Affects Of The New Gambling Tax Law

Redietz wrote:

"But I appreciate all of the alleged "APs" deciding, after blackjack has dried up, video poker has dried up, tax laws make both tournament poker and video poker money pits, that "APs" are now sports betting experts. Munchkin no longer plays blackjack in LV (which kewlJ seems to not mention much). Dancer plans to retire end-of-year due to tax laws. So now multi-accounting bonus-whoring sports is the ticket. Well, once upon a time, it may have been, but it won't be tomorrow. Sports books have cleaned up their legal language and are within their rights to seize your money if you do this stuff. Check Munchkin's videos for the latest."

Here's a link to an article by NPR on the new law:

https://www.npr.org/2025/07/25/g-s1-...trump-congress

Redietz has said he knows the "secret reason" this law was passed but won't divulge it. Well, I also know the, ahem, secret reason. The Senate Finance Committee, headed by Mike Crapo of Idaho, ignorantly thought it would raise about 1 billion dollars of tax revenue over the next ten years.

What nitwit, Crapo, doesn't know is professional gamblers ain't dumb enough to dump a billion dollars to him. They simply will not put their money into action where the edge is thin enough for them to fall into the tax trap set by Crapo and his idiots.

So the law will have the opposite effect of what they desired. Tax revenue coming from gamblers is actually going to go down. Way down. The Senate Finance Committee shot themselves in the foot.

I predict high stakes live poker tournaments will crash and burn. Tournament players will go back to offshore online tournaments. Guys like Negreanu will play online from Toronto. Plenty of spots around the world for professional tournament players to take up residence.

Poker cash game players in the United States will be little affected.

The edge in sports betting is thin enough to knock a lot of guys out of action.

Advantage video poker died 15 years ago. Yeah, there were a few hard headed stragglers but the real money is in other areas of machine play.

Slot AP's are little affected because they can move away from the thinner edges. With a session defined as 1 day the logbook stats can look something like this.

Total of winning sessions: 170K
Total of losing sessions: 15K
Net Earn: 155K

With the new law only 13.5K in losses can be deducted. So one would owe tax on 156.5K compared to 155K before. Like I said, little affect on slot AP's.

Can a session be defined as 1 day? Yes, it can, because the IRS has never ruled against it. And if they ever rule against it then a court challenge will develop.

KJ will have to tell us about the affects on blackjack play.

Dancer is quitting because of thin-edged vp? Not like him. You'd expect he'd move on to advantage slots. Maybe not tho because hes now in his 80's.

Although I'm not a slot player, I do keep an eye on some of the slots I've learned are of the "advantage slots" moniker. They seem plentiful compared to the very few vp opportunities still available (with benefits included). At Atlantis and Peppermill, the Bay Area Dragon Ladies run teams through the Reno casinos and they focus on advantage slots. See them all the time, and mgmt. is completely blind to all of it. I'll be at Atlantis a few nights next week on our way to Wyoming to pick up our new puppy, and I expect to see the same old song there regarding the teams. But Im now Black Diamond and they treat us like royalty, even though I mugged the hell out of them and Manarch Black Hawk this summer.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Dancer is quitting because of thin-edged vp? Not like him. You'd expect he'd move on to advantage slots. Maybe not tho because hes now in his 80's.

Although I'm not a slot player, I do keep an eye on some of the slots I've learned are of the "advantage slots" moniker. They seem plentiful compared to the very few vp opportunities still available (with benefits included). At Atlantis and Peppermill, the Bay Area Dragon Ladies run teams through the Reno casinos and they focus on advantage slots. See them all the time, and mgmt. is completely blind to all of it. I'll be at Atlantis a few nights next week on our way to Wyoming to pick up our new puppy, and I expect to see the same old song there regarding the teams. But Im now Black Diamond and they treat us like royalty, even though I mugged the hell out of them and Manarch Black Hawk this summer.

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Dancer has been playing advantage slots for the better part of the last two years. He has been mowing up and down the strip playing them. I actually discussed this with Munchkin more than a year ago.

Dancer is retiring at the end of the year unless the tax laws change. And he's made it very clear, if you read his blog, it's specifically because of the tax laws changing.

So either mickey has some insights Dancer does not, or Dancer has some judgement mickey does not. Pick your slot and tax expert.

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how could the IRS possibly know what the true experience of most winning gamblers really has been over the course of year - ?

totally impossible imo

the only way they could know anything at all is if a W2-G is generated because of a win of a certain size and only on certain types of gambling

what about all of the tens of thousands of other scores of which there is no record - ?

who is going to believe that most winning gamblers are truthful in their reporting to the IRS - ?

I would surmise that it's only a very small % who really are truthful


from google:


"AI Overview


No, casinos generally do not issue Form W2-G for blackjack winnings, regardless of the amount. W2-Gs are typically reserved for games with higher payout ratios and winnings that exceed specific thresholds, such as slot machines, keno, and poker tournaments.

Key information regarding blackjack winnings and taxes

W2-G exemption: Live casino table games, including blackjack, craps, roulette, and baccarat, are exempt from the W2-G reporting requirement. This means the casino will not automatically report your winnings to the IRS."

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Starting January 1, 2026, the IRS will limit the deduction of gambling losses to 90% of winnings.

So will the result be that we pretty much ALL will have to pay tax?

Say I won 100K but lost 130K; currently I'd owe nothing, but under the BBB would I be taxed on a phantom 10K?

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Originally Posted by Half Smoke

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how could the IRS possibly know what the true experience of most winning gamblers really has been over the course of year - ?

totally impossible imo

the only way they could know anything at all is if a W2-G is generated because of a win of a certain size and only on certain types of gambling

what about all of the tens of thousands of other scores of which there is no record - ?

who is going to believe that most winning gamblers are truthful in their reporting to the IRS - ?

