Recent Vegas blackjack experience

I will not name the casino, but I will tell you that it's an independent property in Vegas, and I had never been backed off there. I also hadn't played blackjack there since the early 2010s. When I did play, I encountered zero heat, and lost a few hundred dollars before quitting. I did use a card.

I returned to the casino in December 2024, and sat at the only non-continuous shuffler table, $25 minimum. They demand ID from everyone to play.

I gave mine, and asked them to reprint me a card.

I played about 9 hands and never raised my bet over $25, for reasons I'm sure you all can guess.

The pit boss came to me and said, "Todd, I'm afraid this is going to have to be your last hand. You can't play at this table."

I asked him why, and he said it was a "decision from upstairs". I asked if I was being banned from the casino, he said no. I asked if I could play any other blackjack table besides this one, and he said yes.

I left the joint, $25 down.

Clearly they were protecting the only non-CSM table, but I've never seen anything like this before.

ID requirement to play? Kicking me before I ever raise my bet? Being banned from the game despite having no negative history there, no play in over a decade, and very few overall sessions lifetime? Having one non-CSM table which they guard like Fort Knox?

Bizarre.

Interesting. Questions if I may:

You say they requested ID from everyone. Some of the east coast locations like Atlantic City do that but I have never encountered that in Vegas. Younger looking people and people they already have some reason to suspect sure. So what did they do with the IDs? Obviously not just look, checking age, but ran through something that flagged you. It would be disturbing if this east coast "trend" where moving west. But like I said, I haven't encountered it.

I would love to know the casino and see no reason for you to protect them, but in the absence of that, was it a casino that has either changed hands since you last played? Or have you played somewhere else recently and encountered heat and/or a backoff that might have been entered into a database? And remember, sometimes these entries are made without any kind of incident directly to you. For example, the entry can be made after you have left, when a review was completed, or someone took a second look at your play.

One other thing: There are certain games that are "counter traps" in Vegas. Often these are better rules/lower HA double deck games. And one of the things you will notice is that there is only the one double deck game. Your case sounds a little different but similar with only 1 non-CSM game. Haven't encountered it, but almost sounds like the same kind of trap. Question: did they demand ID from everyone at only that table by chance?

I have a long list of quotes from a guy who posts as bigplayer on forums. He was/is a long time member of one of the top card counting teams for decades (not MIT) and lives or did last I heard in Vegas. Big player had a quote that to avoid any kind of counter identifying trap and prolong longevity, you should identify the best game in the casino and avoid it. :cool: Just food for thought.

Again, I would love to know the casino and am not sure why you don't want to publicly name it as it doesn't sound like you have much of a future there counting cards. Plus they already have identified YOU. But if you still don't want to name them, would you share that in private?

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

This dude is a fraud. He just tries to piece together things that he imagines goes on based on a culmination of bits and pieces of stories he pulls from the Internet. Clown world.

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Really!! You are going to hijack forum owner Dan Druff's thread with you obsessive trolling?

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Originally Posted by Punkcity

Unfortunately you have ZERO credibility bukkake boy.
You back flip on ALL of your statements of abstaining from interactions with posters here.

You are an emotionally hijacked puppet twitching in the male urinal , no one believes a word you post. The above statement by you is a worthless piece of garbage as per usual.
Boogie woogie bukkake boy from company B . ( B for bullshit of course)

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It wouldn't surprise me if Dan started this thread to further reel in kew, sporting more of his gleaning of other real blackjack players' knowledge and experiences in order to continue on with his "convincing" program.

And now kew claims to be able to meaningfully count 3 tables. He's convinced HIMSELF that everyone believes he's aced the 2 table count. The Munch on steroids....with a twist: they're both wimpy/they're both gimpy. But Munchkin has a good reputation. :)

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

It wouldn't surprise me if Dan started this thread to further reel in kew, sporting more of his gleaning of other real blackjack players' knowledge and experiences in order to continue on with his "convincing" program.

And now kew claims to be able to meaningfully count 3 tables. He's convinced HIMSELF that everyone believes he's aced the 2 table count. The Munch on steroids....with a twist: they're both wimpy/they're both gimpy. But Munchkin has a good reputation. :)

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As if anyone cares what YOU think, you old demented fool.

If I was interested in a colored persons opinion about blackjack, I would sooner ask Tasha. After all she is a "blackjack pro" according to one of her handles.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

It wouldn't surprise me if Dan started this thread to further reel in kew, sporting more of his gleaning of other real blackjack players' knowledge and experiences in order to continue on with his "convincing" program.

And now kew claims to be able to meaningfully count 3 tables. He's convinced HIMSELF that everyone believes he's aced the 2 table count. The Munch on steroids....with a twist: they're both wimpy/they're both gimpy. But Munchkin has a good reputation. :)

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As if anyone cares what YOU think, you old demented fool.

If I was interested in a colored persons opinion about blackjack, I would sooner ask Tasha. After all she is a "blackjack pro" according to one of her handles.

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The Blackjackpro Sock name was a HUGE mistake. I am no Blackjack Professional and got ragged and dragged so hard over that Sock name and my CLEARLY not being a Blackjack Professional. I asked Norm to change it to Blackjack Newbie, something I should have named that Sock in the first place. Norm changed it to Blackjack Newbie. :)

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Originally Posted by Tasha

The Blackjackpro Sock name was a HUGE mistake. I am no Blackjack Professional and got ragged and dragged so hard over that Sock name and my CLEARLY not being a Blackjack Professional. I asked Norm to change it to Blackjack Newbie, something I should have named that Sock in the first place. Norm changed it to Blackjack Newbie. :)

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I am aware Tasha. It was humor. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

sporting more of his gleaning of other real blackjack players' knowledge and experiences in order to continue on with his "convincing" program.

