Another casino back rooming incident

I hear there has been another backrooming incident at the same casino that I was involved in last year. No physical injuries that I have heard of, but casino personél escorted a player to the back room where he was forced to sign a trespass document. The player was not counting cards, but I am told, using another completely legal table game advantage play.

This casino apparently doesn't understand the point that they cannot force a player who has done nothing wrong, nothing illegal, into the backroom, for whatever reason. That is simply illegally detaining. On top of that, a signed document carries no more weight than a verbal trespass, so there is just no reason to be taking anyone to the backroom. It is illegal!!

I don't get why this particular casino seems to be having a hard time understanding this point. Is it because the casino doesn't actually pay any money that may be part of any settlement? What about the Insurance company? Isn't there a point that they won't insure this casino for this kind of incident? What am I missing? :confused:

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Originally Posted by MDawg

Always the same UNKewl pattern:

1. Post some nonsense.

2. Is challenged.

3. Fictionalizes about someone or other who
-wrote to him about it
-did the same play
-is aware that UNKewlJ did whatever it is UNKewlJ is claiming he did
-was seen doing the same play.

It's never enough that he did something, he has to also create some lies surrounding corroboration (that always center around unnamed, unknown, never to be revealed players in his fable).

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

There is a clear trend that has developed now. All of KewlJ's implied associates are turning out to be other invented characters in his years of lies. ...RIP

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Insurance doesn't cover intentional torts such as false imprisonment... or of course #completefraudulence.

With most lies, the devil is in the details, but with an UNKewl fable, nothing makes sense, from the brittle bones to the rush to settlement without a lawsuit even being filed (after initially claiming that a lawsuit was filed).

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I don't think there was any incident which was lawsuit-worthy, which is why we got so many changing and bizarre versions of the same story.

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Originally Posted by MDawg

What happened here, is that something happened to someone - to more than one person, and UNKewlJ took it upon himself to put together a composite story about a series of events.

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

Insurance doesn't cover intentional torts such as false imprisonment... or of course #completefraudulence.

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WRONG. My settlement was 100% paid by an insurance company.

But as usual, you people just want to troll.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

Insurance doesn't cover intentional torts such as false imprisonment... or of course #completefraudulence.

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WRONG. My settlement was 100% paid by an insurance company.

But as usual, you people just want to troll.

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What was the name of the insurance company?

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

Insurance doesn't cover intentional torts such as false imprisonment... or of course #completefraudulence.

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WRONG. My settlement was 100% paid by an insurance company.

But as usual, you people just want to troll.

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What was the name of the insurance company?

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Come on man. I am not allowed to say that. The company was 2 letters. Something & somerhing.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

WRONG. My settlement was 100% paid by an insurance company.

But as usual, you people just want to troll.

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What was the name of the insurance company?

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Come on man. I am not allowed to say that. The company was 2 letters. Something & somerhing.

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To terms of your settlement forbid you to say the name of the insurance company that the casino uses?

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

To terms of your settlement forbid you to say the name of the insurance company that the casino uses?

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Absolutely!!!

I cannot discuss terms or any parties involved.

That is the Point of a Confidential settlement agreement.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

Insurance doesn't cover intentional torts such as false imprisonment... or of course #completefraudulence.

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WRONG. My settlement was 100% paid by an insurance company.

But as usual, you people just want to troll.

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Posting this here, knowing exactly the response you’re going to get before you post, is trolling

Do you think the casino would behave even worse if vct hadn't convinced you to sue them?

They still sound out of control
Committing BLATANTLY illegal acts.

I haven't researched or looked into the legality of being backroomed in sin city but it's obviously an interesting subject.

Is there a Nevada statute or case law which prohibits it, other than general notions of false imprisonment?

Do the casinos give the detainee the initial choice to follow them to the back room?

For example, do they preface things with "Will you please come with us?"

If so they can argue waiver / voluntary compliance.

Were I ever asked to go with staff I'd refuse and attempt to leave...as should we all, in my opinion: "Just say NO."

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

Anything requiring research with FraudJ is a complete waste of time.