I would surmise that it's only a very small % who really are truthful


from google:


"AI Overview


No, casinos generally do not issue Form W2-G for blackjack winnings, regardless of the amount. W2-Gs are typically reserved for games with higher payout ratios and winnings that exceed specific thresholds, such as slot machines, keno, and poker tournaments.

Key information regarding blackjack winnings and taxes

W2-G exemption: Live casino table games, including blackjack, craps, roulette, and baccarat, are exempt from the W2-G reporting requirement. This means the casino will not automatically report your winnings to the IRS."

.

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They can't.

Assuming you care to pay taxes on your real net income you would just add ten percent to your declared losses, and nothing in your spending or cash deposits would contradict this.

As far as I can see you should not have problems even in an audit, because you can just not keep gambling logs. If they attempt to reconstruct your income based on your spending and deposits it should be consistent with your actual net income.

And this is assuming you ever get audited which should be extremely rare these days for the amounts of income most professional gamblers might be making.

Anyone with better info feel free to correct me.



Also not that I expect redietz' to be capable of clarifying the point but I don't see why this is any more or less relevant to other forms of AP than it is to sports bettors. Touts of course should not be affected as that is not a form of gambling.

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Originally Posted by MisterV

Starting January 1, 2026, the IRS will limit the deduction of gambling losses to 90% of winnings.

So will the result be that we pretty much ALL will have to pay tax?

Say I won 100K but lost 130K; currently I'd owe nothing, but under the BBB would I be taxed on a phantom 10K?

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You have misstated it (or I am misremembering). The change is that you can now deduct only 90% of losses against wins. So you don't have the phantom income if your losing sessions exceed your winning sessions by more than 10%.

The phantom income problem sure sounds legally suspect to me but it actually should not affect the vast majority of recreational gamblers, even assuming they are scrupulously reporting.

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

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Originally Posted by Half Smoke

.
how could the IRS possibly know what the true experience of most winning gamblers really has been over the course of year - ?

totally impossible imo

the only way they could know anything at all is if a W2-G is generated because of a win of a certain size and only on certain types of gambling

what about all of the tens of thousands of other scores of which there is no record - ?

who is going to believe that most winning gamblers are truthful in their reporting to the IRS - ?

I would surmise that it's only a very small % who really are truthful


from google:


"AI Overview


No, casinos generally do not issue Form W2-G for blackjack winnings, regardless of the amount. W2-Gs are typically reserved for games with higher payout ratios and winnings that exceed specific thresholds, such as slot machines, keno, and poker tournaments.

Key information regarding blackjack winnings and taxes

W2-G exemption: Live casino table games, including blackjack, craps, roulette, and baccarat, are exempt from the W2-G reporting requirement. This means the casino will not automatically report your winnings to the IRS."

.

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They can't.

Assuming you care to pay taxes on your real net income you would just add ten percent to your losses, and nothing in your spending or cash deposits would contradict this.

As far as I can see you should not have problems even in an audit, because you can just not keep gambling logs. If they attempt to reconstruct your income based on your spending and deposits it should be consistent with your actual net income.

And this is assuming you ever get audited which should be extremely rare these days for the amounts of income most professional gamblers might be making.

Anyone with better info feel free to correct me.



Also not that I expect redietz' to be capable of clarifying the point but I don't see why this is any more or less relevant to other forms of AP than it is to sports bettors. Touts of course should not be affected as that is not a form of gambling.

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Well, smurger, the answer to your question is really very obvious, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and figure you, as most here do, typed before rubbing a couple neurons together. Let's see how many seconds it takes for the obvious to occur to you.

And just so I can put a cherry on top, I already explained this in a previous post. To paraphrase the Geico caveman ads, it's so obvious even a VCT "AP" can figure it out.

In other words, are you guys really this dumb, or do you just pretend to be low IQ?

This retard honestly thinks he's sharp.

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Originally Posted by jdaewoo

This retard honestly thinks he's sharp.

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No, because he's too smart to use the word sharp.

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Originally Posted by redietz

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

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Originally Posted by Half Smoke

.
how could the IRS possibly know what the true experience of most winning gamblers really has been over the course of year - ?

totally impossible imo

the only way they could know anything at all is if a W2-G is generated because of a win of a certain size and only on certain types of gambling

what about all of the tens of thousands of other scores of which there is no record - ?

who is going to believe that most winning gamblers are truthful in their reporting to the IRS - ?

I would surmise that it's only a very small % who really are truthful


from google:


"AI Overview


No, casinos generally do not issue Form W2-G for blackjack winnings, regardless of the amount. W2-Gs are typically reserved for games with higher payout ratios and winnings that exceed specific thresholds, such as slot machines, keno, and poker tournaments.

Key information regarding blackjack winnings and taxes

W2-G exemption: Live casino table games, including blackjack, craps, roulette, and baccarat, are exempt from the W2-G reporting requirement. This means the casino will not automatically report your winnings to the IRS."

.

---

They can't.

Assuming you care to pay taxes on your real net income you would just add ten percent to your losses, and nothing in your spending or cash deposits would contradict this.

As far as I can see you should not have problems even in an audit, because you can just not keep gambling logs. If they attempt to reconstruct your income based on your spending and deposits it should be consistent with your actual net income.

And this is assuming you ever get audited which should be extremely rare these days for the amounts of income most professional gamblers might be making.

Anyone with better info feel free to correct me.



Also not that I expect redietz' to be capable of clarifying the point but I don't see why this is any more or less relevant to other forms of AP than it is to sports bettors. Touts of course should not be affected as that is not a form of gambling.

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Well, smurger, the answer to your question is really very obvious, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and figure you, as most here do, typed before rubbing a couple neurons together. Let's see how many seconds it takes for the obvious to occur to you.

And just so I can put a cherry on top, I already explained this in a previous post. To paraphrase the Geico caveman ads, it's so obvious even a VCT "AP" can figure it out.

