Quick Hits Platinum 5QH/6QH +EV midrange double meter combos

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Originally Posted by Mission146

Greetings!

I'm sorry I haven't been here for awhile. I should first give a shoutout to MickeyCrimm and say I'm glad to hear he is still with us and still kicking ass!

I just wanted to confirm that I did indeed speak to someone at Bally at the time and that is what I was told. The thing everyone needs to understand is that not every Bally Quick Hits Platinum machine is necessarily set to have the progressives turned on, some of them ONLY have the base jackpots, so the 88.05% return is the lowest possible return setting of that particular model and game title.

We also notice that the Free Games Bonus Feature occurs, invariably, every 96 plays. Further, that the overall hit frequency is unchanged. That is interesting because it would mean that any return change could be done without impacting the overall hit rate at all. If I had to guess, I would think the overall return is changed by way of the Free Games returns by way of the reel strips during Free Games. You could theoretically switch some symbols to other symbols in the main game to lower the return with an unchanged overall hit rate, but that seems unlikely.

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Thanks Mission.

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by Mission146

Greetings!

I'm sorry I haven't been here for awhile. I should first give a shoutout to MickeyCrimm and say I'm glad to hear he is still with us and still kicking ass!

I just wanted to confirm that I did indeed speak to someone at Bally at the time and that is what I was told. The thing everyone needs to understand is that not every Bally Quick Hits Platinum machine is necessarily set to have the progressives turned on, some of them ONLY have the base jackpots, so the 88.05% return is the lowest possible return setting of that particular model and game title.

We also notice that the Free Games Bonus Feature occurs, invariably, every 96 plays. Further, that the overall hit frequency is unchanged. That is interesting because it would mean that any return change could be done without impacting the overall hit rate at all. If I had to guess, I would think the overall return is changed by way of the Free Games returns by way of the reel strips during Free Games. You could theoretically switch some symbols to other symbols in the main game to lower the return with an unchanged overall hit rate, but that seems unlikely.

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Thanks Mission.

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You're welcome!

Another thing that just occurred to me (after reading the thread) is that the different possible return settings (aside from the minimum one) could be after accounting for the progressive meter movement. That's not what the guy at Bally said, but it makes sense that Progressive contribution and different free games reel stripping, individually or together, could result in the different return percentages.

In any event, I usually don't look at Progressive Meter Contribution when I sit down to decide whether or not I want to take a play. I only care where the Progressive(s) is(are) right now. I especially don't consider the Progressive Meter Contribution on the Progressive levels higher than the one I am targeting for something like this (if going for 5QH, then I probably don't care what the contribution of 6QH is and definitely don't care about any higher) because I am not likely to realize those percentages anyway. Really, it's bad enough that (based on base progressive amounts) I am considering 7QH+ as part of the return. The only reason I even factor those into the return is because I'm not going to play one below 105% or so anyway, unless I have some other reason to generate coin-in, so it all comes out in the wash.

I think what we've been referring to as the quasi par sheet gives the figures for the non-progressive game, despite the fact that it uses the word "progressive" one time.

That's why it says things like "Any seven QH symbols pays 100 × total bet", treating the jackpot amounts as fixed rather than progressive. That's also why it makes no mention of meter rates.

The real red flag though is that those RTPs are much too high to merely refer to the base game at reset. The meter increase and then reseed value would have to be added on top of that to get the true RTP. This would give you over 100% at the highest RTP setting.

Progressive slots always have lower base game returns then non-progressives with the same true RTP. A casino with an 88% non-progressive Quick Hits would have its progressive Quick Hits with a base return more like 85%, to offset the meter money that comes from the house.

What the Bally person told Mission is probably true for the progressive slot par sheets, because at least for three reeled slots those list the base game payback independently of the full game so that casinos can figure out the true RTP if they want to mess around with the progressive (which they sometimes do for promos).

Response to Smurgerburger, in order:

1.) The progressive game and the non-progressive game can exist on the same physical device. I have personally seen this. The progressive feature can be turned on or off as they wish. In some states, any progressive contributions would have to be moved to a different machine, (as was done in this case, though I don't know if it was required in this particular state) but the machines were definitely converted from progressives to flat tops.