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Rob, before whoever is babysitting you locks you away for a nap, let me ask you this: This charge that you have repeated and gotten others to repeat, that my knowledge is really other people's knowledge....what if that were true? Would it really matter, as long as the knowledge being shared was valid, mathematical knowledge that works, as to playing with an advantage?

Because in a sense that is what most of us do. That is what knowledge is. Things you learn from other players, forums and books, which are other players passing on knowledge. I mean there is only a handful of mickeycrimms and axelwolfs and a few others that can look at a gambling opportunity and figure the advantage out for themselves.

And I have always said, what I do is mostly learned from others. A little bit of my own twist and trial and error, but mostly learned from other players. I am not ashamed of that. So what is your problem grandpa?

A Jew, an Arab and a gay walk into a casino to play Blackjack………

Dan,
did you try to order a whole pizza from the food court before you sat down?

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Originally Posted by The Boz

A Jew, an Arab and a gay walk into a casino to play Blackjack………

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Well THIS gay guy wouldn't play at the same table as Druff. But I would play at the same table as the smelly Arab. Tell me why? :confused:

A quick Google search using your name would indicate that you are a poker pro.
Casinos are going to be suspicious about a poker pro playing non poker games.
Especially when it's a known vulnerable game like blackjack.
From their point of view it's would be better to bump you rather than take a chance you are a card counter.
Looks like the casino was right.

Perhaps they might have found out you are connected to KJ the famous blackjack pro.

I am wondering if Druff's use of the term "indepedent" means not associated with any other casinos anywhere or just here in Vegas?

There really are only a. Small handful of casinos not associated with ANY other casinos anywhere and you can throw out F Bleau because it is not 10 years old.

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Originally Posted by MDawg

UNKewlJ has remained consistent in being

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

the king of lying

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

sporting more of his gleaning of other real blackjack players' knowledge and experiences in order to continue on with his "convincing" program.

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Rob, before whoever is babysitting you locks you away for a nap, let me ask you this: This charge that you have repeated and gotten others to repeat, that my knowledge is really other people's knowledge....what if that were true? Would it really matter, as long as the knowledge being shared was valid, mathematical knowledge that works, as to playing with an advantage?

Because in a sense that is what most of us do. That is what knowledge is. Things you learn from other players, forums and books, which are other players passing on knowledge. I mean there is only a handful of mickeycrimms and axelwolfs and a few others that can look at a gambling opportunity and figure the advantage out for themselves.

And I have always said, what I do is mostly learned from others. A little bit of my own twist and trial and error, but mostly learned from other players. I am not ashamed of that. So what is your problem grandpa?

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No one ever said the information you continue to plagiarize wasn't good, mathematically sound stuff. That's what serious, serious phonies do--they use other people's info as a way of deceiving readers into believing they're the ticket.

No one's locking anyone up around here. We're in Little Canada, Mn. getting ready to take our entire family out to Porterhouse Steakhouse. So while you're shoving down some cheap & greasy Victory Burger fries or some of that disgustingly thick and slimy pork belly from Bacon Nation--par for the course for LV slug gambling addicts--think of me gobbling down a prawn cocktail or crab cakes just before those delicious lobster tails.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

It wouldn't surprise me if Dan started this thread to further reel in kew, sporting more of his gleaning of other real blackjack players' knowledge and experiences in order to continue on with his "convincing" program.

And now kew claims to be able to meaningfully count 3 tables. He's convinced HIMSELF that everyone believes he's aced the 2 table count. The Munch on steroids....with a twist: they're both wimpy/they're both gimpy. But Munchkin has a good reputation. :)

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Actually counting 2 or 3 tables is really quite easy.

Look there’s some tables over there! One, two, three! I counted them.

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

Look there’s some tables over there! One, two, three! I counted them.

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Haha! Except, that isn't the way card counting works. You aren't really counting anything, except maybe when you first start out. You aren't sitting there doing some kind of running count +1, +2, +1, +2, +1, 0, -1, 0. What you are doing is canceling cards at a glimpse.

If you look at a table and see hands of A,6, 8,5,7, 9,J; 8,8,3; 5,4; You don't even see the 5 cards that are 7,8,9, You see 3 high cards (10 value and ace) and 5 low cards (2-6) that cancel out for a total of +2. Half a blink of an eye and those 13 cards register as +2. No counting. And then you start to see that everywhere. Every table you look at, whether blackjack or not, in a half blink of an eye, you pick up a count. You are on auto pilot. That is when tracking a second and or 3rd table occurs. You don't even practice it. It just happens.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

. We're in Little Canada, Mn. getting ready to take our entire family out to Porterhouse Steakhouse.

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That is a taco bell, not a steakhouse, Big spender.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

Look there’s some tables over there! One, two, three! I counted them.

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Haha! Except, that isn't the way card counting works. You aren't really counting anything, except maybe when you first start out. You aren't sitting there doing some kind of running count +1, +2, +1, +2, +1, 0, -1, 0. What you are doing is canceling cards at a glimpse.

If you look at a table and see hands of A,6, 8,5,7, 9,J; 8,8,3; 5,4; You don't even see the 5 cards that are 7,8,9, You see 3 high cards (10 value and ace) and 5 low cards (2-6) that cancel out for a total of +2. Half a blink of an eye and those 13 cards register as +2. No counting. And then you start to see that everywhere. Every table you look at, whether blackjack or not, in a half blink of an eye, you pick up a count. You are on auto pilot. That is when tracking a second and or 3rd table occurs. You don't even practice it. It just happens.

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Actually in spite of all the trolling and joking that goes on around here, this seems perfectly reasonable to me.

What he is trying to say, but not saying precisely correctly, is common knowledge, no one ever accused UNKewlJ of anything other than lifting what he heard or read. However, even with what he's trying to say he's not saying it precisely - the point is for the average counter the numbers that "cancel out" are viewed in pairs, not clumps, not individually. Someone this scatter brained is incapable of connecting more than pairs, but pairs is the way most counters would express what he is trying to say.

