearts content.

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The only one trolling in this thread is you. :cool:

This forum is onto you.....RIP

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

I ask a simple question about the math for an unusual blackjack rule. For about a minute and a half, I thought I might get a reasonable answer. But alas, no. the trolls just continued with their trolling and obsession. What a forum you have here Dan Druff.

Anyway, I have since received the information I was seeking. So do your thing people. Troll to your hearts content.

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Kew, wake up and smell the urine. You've claimed you know all these high-level/super-secret successful AP's around LV whom you are on such good terms with that you chose to "enlighten them" about the details of your "backrooming "incident, because you can "trust them" to keep the info "confidential".

So why didn't you bring this fabrication to "them" :) rather than here, where your reputation is shit, your credibility is non-existent, and your name is mud?

I did ask a couple blackjack type AP's that I network with. That is where I actually got an answer from.

I really didn't want to do that, because when someone helps you with something like that, they expect and rightfully so, something in return. And this is not my play to be sharing with anyone. This is my brothers play or find. He has shared it with me, but it isn't my place to share it with anyone, right now.

Anyway, you people go ahead and do what you do.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

I did ask a couple blackjack type AP's that I network with. That is where I actually got an answer from.

I really didn't want to do that, because when someone helps you with something like that, they expect and rightfully so, something in return. And this is not my play to be sharing with anyone. This is my brothers play or find. He has shared it with me, but it isn't my place to share it with anyone, right now.

Anyway, you people go ahead and do what you do.

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You're just salty because this tale that you've been working on didn't even pass the smell test after your 2nd post. Really,,,WTF is wrong with you?

As AIQ would say, "Get Help"

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

I did ask a couple blackjack type AP's that I network with. That is where I actually got an answer from.

I really didn't want to do that, because when someone helps you with something like that, they expect and rightfully so, something in return. And this is not my play to be sharing with anyone. This is my brothers play or find. He has shared it with me, but it isn't my place to share it with anyone, right now.

Anyway, you people go ahead and do what you do.

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An AP friend would want something in return? Just give him an "around-the-world-in-80-ways".

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

My brother found and has been playing a game (electronic), where the player is allowed to hit again after doubling down. The example would be dealer shows a 7, player doubles down on 10 and receives a 3, and is then allowed to hit again.

It is beyond my ability to figure out exactly what this adds to the players advantage, and I see no way to run a simulation based on this rule, but it seems like it might be worthwhile. Anybody, mickey, maxpen, have any ideas? Or perhaps one of the math guys from the other forum that reads could PM me.

Thank you.

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Oddly enough your buddy QFIT uses the same wording. This page assumes that you know the basic Blackjack rules. 97 common & oddball variations of Blackjack rules and play are described.


Hit after Double Down - This rule does not actually exist. However, in some casinos Surrender after Double Down does. Inexperienced dealers will sometimes allow you to Hit after a Double in these casinos. This is very valuable.

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

Oddly enough your buddy QFIT uses the same wording. This page assumes that you know the basic Blackjack rules. 97 common & oddball variations of Blackjack rules and play are described.


Hit after Double Down - This rule does not actually exist. However, in some casinos Surrender after Double Down does. Inexperienced dealers will sometimes allow you to Hit after a Double in these casinos. This is very valuable.

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I am not following your meaning with the "same wording" comment? I did check both Qfit's forum/book, and WoV for information on the added value of this rule/play before asking and didn't see anything.

However I have since received the information I was looking for, so no worries.

As far as inexperienced dealers, this is an electronic game, with an electronic dealer. So that does not apply. But again, I have what I needed now.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

This is like watching a drowning person reaching for a life preserver that's 10 arm lengths away.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

Oddly enough your buddy QFIT uses the same wording. This page assumes that you know the basic Blackjack rules. 97 common & oddball variations of Blackjack rules and play are described.


Hit after Double Down - This rule does not actually exist. However, in some casinos Surrender after Double Down does. Inexperienced dealers will sometimes allow you to Hit after a Double in these casinos. This is very valuable.

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I am not following your meaning with the "same wording" comment? I did check both Qfit's forum/book, and WoV for information on the added value of this rule/play before asking and didn't see anything.

However I have since received the information I was looking for, so no worries.

As far as inexperienced dealers, this is an electronic game, with an electronic dealer. So that does not apply. But again, I have what I needed now.

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Is the rule listed on the game rules screen? If not, it's probably a programming error.

You've given up enough information that it wont be hard to find.

I for one am glad kewl came back to share his discoveries.

Pretty dramatic gambling life for a humble mid-level card counter. $100k WAP wins here, multi-$100k settlements there, randomly finding a severely misprogrammed ETG even though you don't even play machines.

I mean I start feeling a little smug when I merely find a machine that gives the wrong amount of points.

Advantage player or advanced parody?

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

Pretty dramatic gambling life for a humble mid-level card counter. $100k WAP wins here, multi-$100k settlements there, randomly finding a severely misprogrammed ETG even though you don't even play machines.

I mean I start feeling a little smug when I merely find a machine that gives the wrong amount of points.

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This tunnel dwelling fraud doesn't have a clue as to what is really going on out there. He just reads shit on the Internet and lets his imagination run wild...lol

He shore do' try hard to please, though.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

However I have since received the information I was looking for, so no worries.

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Wonderfull, please enlighten us. What does that add?

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

However I have since received the information I was looking for, so no worries.

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Wonderfull, please enlighten us. What does that add?

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LOL! Axel, what were you saying about people should keep their mouths shut?

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

Wonderfull, please enlighten us. What does that add?

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It mitigates the advantage lost by not knowing if he can double down on soft hands.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

I ask a simple question about the math for an unusual blackjack rule. For about a minute and a half, I thought I might get a reasonable answer. But alas, no. the trolls just continued with their trolling and obsession. What a forum you have here Dan Druff.

Anyway, I have since received the information I was seeking. So do your thing people. Troll to your hearts content.

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KewlJ, is this a rule described in the help screens or could it be a bug in the software?

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

You can't get to the truth with a fraud.

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Originally Posted by DRich

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

I ask a simple question about the math for an unusual blackjack rule. For about a minute and a half, I thought I might get a reasonable answer. But alas, no. the trolls just continued with their trolling and obsession. What a forum you have here Dan Druff.

Anyway, I have since received the information I was seeking. So do your thing people. Troll to your hearts content.

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KewlJ, is this a rule described in the help screens or could it be a bug in the software?

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If it were real there is no chance it would be intentional.

It would make the game +EV off the top (given everything else KJ claimed about it) and it's not even something people want. It's not like it's Spanish 21 or some game designed to have zany rules that make it more interesting than normal BJ.

But... see Mdawg for further commentary.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

However I have since received the information I was looking for, so no worries.

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Wonderfull, please enlighten us. What does that add?

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LOL! Axel, what were you saying about people should keep their mouths shut?

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That ship had sailed to point Nemo and back after the first post.