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UNKewlJ's fictional settlement was coughed up even before any kind of lawsuit was filed (after trying desperately to establish that there was a lawsuit), and quickly, making this new wrinkle in the lie, that it was paid out by an insurance company (on a Saturday non-banking day, via transfer :D) even more absurd.

What is beyond amusing too is that UNKewlJ offers opinions as to that others here might be trying to protect her anonymity, when all she does is try desperately via repeated posts to establish that this (and a plethora of other stories that would jeopardize her anonymity) really happened. Why would anyone here care about UNKewlJ's anonymity, when she obviously is not concerned.

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

I don't believe any part of your backroom story and I'm skeptical about 75% of everything else.

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Originally Posted by redietz

You have fake deaths, marriages and deaths, evil doxxers, backroom arm-breakers, and after-the-fact-"misdirection" that would have been unnecessary if you simply don't make public the narrative.

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Originally Posted by MDawg

The UNKewl one was a liar, and like most liars, he was constantly changing his stories, altering time and personnel from one telling to the next. One time he would tell a story about someone, next time he would switch the story around to give himself the lead. He would sit in the casino coffee shop over coffee and pound cake, talking at random about his experiences, posting constantly on internet forums, plotting ways to take down all those he is envious of, never actually entering the casino, afraid like a nervous poodle to even play.

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Originally Posted by MisterV

I haven't researched or looked into the legality of being backroomed in sin city but it's obviously an interesting subject.

Is there a Nevada statute or case law which prohibits it, other than general notions of false imprisonment?

Do the casinos give the detainee the initial choice to follow them to the back room?

For example, do they preface things with "Will you please come with us?"

If so they can argue waiver / voluntary compliance.

Were I ever asked to go with staff I'd refuse and attempt to leave...as should we all, in my opinion: "Just say NO."

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As per asking "will you come with me/us"? That certainly wasn't my experience. I had two guys "escorting" me to the back room, one had hold of my arm. I mean, I could have probably broken that hold, but the point is, at least in my case, which is all I will speak of, there was nothing "voluntary" about it.

The precedent, was the James Grosjean case. I believe the term used in that case was "illegal imprisonment", but I could be wrong. But THAT is the case that changed everything and we had more than a decade of 'polite backoffs' as opposed to the back-rooming shit. THAT was most of my time in Vegas. I guess I was lucky to have come along at just the right time.

But there seems to have been a bit of a shift in the last several years (post covid, not that it has anything to do with covid). there have been 4 or 5 back-rooming type incidents in this time period. And several by this one casino. I don't know what changed. But it is worth noting that the casino in question is owned/run by an old school type of owner, from a longtime Vegas casino family.

I think, and this is just an opinion, that it is going to take not just a couple of these cases costing the casino and/or insurance companies 6 figure settlements or verdicts, but the negative publicity that goes with that. Unfortunately, that second part, going public, I wasn't willing to do, and other players may not be willing to do. James was willing. Thank you James.

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Originally Posted by MisterV

I haven't researched or looked into the legality of being backroomed in sin city but it's obviously an interesting subject.

Is there a Nevada statute or case law which prohibits it, other than general notions of false imprisonment?

Do the casinos give the detainee the initial choice to follow them to the back room?

For example, do they preface things with "Will you please come with us?"

If so they can argue waiver / voluntary compliance.

Were I ever asked to go with staff I'd refuse and attempt to leave...as should we all, in my opinion: "Just say NO."

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They ask you to accompany them and then compel you when you refuse. (I guess sometimes they give up when you refuse but I've not heard of that).

The relevant tort is false imprisonment. They need something like reasonable suspicion that you have committed a gaming related crime to detain you (I assume there are other permissible grounds like actively commiting a violent crime but they aren't relevant here).

The problem is that with card counting and holecarding and other table games AP the suspected acts are not crimes in NV in the first place, therefore detaining you on suspicion of them is a false imprisonment.

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Originally Posted by mcap

Posting this here, knowing exactly the response you’re going to get before you post, is trolling

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The first poster, anywhere, that I, finally, put on ignore. Ha.