For example, a king and a 2 cancel each other out, 5 and a 10, cancel each other out, THAT'S what he is trying to say in his roundabout damaged brain way. A,6 cancel each other out. That's what the average counter would notice right away. Obviously on a simple count 7,8,9 are zero, but the "tool" to which he is alluding that helps basic counters is viewing the pairs where the numbers cancel each other out quickly, versus adding them. It does make things easier for the average counter.

You have to remember, he can't even keep track of how many years he supposedly was in college, and never even learned the difference between the words affect and effect which is stronger proof that he's a high school dropout than any lies he tries to lay down. It is inconceivable that someone could get through most any college let alone a private one and not know such things.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Kew you're not fooling anybody with your stoopid "my blackjack journey" stuff....and you never have. You've never done anything more than "lift" information, procedures and tactics off of the true players and concocted stories of your own with it. If you're not seeing this reputation you've earned, then you are certified Philadelphia-dumb. And continuously trying to divert and deflect by using the mdawg "journey" while showing your irritation with and hatred of wizard for ignoring your constant nonsense & obsession, all you're doing is making an even bigger fool of yourself.

THAT'S how things really work.

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Originally Posted by MDawg

What he is trying to say, but not saying precisely correctly, is common knowledge, no one ever accused UNKewlJ of anything other than lifting what he heard or read. However, even with what he's trying to say he's not saying it precisely - the point is for the average counter the numbers that "cancel out" are viewed in pairs, not clumps, not individually. Someone this scatter brained is incapable of connecting more than pairs, but pairs is the way most counters would express what he is trying to say.

For example, a king and a 2 cancel each other out, 5 and a 10, cancel each other out, THAT'S what he is trying to say in his roundabout damaged brain way. A,6 cancel each other out. That's what the average counter would notice right away. Obviously on a simple count 7,8,9 are zero, but the "tool" to which he is alluding that helps basic counters is viewing the pairs where the numbers cancel each other out quickly, versus adding them. It does make things easier for the average counter.

You have to remember, he can't even keep track of how many years he supposedly was in college, and never even learned the difference between the words affect and effect which is stronger proof that he's a high school dropout than any lies he tries to lay down. It is inconceivable that someone could get through most any college let alone a private one and not know such things.

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Cancelling out pairs is undoubtedly the first step. And when I say that, again, I am not talking about a conscious decision that "hey I am going to cancel pairs of cards one on one". It just happens. No conscious decision. Auto pilot. You probably don't even realize it is happening at the time.

And that is the first but only the first step. The real "jump" comes when you start seeing the 7,8,9 as zero. Or maybe a more precise way of saying it that you don't even recognize those cards. They might as well be jokers sitting there. They have absolutely no relevance to you. So basically, you don't even see them there. They are invisible. That leaves you with whatever cards do really matter, and you can quickly cancel them out in clumps. NOT 1 on 1, but CLUMPS! 8, 9 cards you see as a single number of +2, +3, -2 ect.

That is when you can track multiple tables with really no effort. You don't need to see every card. Just a glimpse of the table for a tiny fraction of a second. If someone shifts in their seat and blocks some view until you can shift and restore a line of sight...no problem.

And the canceling out in a fraction of a second, a "glimpse" as I call it, opens up other opportunities as well, that I am not going to go into.

Dawg if you weren't so hell bent on trolling and trying to convince people how stupid I am with "drop out and homeless" comments, we might be able to have an occasional conversation that we both and others could benefit from. But, NO, you just get so bent out of shape at anyone that dares say they don't believe something you say, that you go beserk....literally. You go deep down the rabbit (or Troll hole). :rolleyes:

And I will say this which is a little controversial in the card counting world. This multi-card or clump cancelation, can only be done with a single level one type count. And all the practice in the world isn't going to change that. It is a function of how the brain processes things. This is why I have always been a proponent of level one counts (like hi-lo). Or more accurately I guess I should say I have been a proponent of level one counts since about a 6 month period of playing a level 2 count, RPC 15 years ago. :D Any slight advantage gained by a level 2 count is dwarfed by the opportunities opened up by keeping it simple.

Somewhere deep in Norm's "Modern blackjack" there is a brief section comparing different level counts. Norm makes a simplistic statement that the brain processes what it sees in a level 1 count differently than a level 2 count. And that is all you need to know. And Norm is no huge proponent of level 1 counts. He learned the game, playing a level 2 count, Revere Point Count. And his book is written in a way that almost promotes Felt Count which is basically RPC with different index plays. I am sure he would scream that he is not promoting anything. I am just saying that is what he is comfortable with. But even so, he recognizes that the counts are processed differently. And kudos to him for that.

But really, I hope we are going to circle back around to the situation Druff posted about in the original post of this thread. There really are only a very small number of casinos that fit the bill or independent, especially if he is really talking complete independent and not just independent in Vegas area, and then you can eliminate a couple that weren't around in 2010 when he last played. And then you think about who has all or mostly CSM (which probably takes them out of my rotation of games) and the final thing is who is sweaty or paranoid enough to embrace the practice of IDing everyone.

I would like confirmation from Druff, but can't force him to do so, although I don't know why he wouldn't unless he is going to try going the fake ID, and disguise route. (and that doesn't work either. :D)

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by The Boz

A Jew, an Arab and a gay walk into a casino to play Blackjack………

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Well THIS gay guy wouldn't play at the same table as Druff. But I would play at the same table as the smelly Arab. Tell me why? :confused:

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Well of course anyone would love the opportunity to spread 50-1 at a DD game for hours. It would be the most profitable day of your career.

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Originally Posted by MDawg

The longer the UNKewl post, the more lies it contains.

And of course, there will be some regurgitation of theory he pulled from somewhere or other blah blah blah as he tries to make it seem like he has actually played and not just read about it.