---Also, on the dollar QHP, used to be everything was a progressive, then nothing was, then only QHP symbols were, then QHP symbols were not but 9QH symbols were and nothing else. You can do all kinds of stuff.

2.) It's possible that the higher return percentages would include meter rates as well as free game changes, individually or simultaneously, I never considered that until today.

3.) Why are they too high for the base game at reset? I don't know if you are aware of this, but that particular unit is not strictly a penny machine. I have seen it as high as nickels and can imagine it being capable of quarters play...though I have not seen it operate on quarters.

I also disagree that the RTP would be greater than 100%. I do not believe that the meter increase totals a bit over 4%.

4.) "Always," is a dangerous word, especially in gambling. And, again, the same physical units are capable of being progressives or not being progressives. Furthermore, one example of a condition in which the minimum payout requirement is greater than what you are saying is that of Class III machines in Tribal Casinos in New York State in which the minimum permitted return is 92%. Your 83% machine could not even exist unless the meter move was crazy high.

5.) Maybe, but I was extremely specific when I asked the question.

Here's something:

UPDATES
SMI #Y0870
88.03%/88.03%

SMI #Y0871
90.09%/90.09%

SMI #Y0872
91.96%/91.96%

SMI #Y0873
94.07%/94.07%

SMI #Y0874
95.94%/95.94%

The difference between the lowest two is 2.06%. The difference between the second and third lowest is 1.87%. The difference between the two highest is also 1.87%. The difference between the lowest and the middle is 3.93%, which is 2.06% + 1.87%.

Kind of makes me want to go figure out what the progressive contribution is now on these. I wouldn't be surprised to see that it is 1.87% or 2.06% with the other difference being the free games reel stripping. That makes a lot of sense, I couldn't imagine a difference in overall machine return of 7.91% just on how free games perform. I want to say that would be extremely noticeable, but maybe if only played in close proximity to one another.

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Originally Posted by Mission146

Response to Smurgerburger, in order:

1.) The progressive game and the non-progressive game can exist on the same physical device. I have personally seen this. The progressive feature can be turned on or off as they wish. In some states, any progressive contributions would have to be moved to a different machine, (as was done in this case, though I don't know if it was required in this particular state) but the machines were definitely converted from progressives to flat tops.

---Also, on the dollar QHP, used to be everything was a progressive, then nothing was, then only QHP symbols were, then QHP symbols were not but 9QH symbols were and nothing else. You can do all kinds of stuff.

2.) It's possible that the higher return percentages would include meter rates as well as free game changes, individually or simultaneously, I never considered that until today.

3.) Why are they too high for the base game at reset? I don't know if you are aware of this, but that particular unit is not strictly a penny machine. I have seen it as high as nickels and can imagine it being capable of quarters play...though I have not seen it operate on quarters.

I also disagree that the RTP would be greater than 100%. I do not believe that the meter increase totals a bit over 4%.

4.) "Always," is a dangerous word, especially in gambling. And, again, the same physical units are capable of being progressives or not being progressives. Furthermore, one example of a condition in which the minimum payout requirement is greater than what you are saying is that of Class III machines in Tribal Casinos in New York State in which the minimum permitted return is 92%. Your 83% machine could not even exist unless the meter move was crazy high.

5.) Maybe, but I was extremely specific when I asked the question.

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I actually edited my 83% to 85% before you sent your response to give a more likely figure.

What I meant is that if a casino wants a slot to have around an 88% return and is deciding between the progressive and the non-progressive versions, the progressive will have a lower *base* RTP (that is its return minus the meter contribution).

It's not that casinos don't screw up, it's that between the two options "88% return progressive" and "88% return non-progressive" the latter must have a lower base return because the meter contribution comes out of the casino's end.

Regarding the 100% figure that was just a guess, I don't know what the meter rates are but at a glance you will get unrealistically high numbers for both the highest and the lowest setting if the total meter contribution is something like 2% (in fact I think the 88% minimum RTP is outdated even if it does include the meter contributions).

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

I actually edited my 83% to 85% before you sent your response to give a more likely figure.