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

The problem is that with card counting and holecarding and other table games AP the suspected acts are not crimes in NV in the first place, therefore detaining you on suspicion of them is a false imprisonment.

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There is a bit of a tricky area here. Even if you are completely in the right, your reaction, should you get loud, argumentative, in any way violent, even just pulling away from a hold, they can claim you are creating a disturbance. So you really need to be careful and in control. You really should have planned out the scenario, of just what you will do when/if this situation occurs.

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Originally Posted by MDawg

What’s crazy about all this is that any normal person would realize that his ever changing story and desperate attempts to put out fires is just confirming that his story is false, and making him look even worse, but a sociopathic liar can’t help himself, and keeps lying just to cover up other lies.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

Compulsive liar is a fair assessment of what he is. If people go back and look at your last few stories they will see a trend in you always changing the story after you get caught lying.

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Oh thank god. The political bickering around here was getting tiresome. Please post more details as you get them kewl.

Notice the embarrassing pattern kew follows here--to a tee.

He begins to get nervous whenever he feels he's no longer the center of attention; he then fabricates a gaming-related story in order to satisfy his craving for relevance, and gets back on track; his poorly thought out details that always do him in are easily spotted by the forum's true AP's and gamblers; as his tale begins to unravel and be exposed as just another lie, he scrambles to "adjust the facts" while claiming those who know better are nothing but "trolls"; he then argues with anyone and everyone who reveal his lying, posting repetitive long rambling essays in the process; and after suffering the same humiliation for the umpteenth time, he angrily announces that he's "DONE WITH THE FORUM, AND IS LEAVING IT FOR GOOD THIS TIME BECAUSE HE'S HAD ENOUGH!!"

But seeing that the little fairy is lacking in discipline, has zero integrity/conviction/strength, and feels far inferior than anyone who caught him in his various lies....he ALWAYS returns due to his being addicted to forum posting where he can continually go on concocting his phony-ass life. And all of this is basically supported by what I know about his failure of a real life.

No wonder the twit hides, and posts about his mommy so much.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

claiming those who know better are nothing but "trolls"

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I'd say all that's pretty accurate but you forgot the part where he claims the trolls know he's telling the truth and just don't want to admit it.

The End....

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Originally Posted by jdog

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

claiming those who know better are nothing but "trolls"

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I'd say all that's pretty accurate but you forgot the part where he claims the trolls know he's telling the truth and just don't want to admit it.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

It's not just that he lies.

It's the seriousness with which kewlJ tells these lies, and then lashes out at those who doubt them. There's a certain arrogance to those posts, in the tone, "Of course this is fucking true, and you're a complete idiot for even doubting this."

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Or, to put it more succinctly,

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Originally Posted by seedvalue

My fucking god I can’t stand you. You are so fucking fake bro not real.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

What I object to is making up complete bullshit lies in an attempt to discredit anyone who dared say they didn't believe him.

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:D:D:D

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

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Originally Posted by MisterV

I haven't researched or looked into the legality of being backroomed in sin city but it's obviously an interesting subject.

Is there a Nevada statute or case law which prohibits it, other than general notions of false imprisonment?

Do the casinos give the detainee the initial choice to follow them to the back room?

For example, do they preface things with "Will you please come with us?"

If so they can argue waiver / voluntary compliance.

Were I ever asked to go with staff I'd refuse and attempt to leave...as should we all, in my opinion: "Just say NO."

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They ask you to accompany them and then compel you when you refuse. (I guess sometimes they give up when you refuse but I've not heard of that).

The relevant tort is false imprisonment. They need something like reasonable suspicion that you have committed a gaming related crime to detain you (I assume there are other permissible grounds like actively commiting a violent crime but they aren't relevant here).

The problem is that with card counting and holecarding and other table games AP the suspected acts are not crimes in NV in the first place, therefore detaining you on suspicion of them is a false imprisonment.

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Was searching for something unrelated & stumbled on this article on the FBI’s website of all places discussing what casino security can and can’t do.

