Advantage play / cheating / crime....where is the line?

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Because it is wrong. Plain and simple. Manipulating a machine to give you a higher payout than what you were playing and won is wrong. Accepting that money is stealing. Now I am not going to win an argument with people that think stealing isn't wrong. So I am going to stop trying.

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Theft is a crime, they must not have thought that it falls under theft because the casino gave them the money of their own volition and not under duress.

You know, a contractor can accept money and enter into a contract, but then never show up to do the work and the lawsuit would generally take place in civil court as long as the contractor's bona fides were otherwise in order. Is it wrong that the guy didn't start working on the day he said he would? Maybe, but that doesn't necessarily make it criminal. Something can also be illegal without being criminal, which is why we have civil suits.

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But I am seriously surprised at you Mission. Maybe I am reading it wrong but I get the feeling most of these guys aren't saying it isn't wrong. They are saying they just don't care. There is an AP mentality that anything goes against the casinos. That is a different argument I don't agree with that. Wrong is wrong. Theft is theft and taking something under false pretenses like this is theft. But Mission, unless you are just yanking my chain, it honestly seems like you don't understand between right and wrong? You have kids don't ya? What an example you must set. :(

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I'm saying I don't care. The potential to make a couple million overrides my self-view (or whatever the hell you want to call it) or the morality principles when I do my internal cost/benefit analysis. The potential to go to prison would swing it back the other way as would the possibility of hurting an individual person in the process. Like I said, I wouldn't be hitting any small time operators with this play.

What's my example for the kids? If you can make two million dollars and its not illegal and doesn't hurt any individual people, then make two million dollars. Shit, I'd donate a good part of it and do more good with it than the casinos planned to. I'd be dropping hundred dollar tips at casual restaurants that are $12-$15 for an entree.

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So just out of curiosity Mission, since you seem to have no line between right and wrong, or if you do it is god knows where, let me try to figure out where it might be? Older guy drops his TITO ticket? Do you distract him, pick it up and keep it? Anything goes right? Is it ok, to follow a patron into the mens room, club him and steal his money as you and several others seem to think it ok to steal from the casinos? Exactly where is your line on right and wrong? Or are there absolutely no lines once you walk through the casino doors. It is get every cent at any cost. :confused:

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Are we going question by questions? Will there be more?

Older Guy: I pick it up, but only to hand it to him.

Patron in the Men's Room: Clubbing him could cause him serious physical pain, better to use chloroform. JK

It also doesn't have anything to do with being in a casino or being somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Methinks kew is taking the contrarian position just to stir the pot.

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I am not Rob. Here is a paragraph from the article that for me sums it up nicely.

Nestor got the first significant winning hand of the trip: four fours and a kicker for $500. He tapped the magic sequence, hit Cash Out, and watched with delight as his $500 became a $10,000 jackpot. He tipped the slot attendant $20.

He played and won $500. He cashed out $10,000. Anyone who doesn't see something wrong with that, has abandoned all sense of right and wrong. They just have.

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No, I do not see even the slightest thing wrong with that. I've turned $500 into $10k multiple times myself. It's even more fun turning $1000 into $20k!

The reason why I see nothing wrong is because the casino wants me to gamble, I did, and I did nothing more than legally push buttons and insert even more money in order to create the payoff amount. Yes the pay table initially showed I was playing for $500, but the machine allowed me the opportunity to make it even greater. Further, all moves were above board, there was no sneakily hiding anything, and anyone who wanted could observe what I was doing at any point in time.

I earned every dollar I made. I outsmarted the casinos in their own games and I will be forever proud of that. My family will be also when I tell them how I did what I did.

I noticed you didn't answer my question unowme. So I am not going to answer any more of yours. :cool:

But concerning this Kane/Nestor case. Had it gone forward, there would have been difficulties for the prosecutors. Bob Nersesian frequently talks about how easy it is to "lose the jury" or even Judges when you get into the math of gambling.

And Nestor, in the article, when he though he was going to be charged and tried in Pennsylvania, even said he didn't think a jury would convict him. And he might have been right. You get 2 people on that jury that are gamblers and don't like casinos and they are liable to not convict even if the guy stood up at a table in the casino with a gun and stole chips. :cool: There would have been challenges. But the case should have been about theft, not some hacking act designed about banking and national defense.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

You guys are getting all fancy and technical. The mistake made was when they tried to make it into a "hacking case". It wasn't a hacking case. The judge was right, nobody hacked anything. The case that it should have been was a case about theft. This was the big mistake. They didn't need to make it about any more than that. They accepted money under false pretenses (that they had won it playing higher stakes than they actually had). legally....THAT is theft.