UNKewlJ has gotten to the pitiful point where he cries over being picked on, and wonders why anyone would bother picking on such a helpless person in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Tater/Moses

Poor poor KJ. Always the victim.

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Since apparently it's fine to post non topical messages in any thread,

I see that retard ahigh is back at the wiz forum. He's the one who told everyone they were retarded for thinking his retarded $100 minimum pinball gambling machine was retarded. How many installs did it get? 0? Retard.

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Originally Posted by cyberbabble

A quick Google search using your name would indicate that you are a poker pro.
Casinos are going to be suspicious about a poker pro playing non poker games.
Especially when it's a known vulnerable game like blackjack.
From their point of view it's would be better to bump you rather than take a chance you are a card counter.
Looks like the casino was right.

Perhaps they might have found out you are connected to KJ the famous blackjack pro.

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I did think that perhaps they googled me, saw some things which didn't strike their fancy (poker pro, running this forum, having a gambling related podcast, etc), and got rid of me for that reason.

I'm just wondering if anyone else has had an experience like this.

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Originally Posted by The Boz

A Jew, an Arab and a gay walk into a casino to play Blackjack………

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The Jew says the table minimums are too high, the Arab threatens to blow up the casino unless he wins, and the gay guy takes the dealer into a back room and sucks him off.

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Originally Posted by jdaewoo

Since apparently it's fine to post non topical messages in any thread,

I see that retard ahigh is back at the wiz forum. He's the one who told everyone they were retarded for thinking his retarded $100 minimum pinball gambling machine was retarded. How many installs did it get? 0? Retard.

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All time idiot. Everyone (almost everyone) told him he was a clown for pushing it as a table game. He was adamant that it wouldn’t have a TITO and needed a “dealer” to work the game.

The only person supporting him was Axel, who obviously saw an opportunity when he mentioned it was a potential AP play with +EV states at times. Imagine going into a casino and pitching those details to an executive that makes placement decisions.

Add in the guy worked for a well known scamming, fraudulent CEO with a history of bankruptcy and prison time.

Truly a legendary time at WoV. Guessing the guy was fucked up the other night and decided to come back and respond to a decade old post he already had responded to years earlier.

Sadly the guy was a helluva video game designer back in the day.

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Originally Posted by The Boz

A Jew, an Arab and a gay walk into a casino to play Blackjack………

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"Ah, look at that: free, self serve coffee and soft drinks, just what I like."

"Ah, there are real toilets with real toilet paper: I don't need to use my left hand."

"Ah, I hope that cute dealer flashes...and I don't mean his card."

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I did think that perhaps they googled me, saw some things which didn't strike their fancy (poker pro, running this forum, having a gambling related podcast, etc), and got rid of me for that reason.

I'm just wondering if anyone else has had an experience like this.

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I highly doubt there is someone sitting at a computer in the pit (or even upstairs) that is googling everyone from their Id. ;)

But I also feel like Druff isn't providing as much information as he can. And that is fine. He may have reasons to. :rolleyes:

Personally I would like to know more about the "independent casino" comment. Are we talking Mohegan Sun (virgin), or Palms, T.I. or M resort that have no other sister type properties here in Vegas, or are we talking truly independent like Strat, F Bleu? Oh wait, is Strat associated with somebody like Az Charlie? I forget. How about Sahara? Anyway, would need to know Druff's definition of independent.

But on the other hand, no casino that relies heavily on database info is really independent.

I would also ask, any backoffs or heat anywhere recently? Or even in last year or two? If you play Vegas regularly, you will see pit folks that you recognize from other properties. They do move around, get laid off, take new jobs ect. especially when a new casino opens. I know a player that was backed off a place he thought he was good at only to discover someone in the pit that he had previously had a nasty backoff with at another casino. So THAT happens.

But to me, taking Druff at his word (and I do) and hoping he isn't leaving a major part of the story out, The thing that stands out most to me, is CSMs at every table except this one, where there was seemingly a good playable game. That is a bit of a red flag to me.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I did think that perhaps they googled me, saw some things which didn't strike their fancy (poker pro, running this forum, having a gambling related podcast, etc), and got rid of me for that reason.

I'm just wondering if anyone else has had an experience like this.

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I highly doubt there is someone sitting at a computer in the pit (or even upstairs) that is googling everyone from their Id. ;)

But I also feel like Druff isn't providing as much information as he can. And that is fine. He may have reasons to. :rolleyes:

Personally I would like to know more about the "independent casino" comment. Are we talking Mohegan Sun (virgin), or Palms, T.I. or M resort that have no other sister type properties here in Vegas, or are we talking truly independent like Strat, F Bleu? Oh wait, is Strat associated with somebody like Az Charlie? I forget. How about Sahara? Anyway, would need to know Druff's definition of independent.

But on the other hand, no casino that relies heavily on database info is really independent.

I would also ask, any backoffs or heat anywhere recently? Or even in last year or two? If you play Vegas regularly, you will see pit folks that you recognize from other properties. They do move around, get laid off, take new jobs ect. especially when a new casino opens. I know a player that was backed off a place he thought he was good at only to discover someone in the pit that he had previously had a nasty backoff with at another casino. So THAT happens.

But to me, taking Druff at his word (and I do) and hoping he isn't leaving a major part of the story out, The thing that stands out most to me, is CSMs at every table except this one, where there was seemingly a good playable game. That is a bit of a red flag to me.

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Druff is good at leaving out the Paul Harvey portion (yea old reference) at times. But he usually reveals it later after comments. Not sure if he will in this case though.

I’m actually shocked you can’t figure out the casino from his clues. Granted with that description it wouldn’t be in your rotation, but I figured you visit them all occasionally to see if anything changed and keep a database.

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Originally Posted by The Boz

Druff is good at leaving out the Paul Harvey portion (yea old reference) at times. But he usually reveals it later after comments. Not sure if he will in this case though.