Don’t know how accurate this is and its from 2015 but interesting reading

Heres the link to the whole article & I pasted the relevant part of the article below.

https://leb.fbi.gov/articles/feature...and-challenges

A major difference between private and public policing is that private security officers are not bound by the U.S. Supreme Court’s Fifth and Sixth Amendment decisions, such as Miranda v. Arizona, informing suspects of their right to an attorney prior to questioning, or Escobedo v. Illinois, allowing suspects to have an attorney present during questioning.8 Security officers can interview suspects without “Mirandizing” them and attempt to get a statement. Once they obtain the information, they turn the matter over to the local police.

These security officers have several options in their approaches to investigations, and their success often lies in the ability to obtain an incriminating statement from a suspect. Sometimes they attempt to exert leverage by implying that “If you cooperate, we will tell the police that you worked with us, and you might not be arrested.” They send a clear message that “We got you, but we will be your advocate with the police.” In the security officers’ world, potential violators have few, if any, rights while visiting the casino property; however, officers can make only citizens’ arrests because they lack the full arrest powers of the public police.

Private security officers must follow many of the same laws as municipal police. They cannot detain someone for a misdemeanor offense unless they actually see the act being committed in their presence. Although, shoplifting, even if not observed directly, involves the security officer making a citizen’s arrest, detaining the suspect, and calling local police. A common approach with trespassers is to give first-time offenders a notice, then, if they return, security has discretion (as do the public police) to detain or not. Security officers can warn and release the individual again or detain the person, call the police, and sign a complaint. Local law enforcement determines whether to release or arrest depending on certain factors, such as whether the jail is crowded, if the individual has identification, or whether the person is employed.

Interesting. So next question, what are the limitations of a citizen's arrest?

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Originally Posted by jdog

Interesting. So next question, what are the limitations of a citizen's arrest?

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Varies by state but biggest difference is police have qualified immunity if they fuck something up but everyone else does not.

So a wrongful citizens arrest could potentially lead to financial liability or criminal charges (false imprisonment, kidnapping, etc.)

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

So a wrongful citizens arrest could potentially lead to financial liability or criminal charges (false imprisonment, kidnapping, etc.)

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That's a huge difference. So were back to it would be a very bad idea to detain someone for counting or anything technically legal.

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Originally Posted by jdog

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

So a wrongful citizens arrest could potentially lead to financial liability or criminal charges (false imprisonment, kidnapping, etc.)

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That's a huge difference. So were back to it would be a very bad idea to detain someone for counting or anything technically legal.

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Of course it would be a bad idea. BUT this is routinely what occurred for years, even decades, before Grosjean changed that with his lawsuit and publicity around it

Now if you are speaking specifically about my case or the case I mentioned to start this thread (for which I only know what was told to me), neither of us were detained for card counting (me) or another AP play (second case).

We were both detained and taken to the backroom to sign trespass documents, which is even more bizarre to me. Signing a trespass document carries no more weight than a verbal trespass. So it is an exercise for no reason. :confused:

It is just a bad call or policy by someone in authority, for absolutely no beneficial reason for the casino. But then again, no one ever said some of these casino policies were anything but flat out stupidity.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Signing a trespass document carries no more weight than a verbal trespass.

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Even if it technically carries no more legal weight it does give them a paper trail and also something to show, and possibly intimidate, the violator the next time they're caught.

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Originally Posted by jdog

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Signing a trespass document carries no more weight than a verbal trespass.

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Even if it technically carries no more legal weight it does give them a paper trail and also something to show, and possibly intimidate, the violator the next time they're caught.

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BINGO! Intimidate has been a casino tactic forever.

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

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Originally Posted by jdog

Interesting. So next question, what are the limitations of a citizen's arrest?

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Varies by state but biggest difference is police have qualified immunity if they fuck something up but everyone else does not.

So a wrongful citizens arrest could potentially lead to financial liability or criminal charges (false imprisonment, kidnapping, etc.)

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The first football season that I stayed in Las Vegas (early 80's), my roommate (Andre) was a club security person by night and an occasional bounty hunter by day. He was very careful in how he handled things at night, and his bounty hunting obviously only occurred when a warrant had already been issued for an established felony and/or someone had skipped bail. I'm not sure exactly how it worked, but I believe he was considered an "officer of the law" when tracking down bail jumpers.