In other words, are you guys really this dumb, or do you just pretend to be low IQ?

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Well I know exactly what you are referring to, but the counterpoint to your argument is so obvious that if it were a snake it would have jumped up and bit you.

Do you see it yet?

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

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Originally Posted by redietz

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

They can't.

Assuming you care to pay taxes on your real net income you would just add ten percent to your losses, and nothing in your spending or cash deposits would contradict this.

As far as I can see you should not have problems even in an audit, because you can just not keep gambling logs. If they attempt to reconstruct your income based on your spending and deposits it should be consistent with your actual net income.

And this is assuming you ever get audited which should be extremely rare these days for the amounts of income most professional gamblers might be making.

Anyone with better info feel free to correct me.



Also not that I expect redietz' to be capable of clarifying the point but I don't see why this is any more or less relevant to other forms of AP than it is to sports bettors. Touts of course should not be affected as that is not a form of gambling.

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Well, smurger, the answer to your question is really very obvious, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and figure you, as most here do, typed before rubbing a couple neurons together. Let's see how many seconds it takes for the obvious to occur to you.

And just so I can put a cherry on top, I already explained this in a previous post. To paraphrase the Geico caveman ads, it's so obvious even a VCT "AP" can figure it out.

In other words, are you guys really this dumb, or do you just pretend to be low IQ?

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Well I know exactly what you are referring to, but the counterpoint to your argument is so obvious that if it were a snake it would have jumped up and bit you.

Do you see it yet?

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Took me a bit to see it but no way Redietz sees it.

This gambling tax will send some of you sold into the sex trafficking rings. Ironically probably going to be you know who you know the what fuck nuts?

Offshore should boom.

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Originally Posted by redietz

Dancer is retiring at the end of the year unless the tax laws change. And he's made it very clear, if you read his blog, it's specifically because of the tax laws changing. So either mickey has some insights Dancer does not, or Dancer has some judgement mickey does not. Pick your slot and tax expert.

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if you read his blog you would know that Dancer is pretty frail these days. He’s recently written about times he used both power chairs and walkers. He’s also mentioned that it takes a lot of walking to work the advantage slots. Thats something I know a lot about.

The exploitable machines are spread out in the casinos. And just because you make it to a machine doesn’t mean you will get a play. There is a lot of zig zagging around involved, and trips to the restrooms. A young healthy slot hustler making a few laps a day around the advantage machines mid-strip will probably walk 15 miles a day. So how well can a 78 year old man do it?

I just returned from 8 days spent mid strip, 4 days south strip, 4 days downtown, 2 days Laughlin so I’ve seen the territory he works. And I seen the competition he faces from younger slot hustlers. I enjoyed the trip, and I will return. But not for the money. There are better spots for me in this country than the strip. If Bob quits video poker its because his edge is to thin to overcome the new tax law. If he quits advantage slots its because its to much work for him/he’s out competed.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by redietz

Dancer is retiring at the end of the year unless the tax laws change. And he's made it very clear, if you read his blog, it's specifically because of the tax laws changing. So either mickey has some insights Dancer does not, or Dancer has some judgement mickey does not. Pick your slot and tax expert.

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if you read his blog you would know that Dancer is pretty frail these days. He’s recently written about times he used both power chairs and walkers. He’s also mentioned that it takes a lot of walking to work the advantage slots. Thats something I know a lot about.

The exploitable machines are spread out in the casinos. And just because you make it to a machine doesn’t mean you will get a play. There is a lot of zig zagging around involved, and trips to the restrooms. A young healthy slot hustler making a few laps a day around the advantage machines mid-strip will probably walk 15 miles a day. So how well can a 78 year old man do it?

I just returned from 8 days spent mid strip, 4 days south strip, 4 days downtown, 2 days Laughlin so I’ve seen the territory he works. And I seen the competition he faces from younger slot hustlers. I enjoyed the trip, and I will return. But not for the money. There are better spots for me in this country than the strip. If Bob quits video poker its because his edge is to thin to overcome the new tax law. If he quits advantage slots its because its to much work for him/he’s out competed.

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Well, as of a year ago, he was definitely not "frail," whatever that means. He was actually pounding the strip pavement. Now granted, doing that when it's 105 is probably too taxing in the long run for someone his (and your and my) age, but I would not describe him as "frail." If he's "frail," you and I are decrepit.

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Originally Posted by redietz

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by redietz

Dancer is retiring at the end of the year unless the tax laws change. And he's made it very clear, if you read his blog, it's specifically because of the tax laws changing. So either mickey has some insights Dancer does not, or Dancer has some judgement mickey does not. Pick your slot and tax expert.

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if you read his blog you would know that Dancer is pretty frail these days. He’s recently written about times he used both power chairs and walkers. He’s also mentioned that it takes a lot of walking to work the advantage slots. Thats something I know a lot about.

The exploitable machines are spread out in the casinos. And just because you make it to a machine doesn’t mean you will get a play. There is a lot of zig zagging around involved, and trips to the restrooms. A young healthy slot hustler making a few laps a day around the advantage machines mid-strip will probably walk 15 miles a day. So how well can a 78 year old man do it?

I just returned from 8 days spent mid strip, 4 days south strip, 4 days downtown, 2 days Laughlin so I’ve seen the territory he works. And I seen the competition he faces from younger slot hustlers. I enjoyed the trip, and I will return. But not for the money. There are better spots for me in this country than the strip. If Bob quits video poker its because his edge is to thin to overcome the new tax law. If he quits advantage slots its because its to much work for him/he’s out competed.

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Well, as of a year ago, he was definitely not "frail," whatever that means. He was actually pounding the strip pavement. Now granted, doing that when it's 105 is probably too taxing in the long run for someone his (and your and my) age, but I would not describe him as "frail." If he's "frail," you and I are decrepit.