I’m actually shocked you can’t figure out the casino from his clues. Granted with that description it wouldn’t be in your rotation, but I figured you visit them all occasionally to see if anything changed and keep a database.

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I used to do a lot more "scouting" when I was playing the local circuit, playing 30+ casinos every month. I would make it a point to check out casinos that weren't in my rotation every 3 or 4 months just to see if anything changed (like whatever was keeping them from my rotation). I also relied on CBJN for that, but there is nothing like doing your own homework. :)

But last couple years, I don't play much of that local's circuit anymore. Still hit a few of the Station casinos now and then, but not much else that was in my rotation. Now I mostly play the strip on weekends and holidays. And I avoid the CSM heavy places, so I suspect this place mentioned isn't on my frequently visit list.

CSM are actually a tell to me. Forget all that garbage about how they save casinos money by eliminating down time. They are expensive to have and keep running (maintenance). And there is a segment of players beside card counters that just don't like playing them. So if a casino goes that route and is CSM heavy, that is just a major tell that they are sweaty and paranoid. Even if somehow a good playable game appears, look out.

Even if I don't know a casinos reputation, which I make it my business to know, I can figure out if they are likely to be playable or not (by my standards) before I ever play a hand.

And yes, I do have a couple ideas as to what casino it might be. It isn't super important. I just am hoping this trend, which like I said, occurs back east some, doesn't start becoming a thing here.

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Originally Posted by The Boz

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I did think that perhaps they googled me, saw some things which didn't strike their fancy (poker pro, running this forum, having a gambling related podcast, etc), and got rid of me for that reason.

I'm just wondering if anyone else has had an experience like this.

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I highly doubt there is someone sitting at a computer in the pit (or even upstairs) that is googling everyone from their Id. ;)

But I also feel like Druff isn't providing as much information as he can. And that is fine. He may have reasons to. :rolleyes:

Personally I would like to know more about the "independent casino" comment. Are we talking Mohegan Sun (virgin), or Palms, T.I. or M resort that have no other sister type properties here in Vegas, or are we talking truly independent like Strat, F Bleu? Oh wait, is Strat associated with somebody like Az Charlie? I forget. How about Sahara? Anyway, would need to know Druff's definition of independent.

But on the other hand, no casino that relies heavily on database info is really independent.

I would also ask, any backoffs or heat anywhere recently? Or even in last year or two? If you play Vegas regularly, you will see pit folks that you recognize from other properties. They do move around, get laid off, take new jobs ect. especially when a new casino opens. I know a player that was backed off a place he thought he was good at only to discover someone in the pit that he had previously had a nasty backoff with at another casino. So THAT happens.

But to me, taking Druff at his word (and I do) and hoping he isn't leaving a major part of the story out, The thing that stands out most to me, is CSMs at every table except this one, where there was seemingly a good playable game. That is a bit of a red flag to me.

---

Druff is good at leaving out the Paul Harvey portion (yea old reference) at times. But he usually reveals it later after comments. Not sure if he will in this case though.

I’m actually shocked you can’t figure out the casino from his clues. Granted with that description it wouldn’t be in your rotation, but I figured you visit them all occasionally to see if anything changed and keep a database.

---

Why would any casino do this so early in a session? If they have Todd's personal profile on file, they have to know that he spends money on restaurants and such, so asking him to step away when he's betting $25 a hand is just costing them more money than they protect here.

Maybe the answers lie in, as someone said, the definition of "independent" or in, as you say, Paul Harvey's "the rest of the story."

Maybe they backed him off specifically to protect their restaurant staffs.

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

Maybe they backed him off specifically to protect their restaurant staffs.

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Or their casino carpets.

He ain't a floor shitter like Karen, is he?

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I did think that perhaps they googled me, saw some things which didn't strike their fancy (poker pro, running this forum, having a gambling related podcast, etc), and got rid of me for that reason.

I'm just wondering if anyone else has had an experience like this.

---

I highly doubt there is someone sitting at a computer in the pit (or even upstairs) that is googling everyone from their Id. ;)

But I also feel like Druff isn't providing as much information as he can. And that is fine. He may have reasons to. :rolleyes:

Personally I would like to know more about the "independent casino" comment. Are we talking Mohegan Sun (virgin), or Palms, T.I. or M resort that have no other sister type properties here in Vegas, or are we talking truly independent like Strat, F Bleu? Oh wait, is Strat associated with somebody like Az Charlie? I forget. How about Sahara? Anyway, would need to know Druff's definition of independent.

But on the other hand, no casino that relies heavily on database info is really independent.

I would also ask, any backoffs or heat anywhere recently? Or even in last year or two? If you play Vegas regularly, you will see pit folks that you recognize from other properties. They do move around, get laid off, take new jobs ect. especially when a new casino opens. I know a player that was backed off a place he thought he was good at only to discover someone in the pit that he had previously had a nasty backoff with at another casino. So THAT happens.

But to me, taking Druff at his word (and I do) and hoping he isn't leaving a major part of the story out, The thing that stands out most to me, is CSMs at every table except this one, where there was seemingly a good playable game. That is a bit of a red flag to me.

---

I have mostly stopped playing blackjack for the past 17 or so years.

Eventually I realized that I became too well known in Vegas from poker, so it became too tough to play anonymously. Additionally, people deduced from knowing me that I likely wouldn't be playing -EV blackjack at middle-or-higher stakes, so it was easy to guess that I was counting. And by "people", I meant anyone who saw me at the table who knew of me -- including pit bosses and eye-in-the-sky employees.

So I gave it up, except in rare spots where I decided I didn't care if I was completely banned from the properties.

So to answer your question, no, I haven't been backed off in many years, and the backoff I got last week is the closest thing I've had to one in a long time.