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I don't know what you're not getting about the casino gave them the money. When the money is willingly given not under a state of duress, it's not theft anymore. When it comes to, "False Pretenses," now you're talking a civil.

Criminal Theft: Taking

Civil Theft: Being given it under false pretenses or for potentially other reasons.

That's why I keep saying the individual casinos could theoretically attempt a lawsuit for recovery, but by a criminal standard, it is absolutely not theft. The prosecutors weren't getting fancy, they did not bring criminal theft charges because nothing even remotely resembling criminal theft took place.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

They weren't prosecuted in Nevada because the feds took over the case. And the Feds charged Nestor and Kane with conspiracy and violations of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. Passed in 1986, the CFAA was enacted to punish hackers who remotely crack computers related to national defense or banking. (taken from the article). And that is just weird. I mean this clearly had nothing to do with national defense or banking. Being a new kind of case, they really screwed it up. The charge should have been theft or something related to that, NOT the hacking angle.

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If there had been theft, Nevada could have charged them once the feds were done with them and it would not have been double jeopardy because the Feds weren't charging them with theft. Also, they were never acquitted or convicted, the case was simply dismissed, so it would not be double jeopardy because they were never tried.

They didn't screw anything up other than trying to make a non-criminal offense try to fit the definition of a criminal offense.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Methinks kew is taking the contrarian position just to stir the pot.

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I am not Rob. Here is a paragraph from the article that for me sums it up nicely.

Nestor got the first significant winning hand of the trip: four fours and a kicker for $500. He tapped the magic sequence, hit Cash Out, and watched with delight as his $500 became a $10,000 jackpot. He tipped the slot attendant $20.

He played and won $500. He cashed out $10,000. Anyone who doesn't see something wrong with that, has abandoned all sense of right and wrong. They just have.

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No, I do not see even the slightest thing wrong with that. I've turned $500 into $10k multiple times myself. It's even more fun turning $1000 into $20k!

The reason why I see nothing wrong is because the casino wants me to gamble, I did, and I did nothing more than legally push buttons and insert even more money in order to create the payoff amount. Yes the pay table initially showed I was playing for $500, but the machine allowed me the opportunity to make it even greater. Further, all moves were above board, there was no sneakily hiding anything, and anyone who wanted could observe what I was doing at any point in time.

I earned every dollar I made. I outsmarted the casinos in their own games and I will be forever proud of that. My family will be also when I tell them how I did what I did.

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Rob, you didn't earn every dollar. I don't believe you really believe that. And that defense you are using.....all I did was push buttons completely legal. The computer hackers who hack into Bank of America or American Express could say the exact same thing. It doesn't fly.

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Originally Posted by Mission146

I don't know what you're not getting about the casino gave them the money. When the money is willingly given not under a state of duress, it's not theft anymore.

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Completely untrue Mission. When an ATM spits out an extra $400 there is no "state of duress". But if the person takes and keeps that money it is theft. There have been many cases of this successfully prosecuted. Well, I don't know how many, but there have been cases prosecuted and it just isn't even a legal question. It is theft.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Rob, I want to ask you a question and I am trusting you to give me an honest answer. Either Today or yesterday, you mentioned that you had never even shared what you were doing with your family. Why not? Yeah, I know as AP's we all go through that some of our family and friends just don't have the slightest understanding of what we do, so we don't talk about it. But be honest: There would have been some in your family (maybe your adults kids) who don't see it as you do....having done nothing wrong. And you wanted to avoid having this same discussion and argument with them didn't you?

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I didn't tell my daughter anything about this because she has zero interest in what I did when I gambled. My son was in Iraq and Afghanistan so what I was doing was of no real interest to him. As for my wife--she never came with me when I played professionally and her only interest in casinos involves shows and dining anyway.

But there was no hiding the money I brought home. At one point my daughter said to me "Dad, you're a video poker God!"

My wife already knew that :)

What will they say when I unload this on them? Nothing. It doesn't matter. They know I am a very decent and loving father, grandfather and husband who's never been in any kind of trouble. They trust I know what I'm doing. At the time, I admit I was a bit nervous because everything was an unknown at the time. But I never felt I was breaking any laws. It was actually somewhat of a relief seeing these greedy guys get nailed, ending my play. But now, if I were to find it again, I'd play it exactly the same as I did back then--this time with a great big smile on my face.