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You must not have read about him and Bonnie sharing a power chair at Cherokee. He also has written about using a walker. So do you really think he can speed walk the casinos like the young hustlers do? With a walker?

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by redietz

Dancer is retiring at the end of the year unless the tax laws change. And he's made it very clear, if you read his blog, it's specifically because of the tax laws changing. So either mickey has some insights Dancer does not, or Dancer has some judgement mickey does not. Pick your slot and tax expert.

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if you read his blog you would know that Dancer is pretty frail these days. He’s recently written about times he used both power chairs and walkers. He’s also mentioned that it takes a lot of walking to work the advantage slots. Thats something I know a lot about.

The exploitable machines are spread out in the casinos. And just because you make it to a machine doesn’t mean you will get a play. There is a lot of zig zagging around involved, and trips to the restrooms. A young healthy slot hustler making a few laps a day around the advantage machines mid-strip will probably walk 15 miles a day. So how well can a 78 year old man do it?

I just returned from 8 days spent mid strip, 4 days south strip, 4 days downtown, 2 days Laughlin so I’ve seen the territory he works. And I seen the competition he faces from younger slot hustlers. I enjoyed the trip, and I will return. But not for the money. There are better spots for me in this country than the strip. If Bob quits video poker its because his edge is to thin to overcome the new tax law. If he quits advantage slots its because its to much work for him/he’s out competed.

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I know you can't read this but you're single and it isn't the money then why return to the strip? Just cheap rooms? I despise staying on the strip. The relentless nickel and diming wears on me even though rooms are cheap.

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by redietz

Dancer is retiring at the end of the year unless the tax laws change. And he's made it very clear, if you read his blog, it's specifically because of the tax laws changing. So either mickey has some insights Dancer does not, or Dancer has some judgement mickey does not. Pick your slot and tax expert.

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if you read his blog you would know that Dancer is pretty frail these days. He’s recently written about times he used both power chairs and walkers. He’s also mentioned that it takes a lot of walking to work the advantage slots. Thats something I know a lot about.

The exploitable machines are spread out in the casinos. And just because you make it to a machine doesn’t mean you will get a play. There is a lot of zig zagging around involved, and trips to the restrooms. A young healthy slot hustler making a few laps a day around the advantage machines mid-strip will probably walk 15 miles a day. So how well can a 78 year old man do it?

I just returned from 8 days spent mid strip, 4 days south strip, 4 days downtown, 2 days Laughlin so I’ve seen the territory he works. And I seen the competition he faces from younger slot hustlers. I enjoyed the trip, and I will return. But not for the money. There are better spots for me in this country than the strip. If Bob quits video poker its because his edge is to thin to overcome the new tax law. If he quits advantage slots its because its to much work for him/he’s out competed.

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I know you can't read this but you're single and it isn't the money then why return to the strip? Just cheap rooms? I despise staying on the strip. The relentless nickel and diming wears on me even though rooms are cheap.

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I think the appeal for slots players is the variety and the volume of machines.

I agree with you though. The nickel & diming, the endless walks from casino to casino, the hassle & the crowds.

But I can see how it would appeal to other people with the excitement & the variety especially if you are mainly working in rural areas.

Not to mention the view of all the lovely ladies. Or I guess depending on some people's tastes the dudes.

It appealed to me for a long time too, but I’m too old now to care lol.

Funny, I hadn't seen this thread started by Mickey at 6:30am yesterday, and I started my own thread on X about 3 hours ago:

https://x.com/ToddWitteles/status/1977258379686076913



Anyway, I completely disagree with Mickey. The pro gambling/poker/sportsbetting world as we know it isn't going to end on 1/1/26.

There are many reasons for this:

1) APs are actually the least susceptible to this, as their wins/losses are self-reported. Casino records on APs are meaningless, since APs often use multiple cards or no card at all. Even when they do use their own cards, they will often pull shenanigans to falsely generate losses. None of this is illegal, either (though some Indian tribes may treat it that way!) Anyway, I can guarantee you that almost every AP fudges their wins for tax reasons, knowing that no records exist to counter them. When I suggested this a few months ago on X, some APs got very mad at me, clutching their pearls and insisting they are honest as Abe Lincoln when it comes to taxes. All I can say is bullshit. People who deceive casinos for a living are not likely to be salt-of-the-earth honest when it comes to their taxes. Therefore, they just need to fudge an additional 11% (which is easy) in order to negate this new law.

2) Poker cash game players also self-report their numbers, and similar to what I stated about APs above, they can just fudge an additional 11% to negate this. I personally know a ton of poker cash players who have admitted to me that they do not accurately report their wins to the IRS. (Obviously I'm not naming them!)

3) Poker tournament players could have an issue, as all of their live tournaments create a paper trail regarding their results. However, if these tournament players play cash games or gamble on other things, they can do that same 11% fudging. My guess is that some will do this fudging, and some won't. However, note that this only affects poker tournament players who itemize their taxes and either lose less than 11% for the year, or win.

4) Sportsbettors could have an issue, but only ones who bet exclusively at books which keep records and submit them to the IRS. Most pro sportsbettors have offshore books which they can use to fudge numbers if they want.


Note that I am not referring to myself here. I'm talking about what gamblers in each community have done and will do, based upon extensive private conversations I've had with people about the subject over the years.

The bottom line is that most people either won't be affected, or will fudge numbers in order to negate the tax increase. The few who are affected and either can't or won't fudge numbers will just end up paying higher taxes. However, this will not decimate any of the gambling communities.

You'll see... a year from now, everything will be similar to today, despite this new law.

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Originally Posted by accountinquestion

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by redietz

Dancer is retiring at the end of the year unless the tax laws change. And he's made it very clear, if you read his blog, it's specifically because of the tax laws changing. So either mickey has some insights Dancer does not, or Dancer has some judgement mickey does not. Pick your slot and tax expert.