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Originally Posted by redietz

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Originally Posted by The Boz

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

I highly doubt there is someone sitting at a computer in the pit (or even upstairs) that is googling everyone from their Id. ;)

But I also feel like Druff isn't providing as much information as he can. And that is fine. He may have reasons to. :rolleyes:

Personally I would like to know more about the "independent casino" comment. Are we talking Mohegan Sun (virgin), or Palms, T.I. or M resort that have no other sister type properties here in Vegas, or are we talking truly independent like Strat, F Bleu? Oh wait, is Strat associated with somebody like Az Charlie? I forget. How about Sahara? Anyway, would need to know Druff's definition of independent.

But on the other hand, no casino that relies heavily on database info is really independent.

I would also ask, any backoffs or heat anywhere recently? Or even in last year or two? If you play Vegas regularly, you will see pit folks that you recognize from other properties. They do move around, get laid off, take new jobs ect. especially when a new casino opens. I know a player that was backed off a place he thought he was good at only to discover someone in the pit that he had previously had a nasty backoff with at another casino. So THAT happens.

But to me, taking Druff at his word (and I do) and hoping he isn't leaving a major part of the story out, The thing that stands out most to me, is CSMs at every table except this one, where there was seemingly a good playable game. That is a bit of a red flag to me.

---

Druff is good at leaving out the Paul Harvey portion (yea old reference) at times. But he usually reveals it later after comments. Not sure if he will in this case though.

I’m actually shocked you can’t figure out the casino from his clues. Granted with that description it wouldn’t be in your rotation, but I figured you visit them all occasionally to see if anything changed and keep a database.

---

Why would any casino do this so early in a session? If they have Todd's personal profile on file, they have to know that he spends money on restaurants and such, so asking him to step away when he's betting $25 a hand is just costing them more money than they protect here.

Maybe the answers lie in, as someone said, the definition of "independent" or in, as you say, Paul Harvey's "the rest of the story."

---

I don't blame them for banning me if they realized I was likely to be a counter.

I'm just wondering how it happened, given my (very light and ancient) history there.

I can tell you for certain that this casino is extremely paranoid and protective of their one non-CSM table. It would actually not surprise me if their surveillance staff was hyper focused on that table, and really did google any new player. Again, it's also possible (and in fact more likely) that someone up there knew me or knew of me, and said, "Fuck no... this guy is only playing because it's +EV for him."

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

Maybe they backed him off specifically to protect their restaurant staffs.

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That was a very funny laugh-out-loud moment. GOOD ONE!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

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Originally Posted by redietz

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Originally Posted by The Boz

Druff is good at leaving out the Paul Harvey portion (yea old reference) at times. But he usually reveals it later after comments. Not sure if he will in this case though.

I’m actually shocked you can’t figure out the casino from his clues. Granted with that description it wouldn’t be in your rotation, but I figured you visit them all occasionally to see if anything changed and keep a database.

---

Why would any casino do this so early in a session? If they have Todd's personal profile on file, they have to know that he spends money on restaurants and such, so asking him to step away when he's betting $25 a hand is just costing them more money than they protect here.

Maybe the answers lie in, as someone said, the definition of "independent" or in, as you say, Paul Harvey's "the rest of the story."

---

I don't blame them for banning me if they realized I was likely to be a counter.

I'm just wondering how it happened, given my (very light and ancient) history there.

I can tell you for certain that this casino is extremely paranoid and protective of their one non-CSM table. It would actually not surprise me if their surveillance staff was hyper focused on that table, and really did google any new player. Again, it's also possible (and in fact more likely) that someone up there knew me or knew of me, and said, "Fuck no... this guy is only playing because it's +EV for him."

---

Bro, you have to be making this all up because we have guys on here who can play and win hundreds of thousands for weeks and months at a time while getting blasted with extravagant comps crammed all the way up their ass. All while the pit bosses are high-fiving them and telling them they always win.

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

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Originally Posted by redietz

Why would any casino do this so early in a session? If they have Todd's personal profile on file, they have to know that he spends money on restaurants and such, so asking him to step away when he's betting $25 a hand is just costing them more money than they protect here.

Maybe the answers lie in, as someone said, the definition of "independent" or in, as you say, Paul Harvey's "the rest of the story."

---

I don't blame them for banning me if they realized I was likely to be a counter.

I'm just wondering how it happened, given my (very light and ancient) history there.

I can tell you for certain that this casino is extremely paranoid and protective of their one non-CSM table. It would actually not surprise me if their surveillance staff was hyper focused on that table, and really did google any new player. Again, it's also possible (and in fact more likely) that someone up there knew me or knew of me, and said, "Fuck no... this guy is only playing because it's +EV for him."

---

Bro, you have to be making this all up because we have guys on here who can play and win hundreds of thousands for weeks and months at a time while getting blasted with extravagant comps crammed all the way up their ass. All while the pit bosses are high-fiving them and telling them they always win.

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Thats a great point! But Dan if it is true all you have to do is AP slots.

According to a video Tableplay posted if you learn advantage slots all you have to do is show up at the casino and they’ll take you straight to the cage and load you up with all their money.

Then the casino won’t have any money left to pay any of the other slot players, & they’ll have to shut down!

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I don't blame them for banning me if they realized I was likely to be a counter.

I'm just wondering how it happened, given my (very light and ancient) history there.

I can tell you for certain that this casino is extremely paranoid and protective of their one non-CSM table. It would actually not surprise me if their surveillance staff was hyper focused on that table, and really did google any new player. Again, it's also possible (and in fact more likely) that someone up there knew me or knew of me, and said, "Fuck no... this guy is only playing because it's +EV for him."

---

Bro, you have to be making this all up because we have guys on here who can play and win hundreds of thousands for weeks and months at a time while getting blasted with extravagant comps crammed all the way up their ass. All while the pit bosses are high-fiving them and telling them they always win.

---

Thats a great point! But Dan if it is true all you have to do is AP slots.

According to a video Tableplay posted if you learn advantage slots all you have to do is show up at the casino and they’ll take you straight to the cage and load you up with all their money.