What I meant is that if a casino wants a slot to have around an 88% return and is deciding between the progressive and the non-progressive versions, the progressive will have a lower *base* RTP (that is its return minus the meter contribution).

It's not that casinos don't screw up, it's that between the two options "88% return progressive" and "88% return non-progressive" the latter must have a lower base return because the meter contribution comes out of the casino's end.

Regarding the 100% figure that was just a guess, I don't know what the meter rates are but at a glance you will get unrealistically high numbers for both the highest and the lowest setting if the total meter contribution is something like 2% (in fact I think the 88% minimum RTP is outdated even if it does include the meter contributions).

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1-2.) I agree that is often the case, but I was told by the Bally guy that the 88-something percent represented the lowest possible return on the machine regardless of the progressive.

3.) That's true, but I think the 88%-something is the lowest possible return on the machine title. Like I said, you can have this machine with no progressive turned on whatsoever with it being the same machine (and presumably the same RNG chip).

4.) I don't think ~90% is unrealistically high, even for a penny game. These particular games play much faster than many others and also worth considering is the fact that they do not have a licensed theme like your Playboy (which is a Quick Hit game also, coincidentally), Indiana Jones, Game of Thrones or anything like that...so a normal Quick Hit Platinum game is not having to pay anyone for licensing. The other thing is that this is not a game that takes up a lot of space or has way over-the-top graphics or sound, either, so it stands to reason that this is the sort of machine that will be on the higher returning end of penny machines. And, again, can also come in other denominations...2c is a very common one for this game.

With that said, it is very possible that later versions of the game came out with a lower base RTP that can still operate in the same physical cabinet, so that is a consideration. Generally speaking, if I am trying to determine potential play points for an unknown progressive that I think might be good, my priority order would be:

1.) Figure out the meter move.

2.) Do an empirical analysis of the symbols required to get the progressive (couple thousand spins) to determine the rough probability of hitting the progressive.

3.) Make an assumption as to the base return (reels + free games) consisting of the reset value of the progressives + free games + base spins to be equal to the statutory minimum return of the jurisdiction in question.

From a practical standpoint, Vegas is often going to have better slot returns than other places, but interestingly enough, at 75%, Nevada has one of the lowest permitted returns in the entire country.

The meters add up to 1.87% in case anyone's curious.

Smurgerburger, you rule! I think we have this one figured out then:

UPDATES
SMI #Y0870
88.03%/88.03%---Shitty bonus, no progressives. (Flat top)

SMI #Y0871
90.09%/90.09%---Decent bonus, no progressives.

SMI #Y0872
91.96%/91.96%---Decent bonus with progressives.

SMI #Y0873
94.07%/94.07% (!!!???) Bonus, no progressives.

SMI #Y0874
95.94%/95.94% (!!!???) Bonus, with progressives.

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Originally Posted by Mission146

Smurgerburger, you rule! I think we have this one figured out then:

UPDATES
SMI #Y0870
88.03%/88.03%---Shitty bonus, no progressives. (Flat top)

SMI #Y0871
90.09%/90.09%---Decent bonus, no progressives.

SMI #Y0872
91.96%/91.96%---Decent bonus with progressives.

SMI #Y0873
94.07%/94.07% (!!!???) Bonus, no progressives.

SMI #Y0874
95.94%/95.94% (!!!???) Bonus, with progressives.

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So here are some double meter sweet spots for the 91.86% chip - $35/$120 (5QH/6QH) is the creme de la creme:

I'm guessing with all the experienced players here on VCT that others have seen higher 5 QH progressives ($15 reset), but this is my record anyhow. I assume this one was probably played below the $1.50 bet quite a bit in order to drive it up so high.

4.3 X Reset is extremely rare, probably a lot of donkeys betting 1.20$.

Nope, I've seen barely above triple. That's a unicorn.

I agree with both of you, never saw that on a $1.50. Have seen high numbers on $3.00 because many don’t play max on it. But it takes a lot of plops to let a $1.50 get that high playing less than max.

It's high enough that I don't even include a number that high on the progressive 5Q/6Q matrix I posted earlier in this thread ($44 is the highest number in that table), LOL.