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if you read his blog you would know that Dancer is pretty frail these days. He’s recently written about times he used both power chairs and walkers. He’s also mentioned that it takes a lot of walking to work the advantage slots. Thats something I know a lot about.

The exploitable machines are spread out in the casinos. And just because you make it to a machine doesn’t mean you will get a play. There is a lot of zig zagging around involved, and trips to the restrooms. A young healthy slot hustler making a few laps a day around the advantage machines mid-strip will probably walk 15 miles a day. So how well can a 78 year old man do it?

I just returned from 8 days spent mid strip, 4 days south strip, 4 days downtown, 2 days Laughlin so I’ve seen the territory he works. And I seen the competition he faces from younger slot hustlers. I enjoyed the trip, and I will return. But not for the money. There are better spots for me in this country than the strip. If Bob quits video poker its because his edge is to thin to overcome the new tax law. If he quits advantage slots its because its to much work for him/he’s out competed.

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I know you can't read this but you're single ...

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MickeyCrimm 101 in a nutshell to a T. Driving forever along some country road taking pictures for others to watch. Never even a girlfriend, but, still shutting out the world. Can't bear to read a few contrary internet gambling message board posts from a few strangers. A tighter grip on the plow handle of life than even MrV's ass on a piece of shit. Ha.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t28Cd9Qc6Q


Go to 2:23:34 to hear my long segment on this whole thing. Recorded in July but still applies today.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by redietz

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

if you read his blog you would know that Dancer is pretty frail these days. He’s recently written about times he used both power chairs and walkers. He’s also mentioned that it takes a lot of walking to work the advantage slots. Thats something I know a lot about.

The exploitable machines are spread out in the casinos. And just because you make it to a machine doesn’t mean you will get a play. There is a lot of zig zagging around involved, and trips to the restrooms. A young healthy slot hustler making a few laps a day around the advantage machines mid-strip will probably walk 15 miles a day. So how well can a 78 year old man do it?

I just returned from 8 days spent mid strip, 4 days south strip, 4 days downtown, 2 days Laughlin so I’ve seen the territory he works. And I seen the competition he faces from younger slot hustlers. I enjoyed the trip, and I will return. But not for the money. There are better spots for me in this country than the strip. If Bob quits video poker its because his edge is to thin to overcome the new tax law. If he quits advantage slots its because its to much work for him/he’s out competed.

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Well, as of a year ago, he was definitely not "frail," whatever that means. He was actually pounding the strip pavement. Now granted, doing that when it's 105 is probably too taxing in the long run for someone his (and your and my) age, but I would not describe him as "frail." If he's "frail," you and I are decrepit.

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You must not have read about him and Bonnie sharing a power chair at Cherokee. He also has written about using a walker. So do you really think he can speed walk the casinos like the young hustlers do? With a walker?

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Wasn't aware of their need for assisted walking. Everyone's body eventually wears down. How soon that comes depends on how much the person cares. More proof professional gambling is mainly a younger man's game.

Two actions that are the key to staying in shape as we age which most, for some reason, cannot or will not do: move more and eat less.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by redietz

Well, as of a year ago, he was definitely not "frail," whatever that means. He was actually pounding the strip pavement. Now granted, doing that when it's 105 is probably too taxing in the long run for someone his (and your and my) age, but I would not describe him as "frail." If he's "frail," you and I are decrepit.

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You must not have read about him and Bonnie sharing a power chair at Cherokee. He also has written about using a walker. So do you really think he can speed walk the casinos like the young hustlers do? With a walker?

---

Wasn't aware of their need for assisted walking. Everyone's body eventually wears down. How soon that comes depends on how much the person cares. More proof professional gambling is mainly a younger man's game.

Two actions that are the key to staying in shape as we age which most, for some reason, cannot or will not do: move more and eat less.

---

I read everything about the chair and all that. And as of a year ago, he was up-and-down the strip without one.

I find it fascinating that mickey is going to argue with me, instead of Dancer, about why Dancer says he'll retire at the end of the year. Dancer has stated it clearly and unequivocally a dozen times on his blog, and pretty much in every other post. He is retiring because of the tax laws. Not because he's limited in mobility. Not because he's worn out.

Because of the tax laws.

But mickey is going to sit here and type something different because mickey, being omniscient, knows better than Dancer why Dancer is retiring.

Everyone -- just go to LVA and read the damned Dancer blogs yourselves.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redietz

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

You must not have read about him and Bonnie sharing a power chair at Cherokee. He also has written about using a walker. So do you really think he can speed walk the casinos like the young hustlers do? With a walker?

---

Wasn't aware of their need for assisted walking. Everyone's body eventually wears down. How soon that comes depends on how much the person cares. More proof professional gambling is mainly a younger man's game.

Two actions that are the key to staying in shape as we age which most, for some reason, cannot or will not do: move more and eat less.

---

I read everything about the chair and all that. And as of a year ago, he was up-and-down the strip without one.

I find it fascinating that mickey is going to argue with me, instead of Dancer, about why Dancer says he'll retire at the end of the year. Dancer has stated it clearly and unequivocally a dozen times on his blog, and pretty much in every other post. He is retiring because of the tax laws. Not because he's limited in mobility. Not because he's worn out.

Because of the tax laws.

But mickey is going to sit here and type something different because mickey, being omniscient, knows better than Dancer why Dancer is retiring.

Everyone -- just go to LVA and read the damned Dancer blogs yourselves.

---

I know the logistics of working advantage slots. You don’t know jackshit about it. With video poker you get to sit on your ass in one spot. Not so with slot AP and there is a ton of competition from other slot AP’s for the plays. Other much younger and faster AP’s.