Then the casino won’t have any money left to pay any of the other slot players, & they’ll have to shut down!

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LMFAO - great stuff Ben. You and Smurgerburger are on fire with some comedy gold.

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

When the heat gets hot take a real life vacation from your virtual life. Just one step away from faking your own death, eh?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I can tell you for certain that this casino is extremely paranoid and protective of their one non-CSM table. It would actually not surprise me if their surveillance staff was hyper focused on that table, and really did google any new player. Again, it's also possible (and in fact more likely) that someone up there knew me or knew of me, and said, "Fuck no... this guy is only playing because it's +EV for him."

---

The more you describe this situation, the more it fits the VERY definition of a "counter trap". One game that is better than the rest in that casino that is hawked very closely. There have always been several counter traps on the strip at any time. Usually they are double deck games when the rest of the casino is mediocre shoe games. This case with the lone non-CSM even more severe. And that is before you even get into the requesting Id situation.

I have never really understood the value of having a counter trap to a casino. But obviously for a card counter they can present huge risk beyond just that casino.

I wouldn't have played that game, even before the requested Id. I am a little surprised you didn't see something wrong with that situation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

Bro, you have to be making this all up because we have guys on here who can play and win hundreds of thousands for weeks and months at a time while getting blasted with extravagant comps crammed all the way up their ass. All while the pit bosses are high-fiving them and telling them they always win.

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Fantastic story! (or is it fantastical). THAT story has all the makings of a good movie or book or other fictional piece. All it needs is a clever name....like The Adventure of....

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Originally Posted by MisterV

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

Maybe they backed him off specifically to protect their restaurant staffs.

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Or their casino carpets.

He ain't a floor shitter like Karen, is he?

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Speaking of floor shitters, I pissed your boy Dieter off again.

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Originally Posted by MDawg

UNKewlJ has remained consistent in being

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

the king of lying

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Why isn't this retard working on more fake baccarat sessions?

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Originally Posted by jdaewoo

Why isn't this retard working on more fake baccarat sessions?

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Silly boy...haven't you heard?

He's been busy hiring staff to run his seven figure manision in LV; plus arrange to repaint his Gulfstream, service his Bugatti and polish his investment algorithms to corner the market.

He truly is a Legend in his own mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jdaewoo

Why isn't this retard working on more fake baccarat sessions?

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I think it has finally started to set in that no one believes any of it or even responds anymore. Now he is just a troll. And not even a "good" troll if there is such a thing. He is just a garden variety, losing gambler type troll. A second or third rate Rob Singer if that is possible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

.Now he is just a troll. And not even a "good" troll if there is such a thing. He is just a garden variety, losing gambler type troll. A second or third rate Rob Singer if that is possible.

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I would agree based on my time spent on these forums that Rob has played the troll game better than most, maybe better than any of us.

Whether that is a plus or a minus is up for discussion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

I think it has finally started to set in that no one believes any of it or even responds anymore.

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I stand corrected. A quick look at WoV shows a couple responses in the "adventure" thread. Drich has posted that he doesn't even get dressed anymore, spending the day in his pajamas, and Evenbob has shared that he sees his wife 3 times a month, which seems about right to him. Great stuff. :D

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

So I bid you farewell.

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Originally Posted by Gottlob1

Not someone in control of even his own life.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Is this like the 10th time you've announced you're leaving? Why are you still here?

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I asked if I was being banned from the casino, he said no. I asked if I could play any other blackjack table besides this one, and he said yes.

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Why?

Why would you even think about asking this? They hadn't told you you can't so you can. Why give them any additional ideas they haven't already restricted you from?

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Originally Posted by The Boz

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Originally Posted by jdaewoo

Since apparently it's fine to post non topical messages in any thread,

I see that retard ahigh is back at the wiz forum. He's the one who told everyone they were retarded for thinking his retarded $100 minimum pinball gambling machine was retarded. How many installs did it get? 0? Retard.

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All time idiot. Everyone (almost everyone) told him he was a clown for pushing it as a table game. He was adamant that it wouldn’t have a TITO and needed a “dealer” to work the game.

The only person supporting him was Axel, who obviously saw an opportunity when he mentioned it was a potential AP play with +EV states at times. Imagine going into a casino and pitching those details to an executive that makes placement decisions.

Add in the guy worked for a well known scamming, fraudulent CEO with a history of bankruptcy and prison time.

Truly a legendary time at WoV. Guessing the guy was fucked up the other night and decided to come back and respond to a decade old post he already had responded to years earlier.

Sadly the guy was a helluva video game designer back in the day.

---

Advantage play opportunity or not, it was an incredibly well-designed and thought-out game that was different than anything out there.
I did not agree with the fact that he kept pushing the advantage play narrative I think he even named it Advantage Play xxxx, I told him I absolutely disagreed with that aspect. He should have not been touting it as an advantage play game, he should have downplayed that entire aspect.

But I've always been fascinated by pinball...I love to play it, but I don't do it very often. It was pretty funny because I had never played it before and yet I was still beating him and his team on their own game for money, they finally cried mercy even when I kept offering them better odds.

I don't think he failed at making a great game I think he got in bed with the wrong person.

It wouldn't have mattered anyway. It could have been backed by a proper company, renamed, reprogrammed, and put on the floor with a bill validator while being classified as a slot, and it still would have failed.

Skill gaming/ gambling was all the rage and almost everyone thought it was the future of casino gambling, but skill gaming failed miserably across the board.

That begs the question, will it ever circle back around?

No. The major premise that there are a significant number of adults who grew up playing video games nonstop would gravitate towards skill based gambling didn't have a basis in reality.

Skill based gaming by it's nature is also much "slower" than traditional slots. This means you have to either decrease the RTP, increase the minimum wager, or increase the duty cycle to match existing machines.