So my question is whether that is significantly different from "making a citizen's arrest?" If casino security is making "citizens' arrests" every time, I would think that puts them in a very pain-in-the-ass, vulnerable-to-lawsuit position. Are they always "officers of the law?" or not really? Are they "officers of the law" only in retrospect, namely, AFTER they legally prove somebody was breaking the law? That's one tenuous profession. If you are wrong once, you should be the person arrested.

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Originally Posted by redietz

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

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Originally Posted by jdog

Interesting. So next question, what are the limitations of a citizen's arrest?

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Varies by state but biggest difference is police have qualified immunity if they fuck something up but everyone else does not.

So a wrongful citizens arrest could potentially lead to financial liability or criminal charges (false imprisonment, kidnapping, etc.)

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The first football season that I stayed in Las Vegas (early 80's), my roommate (Andre) was a club security person by night and an occasional bounty hunter by day. He was very careful in how he handled things at night, and his bounty hunting obviously only occurred when a warrant had already been issued for an established felony and/or someone had skipped bail. I'm not sure exactly how it worked, but I believe he was considered an "officer of the law" when tracking down bail jumpers.

So my question is whether that is significantly different from "making a citizen's arrest?" If casino security is making "citizens' arrests" every time, I would think that puts them in a very pain-in-the-ass, vulnerable-to-lawsuit position. Are they always "officers of the law?" or not really? Are they "officers of the law" only in retrospect, namely, AFTER they legally prove somebody was breaking the law? That's one tenuous profession. If you are wrong once, you should be the person arrested.

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I think that probably what makes the biggest difference is if a casino security guard screws up, nobody is going to come after the security guard financially.

The victim would come after the deep pocketed casino as they would have more assets than a security guard (lol)

Criminally if you are talking about Nevada, DA is probably not going to prosecute casino security guards criminally for anything other than very serious offensives.

I remember a story about a bouncer in a casino nightclub killing a patron and they did get prosecuted.

I believe that was in Reno at the El Dorado several years ago.

But just for back rooming someone, even if it’s a crime, since NV is so casino friendly, unlikely to lead to a criminal prosecution. Plus victim would be after a financial settlement & probably wouldn’t care much about the criminal side.

The problem continues to be, as it has for years/decades, is that card counting or most legitimate advantage plays aren't illegal. And the casinos and casino personnel KNOW this, but often will pretend they don't.

I can't tell you the number of times there has been a discission of card counting right at the table between some patron and a pit critter. These discussion used to make me uncomfortable and I would stay silent. But later it became an opportunity for me to chime in and say something like "card counting doesn't work. The only way to win, is to increase your wagers when you hit a winning streak". :cool: I would say this as a deflection, a pre-emptive explanation for why I varied my bets. Who knows if it bought me anything?

But anyway, these discussions usually went something like this: Player would ask "have you ever caught anyone counting cards?" Pit critter response: "Oh sure". Player: "what did you do?". Pit critter: "we turned them over to the police to be arrested".

I kid you not....I have probably heard this or something very similar a dozen times in my years in Vegas. Despite that every pit critter knows what he just said is bullshit and there is nothing illegal about card counting. :rolleyes:

And THAT is what I mean when I say intimidation tactic. And security guards surrounding a player that they are going to back off or trespass, just an extension of that kind of intimidation tactic. And back-roomings have always been a further escalation of this intimidation tactic. And especially today, with this guise of backrooming so a player can sign a trespass agreement. What complete nonsense.

Btw, it is hard to bite my tongue and say nothing when I hear some pit critter say such a stupid thing as they turn card counters over to the police. It is hard, but I do it. :cool:

The casinos will also distance themselves from any security person (and throw them under the bus), even though the security person is doing exactly what they are told.

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Originally Posted by MDawg

The truth is … UNKewlJ hasn’t spent 20 years playing blackjack. He’s spent 20 years trying to convince people that he’s been playing blackjack.

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