“Up and down the strip” is not to bright on your part. Guess what you are doing when you are out there walking. You are doing everything but playing a machine. You dont make money by walking up and down the strip. You work the strip in sections. Mid strip is pretty easy compared to south strip. And all those properties are owned by CZR so my guess is thats the area Bob worked slot AP.

But I can tell you this much. Slot AP’s are pretty much middle to upper middle class. I know the slot AP average income math. It looks something like winning days total 150K, losing days total 20K. So instead of writing off 20K you will only be able to write off 18K. That’s not going to stop slot AP’s, ditz. The tax bill just ain’t that much higher.

I should qualify the above math. Its for slot AP’s that dont work thin edge.

Another thing I know from experience. If you think a 78 year old man can go from wheelchair/walker to “pounding the strip” you’re an idiot.

PS I’ve read every Dancer blog for the past 30 years.

It was Dancer’s July 29 blog where he announced he would retire. Redietz, I guess you didn’t see the not so correct information Dancer gave in that blog on how the new law worked. Did it go over your head? I can’t believe a person of your knowledge, experience and intelligence missed it. Its just sitting there big as day. It jumped right out at me. But not you?

I’ll give you some time to go back over it and report back here what you find. Rub a few neurons together.

Red, there's no way Dancer retires because of a new/different tax law. His having been a successful professional gambler for many years automatically says he knows how to do workarounds where necessary, manipulate certain aspects of his IRS filings, and how to take maximum advantage wherever required in order to maximize net profit. Having had 10 years of doing these things myself, I consider myself an expert at doing them. I strongly suspect he is on a level above that.

This retard has never had a winning year.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Red, there's no way Dancer retires because of a new/different tax law. His having been a successful professional gambler for many years automatically says he knows how to do workarounds where necessary, manipulate certain aspects of his IRS filings, and how to take maximum advantage wherever required in order to maximize net profit. Having had 10 years of doing these things myself, I consider myself an expert at doing them. I strongly suspect he is on a level above that.

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I remember your writing about fully maximizing write offs. I suspect you are better at it than Dancer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Funny, I hadn't seen this thread started by Mickey at 6:30am yesterday, and I started my own thread on X about 3 hours ago:

https://x.com/ToddWitteles/status/1977258379686076913



Anyway, I completely disagree with Mickey. The pro gambling/poker/sportsbetting world as we know it isn't going to end on 1/1/26.

There are many reasons for this:

1) APs are actually the least susceptible to this, as their wins/losses are self-reported. Casino records on APs are meaningless, since APs often use multiple cards or no card at all. Even when they do use their own cards, they will often pull shenanigans to falsely generate losses. None of this is illegal, either (though some Indian tribes may treat it that way!) Anyway, I can guarantee you that almost every AP fudges their wins for tax reasons, knowing that no records exist to counter them. When I suggested this a few months ago on X, some APs got very mad at me, clutching their pearls and insisting they are honest as Abe Lincoln when it comes to taxes. All I can say is bullshit. People who deceive casinos for a living are not likely to be salt-of-the-earth honest when it comes to their taxes. Therefore, they just need to fudge an additional 11% (which is easy) in order to negate this new law.

2) Poker cash game players also self-report their numbers, and similar to what I stated about APs above, they can just fudge an additional 11% to negate this. I personally know a ton of poker cash players who have admitted to me that they do not accurately report their wins to the IRS. (Obviously I'm not naming them!)

3) Poker tournament players could have an issue, as all of their live tournaments create a paper trail regarding their results. However, if these tournament players play cash games or gamble on other things, they can do that same 11% fudging. My guess is that some will do this fudging, and some won't. However, note that this only affects poker tournament players who itemize their taxes and either lose less than 11% for the year, or win.

4) Sportsbettors could have an issue, but only ones who bet exclusively at books which keep records and submit them to the IRS. Most pro sportsbettors have offshore books which they can use to fudge numbers if they want.


Note that I am not referring to myself here. I'm talking about what gamblers in each community have done and will do, based upon extensive private conversations I've had with people about the subject over the years.

The bottom line is that most people either won't be affected, or will fudge numbers in order to negate the tax increase. The few who are affected and either can't or won't fudge numbers will just end up paying higher taxes. However, this will not decimate any of the gambling communities.

You'll see... a year from now, everything will be similar to today, despite this new law.

---

What you wrote here is not in disagreement with me. Its pretty much the same as I wrote. The new law is pretty much a nothing burger for those whose wins/losses aren’t being recorded. But there are some individuals around that think its a conspiracy by casino execs to get rid of pros.

Dancer just wrote in his Oct 7 blog that he thinks action in high limit slot rooms will dry up. But I think he wrote some inaccurate things about the tax law. I’ll run it by you guys and see what you think.

Starting 1/1/26 the new $2000 min for slot w2g's begins (oddly, adjusted for inflation each year after). That will help many recreational gamblers -- and pros who play low to mid level denominations. I know I accumulated about $40k in these type of signers ($1200-$1999) this summer and those won't continue to be issued when I start up again next summer.

Still, with the new "90% law" it won't be very difficult to mitigate any tax increase because of it. If anyone thinks it is....you don't belong in a gambling environment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Red, there's no way Dancer retires because of a new/different tax law. His having been a successful professional gambler for many years automatically says he knows how to do workarounds where necessary, manipulate certain aspects of his IRS filings, and how to take maximum advantage wherever required in order to maximize net profit. Having had 10 years of doing these things myself, I consider myself an expert at doing them. I strongly suspect he is on a level above that.

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Correct.

If Dancer is retiring, it's just because he's old. He's 78 now.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Funny, I hadn't seen this thread started by Mickey at 6:30am yesterday, and I started my own thread on X about 3 hours ago:

https://x.com/ToddWitteles/status/1977258379686076913



Anyway, I completely disagree with Mickey. The pro gambling/poker/sportsbetting world as we know it isn't going to end on 1/1/26.