There could be environments like the sports bar at the LINQ where a niche gambling skill game could survive. Some kind of heads up or 4,,6,8 way contest that bros could battle over. I know some games like this were tested years ago. But nothing widespread is going to succeed, and if there aren't enough install opportunities, why would a company put in serious effort to develop and market the product.

Cleopatra pinball, Texas pinball and Space Invaders FTW.

The largest business case for skill-based gaming is likely machines designed to skirt local laws on gambling. I remember seeing some machines where you had to 'nudge' the reels in a certain direction to get the payout. Of course it was very obvious which direction to nudge them but this was called 'skill'.

I subscribed to some used slot facebook groups out of curiosity. There was a vendor today that posted selling 'skill based games' that were supposedly legal. I was going to post the link but i couldn't tell if my FB account was somehow embedded in the URL it gave me so I didn't.

In my part of the world low-end bars are being taken over by these slots. I stopped at one recently because I thought it was an old bar that opened up. Was with my dad and wanted to have a couple of beers with him. Go inside to find out you can't buy beers but you get them free if you buyin to the machines. I should have just done that but instead we went down the road to a real bar.. which also had a dozen modern looking slot machines lining the walls. Go into the city proper and the municipal police crack down on these things.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jdaewoo

Some kind of heads up or 4,,6,8 way contest that bros could battle over.

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Do those guys have the money and dedicated attention that it would take to put any significant coin in? They had games exactly like that, but they never lasted. :(

Skill based slots were doomed to fail because from a gambler’s standpoint the whole purpose of a slot machine is to zone out and mindlessly try to get lucky and win.

People interested in something more engaging that they could control were already going to be playing poker, black jack, video poker etc.

I guess sort of an analogy would be a brothel that adds a skill component to spending time with it’s ladies.

You still have to pay, but you would have to throw game on them too & win their approval & pick them up prior to doing the deed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

Skill based slots were doomed to fail because from a gambler’s standpoint the whole purpose of a slot machine is to zone out and mindlessly try to get lucky and win.

People interested in something more engaging that they could control were already going to be playing poker, black jack, video poker etc.

I guess sort of an analogy would be a brothel that adds a skill component to spending time with it’s ladies.

You still have to pay, but you would have to throw game on them too & win their approval & pick them up prior to doing the deed.

---

I think you're absolutely right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

Skill based slots were doomed to fail because from a gambler’s standpoint the whole purpose of a slot machine is to zone out and mindlessly try to get lucky and win.

People interested in something more engaging that they could control were already going to be playing poker, black jack, video poker etc.

I guess sort of an analogy would be a brothel that adds a skill component to spending time with it’s ladies.

You still have to pay, but you would have to throw game on them too & win their approval & pick them up prior to doing the deed.

---

Bingo

Plus, the "skill" was something that people would develop via practice, and the casual Vegas visitor ain't puttin' in the time for that shit.

The "skill slot machine" 2010s fantasy was one cooked up by gaming execs who thought they understood millennials.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

Skill based slots were doomed to fail because from a gambler’s standpoint the whole purpose of a slot machine is to zone out and mindlessly try to get lucky and win.

People interested in something more engaging that they could control were already going to be playing poker, black jack, video poker etc.

I guess sort of an analogy would be a brothel that adds a skill component to spending time with it’s ladies.

You still have to pay, but you would have to throw game on them too & win their approval & pick them up prior to doing the deed.

---

Bingo

Plus, the "skill" was something that people would develop via practice, and the casual Vegas visitor ain't puttin' in the time for that shit.

The "skill slot machine" 2010s fantasy was one cooked up by gaming execs who thought they understood millennials.

---

Exactly.

Although it is a bit different I see cashless gaming as a similar fantasy.

Casinos are pushing it they say primarily to attract younger customers.

It is a big benefit to casinos as it both reduces expenses and encourages more play, but your average degenerate or recreational player young or old knows it’s probably not a good idea to be playing slot machines with your bank account linked directly to the slot machine.

Right now it will be a niche market although its probably inevitable that sometime in the future it will be widely used.

But the industry has been overly optimistic on customer response to cashless gaming in the short term.

Which leads to a question about "morality:" Should we Americans continue to allow corporations to market and induce people to pay for their addictive products, be it alcohol, tobacco or gambling?

What is the benefit to society, other than profit for the corporation?

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Originally Posted by MDawg

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Originally Posted by MisterV

Money talks, B.S. walks.

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Quit your incessant soft whine and go for the MDawg Challenge

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by MisterV

Which leads to a question about "morality:" Should we Americans continue to allow corporations to market and induce people to pay for their addictive products, be it alcohol, tobacco or gambling?

What is the benefit to society, other than profit for the corporation?

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Well Prohibition worked out well didn’t it?

So did the war on drugs?

I thought you were a Libertarian?

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

I thought you were a Libertarian?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by MisterV

I don't pay much attention to what the Libertarian platform provides, I mainly vote that way to be contrarian, to discharge my "civic duty" of voting so that I can later bitch and whine about things with a clear conscience.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MisterV

Which leads to a question about "morality:" Should we Americans continue to allow corporations to market and induce people to pay for their addictive products, be it alcohol, tobacco or gambling?

What is the benefit to society, other than profit for the corporation?

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Well Prohibition worked out well didn’t it?

So did the war on drugs?

I thought you were a Libertarian?

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My beliefs aren't the issue, the issue is morality, which we judge individually.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MisterV

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MisterV

Which leads to a question about "morality:" Should we Americans continue to allow corporations to market and induce people to pay for their addictive products, be it alcohol, tobacco or gambling?

What is the benefit to society, other than profit for the corporation?

---

Well Prohibition worked out well didn’t it?

So did the war on drugs?

I thought you were a Libertarian?

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My beliefs aren't the issue, the issue is morality, which we judge individually.

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It would be a perfect world if everyone worried about their own morality instead of trying to police the morality of what third parties do.