There are many reasons for this:

1) APs are actually the least susceptible to this, as their wins/losses are self-reported. Casino records on APs are meaningless, since APs often use multiple cards or no card at all. Even when they do use their own cards, they will often pull shenanigans to falsely generate losses. None of this is illegal, either (though some Indian tribes may treat it that way!) Anyway, I can guarantee you that almost every AP fudges their wins for tax reasons, knowing that no records exist to counter them. When I suggested this a few months ago on X, some APs got very mad at me, clutching their pearls and insisting they are honest as Abe Lincoln when it comes to taxes. All I can say is bullshit. People who deceive casinos for a living are not likely to be salt-of-the-earth honest when it comes to their taxes. Therefore, they just need to fudge an additional 11% (which is easy) in order to negate this new law.

2) Poker cash game players also self-report their numbers, and similar to what I stated about APs above, they can just fudge an additional 11% to negate this. I personally know a ton of poker cash players who have admitted to me that they do not accurately report their wins to the IRS. (Obviously I'm not naming them!)

3) Poker tournament players could have an issue, as all of their live tournaments create a paper trail regarding their results. However, if these tournament players play cash games or gamble on other things, they can do that same 11% fudging. My guess is that some will do this fudging, and some won't. However, note that this only affects poker tournament players who itemize their taxes and either lose less than 11% for the year, or win.

4) Sportsbettors could have an issue, but only ones who bet exclusively at books which keep records and submit them to the IRS. Most pro sportsbettors have offshore books which they can use to fudge numbers if they want.


Note that I am not referring to myself here. I'm talking about what gamblers in each community have done and will do, based upon extensive private conversations I've had with people about the subject over the years.

The bottom line is that most people either won't be affected, or will fudge numbers in order to negate the tax increase. The few who are affected and either can't or won't fudge numbers will just end up paying higher taxes. However, this will not decimate any of the gambling communities.

You'll see... a year from now, everything will be similar to today, despite this new law.

---

What you wrote here is not in disagreement with me. Its pretty much the same as I wrote. The new law is pretty much a nothing burger for those whose wins/losses aren’t being recorded. But there are some individuals around that think its a conspiracy by casino execs to get rid of pros.

Dancer just wrote in his Oct 7 blog that he thinks action in high limit slot rooms will dry up. But I think he wrote some inaccurate things about the tax law. I’ll run it by you guys and see what you think.

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High limit slot rooms are not going to dry up. Most people there aren't APs. The vast majority in there lose far more than 11% total when you add up their session wins and losses, which means they don't pay any tax under the new law.

I can't read Dancer's column because he wants $3 for it, and there ain't no way I'm paying that.

A couple of views. First from a professional poker player:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAIyRqzdkwg&t=736s


Next, the inestimable Fezzik chimes in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8Tookd66PI



I don't claim to be a tax expert, so I defer to them on this. However, me personally, I have very little exposure to any of these issues.


And finally, I would pay $30 a crack to read Dancer's column. Would not hesitate.

Here's an excerpt from Dancer's blog dated July 29, 2025:

"For those unaware of how punitive this new law is for professional gamblers, consider two recent years of mine. In both years my W-2Gs added up to about $6 million. I’m playing high denominations games with a small edge. In one year, my gambling score was -$150,000 and in the other, +$200,000. I have non-gambling income as well. I also record my gambling expenses, which I’m entitled to do as I file as a professional gambler.

In the first year, since I lost money gambling, I paid no taxes on the gambling part of my income. In the second year, I paid quite a bit. Nobody likes to pay taxes, certainly including me, but it’s the price we pay to live in this country.

Under the new law, I would only be able to deduce $5.4 million in gambling losses in each year. (W-2Gs are considered proven gambling wins by the IRS and you can deduct up to 90% of them as losses.) That means in both years (one I lost $150,000 and the other I won $200,000), I would owe taxes on $600,000 of phantom income, in addition to the taxes on my other income. Minus 90% of my gambling expenses, of course, but those came nowhere near $600,000.)"
________________________________________

I think Bob has made a wrong assumption here. What do you guys think? The new law states you can write off 90% of your losses against your win. It does not say you should write off 90% of your losses against the total of your W2G's.

Ones net win and the total of their W2G's are two different numbers. For instance, in a session you are stuck 1K then hit a 4K royal and quit the session. You have a W2G in your hand and also your logbook. It's a winning session so you will make an entry in the "winning sessions" column. What number do you write in? You won 3K, not 4K. So 3K is the number that should go in the log book.

People who have higher total w2g amounts than total winning sessions learn to treat w2g results as sessions results because it avoids the hassle of the IRS mistakenly challenging you for underreporting income.

So if your total winning sessions were 200k and your w2gs add up to 250k, and your losing sessions add up to 100k, by IRS rules the correct thing is to report 200k winnings and 100k losses.

But if you do this IME the IRS will send you a letter for underreporting. But if you explain your position you will ultimately win (IME and from what I've heard of others).

So most people will just declare 250k winnings and 150k losses, even if this actually contradicts their session log (assuming they even have one).

But this is actually not relevant to Dancer's argument. His mistake seems to be the statement that he can only deduct up to 90% of winnings.

If you had to treat all w2g income as winning sessions (which you don't under the rules but probably should), and you could only deduct losses up to 90% of winnings (which is incorrect), the you would indeed have the phantom income problem he mentions.

He still has a phantom income problem for both years for a different reason than the one he stated, because he can only deduct 90% of his losses, which in his losing year was not enough to wipe out his winning sessions, and in his winning year makes his notional win a lot bigger than it actually was.

But he could just inflate his losses to offset this (which he couldn't do if he were limited to deducting 90% of wins as he thought he was).

My guess is he just wants to retire. He had already moved away from VP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

People who have higher total w2g amounts than total winning sessions learn to treat w2g results as sessions results because it avoids the hassle of the IRS mistakenly challenging you for underreporting income.

So if your total winning sessions were 200k and your w2gs add up to 250k, and your losing sessions add up to 100k, by IRS rules the correct thing is to report 200k winnings and 100k losses.

But if you do this IME the IRS will send you a letter for underreporting. But if you explain your position you will ultimately win (IME and from what I've heard of others).

So most people will just declare 250k winnings and 150k losses, even if this actually contradicts their session log (assuming they even have one).

But this is actually not relevant to Dancer's argument. His mistake seems to be the statement that he can only deduct up to 90% of winnings.

If you had to treat all w2g income as winning sessions (which you don't under the rules but probably should), and you could only deduct losses up to 90% of winnings (which is incorrect), the you would indeed have the phantom income problem he mentions.

He still has a phantom income problem for both years for a different reason than the one he stated, because he can only deduct 90% of his losses, which in his losing year was not enough to wipe out his winning sessions, and in his winning year makes his notional win a lot bigger than it actually was.

But he could just inflate his losses to offset this (which he couldn't do if he were limited to deducting 90% of wins as he thought he was).

My guess is he just wants to retire. He had already moved away from VP.

---

He moved away from vp because he could no longer win as in the past. This was likely the result of a number of things: (1) vp has tightened to the point it is impossible, (2) the subtraction of vp machines and replacement of them with slots makes it a tougher grind to even get on the occasional profitable opportunity in vp, and (3) the covert advantages he had with idiosyncratic relationships with casinos (such as the possibility of rebates, which is a topic noticeable by its absence in his columns) have been canceled.

From what Munchkin said to me, Dancer's energy and commitment had not really waned with his aging. Munchkin was somewhat in awe of the energy and hours Dancer brought to the endeavor even though he has more money than God (or something to that effect).

So guessing is often just wrong, but if you don't have information, then I can see coming to those conclusions.

Come to think of it, has anyone else actually read the blog where Dancer claims he will retire because of the tax law or are we all just relying on redietz here?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

Come to think of it, has anyone else actually read the blog where Dancer claims he will retire because of the tax law or are we all just relying on redietz here?

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Yes, He announced his retirement in the same July 29 blog that I excerpted here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redietz

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

People who have higher total w2g amounts than total winning sessions learn to treat w2g results as sessions results because it avoids the hassle of the IRS mistakenly challenging you for underreporting income.

So if your total winning sessions were 200k and your w2gs add up to 250k, and your losing sessions add up to 100k, by IRS rules the correct thing is to report 200k winnings and 100k losses.

But if you do this IME the IRS will send you a letter for underreporting. But if you explain your position you will ultimately win (IME and from what I've heard of others).

So most people will just declare 250k winnings and 150k losses, even if this actually contradicts their session log (assuming they even have one).

But this is actually not relevant to Dancer's argument. His mistake seems to be the statement that he can only deduct up to 90% of winnings.

If you had to treat all w2g income as winning sessions (which you don't under the rules but probably should), and you could only deduct losses up to 90% of winnings (which is incorrect), the you would indeed have the phantom income problem he mentions.

He still has a phantom income problem for both years for a different reason than the one he stated, because he can only deduct 90% of his losses, which in his losing year was not enough to wipe out his winning sessions, and in his winning year makes his notional win a lot bigger than it actually was.

But he could just inflate his losses to offset this (which he couldn't do if he were limited to deducting 90% of wins as he thought he was).

My guess is he just wants to retire. He had already moved away from VP.

---

He moved away from vp because he could no longer win as in the past. This was likely the result of a number of things: (1) vp has tightened to the point it is impossible, (2) the subtraction of vp machines and replacement of them with slots makes it a tougher grind to even get on the occasional profitable opportunity in vp, and (3) the covert advantages he had with idiosyncratic relationships with casinos (such as the possibility of rebates, which is a topic noticeable by its absence in his columns) have been canceled.

From what Munchkin said to me, Dancer's energy and commitment had not really waned with his aging. Munchkin was somewhat in awe of the energy and hours Dancer brought to the endeavor even though he has more money than God (or something to that effect).

So guessing is often just wrong, but if you don't have information, then I can see coming to those conclusions.

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Freeplay is a rebate. We all get it.

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Originally Posted by redietz

I find it fascinating that mickey is going to argue with me, instead of Dancer, about why Dancer says he'll retire at the end of the year. Dancer has stated it clearly and unequivocally a dozen times on his blog, and pretty much in every other post. He is retiring because of the tax laws. Not because he's limited in mobility. Not because he's worn out.

Because of the tax laws.

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I haven't posted in this thread because as a table game advantage player, that plays anonymously (as most table game APs do), this has zero effect on me. :rolleyes:

But I will say this: Dietz is wrong as he almost always is here. And what I mean by that is NO AP, playing rated, playing machines, as so many are now doing with slots, is going to retire because of this law. APs figure ways around things like this. And there are several ways around this that I think everyone recognizes and a couple that maybe some don't. Again NO AP is retiring because of this law!! Period. :cool:

I don't follow Bob Dancer. Don't read his blog or anything else. I am sorry to hear that he is having mobility issues. That kind of thing really makes life less fun and pleasurable for anyone. I don't wish that on even the worst KJ haters.

Dancer can say whatever he wants, but if he is retiring, it isn't strictly about this law. He is probably just ready to retire.

For Dietz, a guy who claimed to have spent 100 days a year in Vegas (haven't seen much mention of it this year), he seems to have very little clue about advantage play and advantage players. Of course he is a tout, so I guess no need to. :rolleyes:

Now I will tell you...there is a member of this forum that claims to be a big winning table game player while playing rated, so he gets all the comps. IF his fairytale were true, this would be a problem for him. But since nothing about his story is true, he might just lose a bit more of his family money, getting those overvalued comps.