Look we are going in circles here. This is theft. You guys are comfortable with the play and are saying you would do it or in the case of Rob, do it again. That's fine. It is still theft and still wrong. You are just ok with it.

I'll tell you what, you get back to me with the name of the priest that you explain this to who says there is nothing wrong with this and then we will talk some more. :cool:

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

I am not Rob. Here is a paragraph from the article that for me sums it up nicely.

Nestor got the first significant winning hand of the trip: four fours and a kicker for $500. He tapped the magic sequence, hit Cash Out, and watched with delight as his $500 became a $10,000 jackpot. He tipped the slot attendant $20.

He played and won $500. He cashed out $10,000. Anyone who doesn't see something wrong with that, has abandoned all sense of right and wrong. They just have.

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No, I do not see even the slightest thing wrong with that. I've turned $500 into $10k multiple times myself. It's even more fun turning $1000 into $20k!

The reason why I see nothing wrong is because the casino wants me to gamble, I did, and I did nothing more than legally push buttons and insert even more money in order to create the payoff amount. Yes the pay table initially showed I was playing for $500, but the machine allowed me the opportunity to make it even greater. Further, all moves were above board, there was no sneakily hiding anything, and anyone who wanted could observe what I was doing at any point in time.

I earned every dollar I made. I outsmarted the casinos in their own games and I will be forever proud of that. My family will be also when I tell them how I did what I did.

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Rob, you didn't earn every dollar. I don't believe you really believe that. And that defense you are using.....all I did was push buttons completely legal. The computer hackers who hack into Bank of America or American Express could say the exact same thing. It doesn't fly.

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That's apples and oranges kew. Going after money in banks that you're not paying anything to access is a million miles away from paying for a vp hand and the machine offering you the opportunity to collect a whole lot more than you went in expecting to collect.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Rob, I want to ask you a question and I am trusting you to give me an honest answer. Either Today or yesterday, you mentioned that you had never even shared what you were doing with your family. Why not? Yeah, I know as AP's we all go through that some of our family and friends just don't have the slightest understanding of what we do, so we don't talk about it. But be honest: There would have been some in your family (maybe your adults kids) who don't see it as you do....having done nothing wrong. And you wanted to avoid having this same discussion and argument with them didn't you?

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I didn't tell my daughter anything about this because she has zero interest in what I did when I gambled. My son was in Iraq and Afghanistan so what I was doing was of no real interest to him. As for my wife--she never came with me when I played professionally and her only interest in casinos involves shows and dining anyway.

But there was no hiding the money I brought home. At one point my daughter said to me "Dad, you're a video poker God!"

My wife already knew that :)

What will they say when I unload this on them? Nothing. It doesn't matter. They know I am a very decent and loving father, grandfather and husband who's never been in any kind of trouble. They trust I know what I'm doing. At the time, I admit I was a bit nervous because everything was an unknown at the time. But I never felt I was breaking any laws. It was actually somewhat of a relief seeing these greedy guys get nailed, ending my play. But now, if I were to find it again, I'd play it exactly the same as I did back then--this time with a great big smile on my face.

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You are Italian right Rob? So maybe you have some personal experience with this in your family history. The mob guys were all very loving fathers, grandfathers and husbands. That doesn't mean they didn't do anything illegal. ;) Like I said, get back to me with the name of the priest that you explain this to who says you did nothing wrong. Then we will talk some more.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by Mission146

I don't know what you're not getting about the casino gave them the money. When the money is willingly given not under a state of duress, it's not theft anymore.

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Completely untrue Mission. When an ATM spits out an extra $400 there is no "state of duress". But if the person takes and keeps that money it is theft. There have been many cases of this successfully prosecuted. Well, I don't know how many, but there have been cases prosecuted and it just isn't even a legal question. It is theft.

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In that case, it is not looked at as the business giving the person the money of their own volition. Like was stated in the case, the machine worked as the machine was programmed to work. The machine worked as Nevada Gaming Commission approved it to work. It's not a matter of an error, it is the machine operating the way it was designed. Intended? Maybe not. Designed? Yes.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Rob, I want to ask you a question and I am trusting you to give me an honest answer. Either Today or yesterday, you mentioned that you had never even shared what you were doing with your family. Why not? Yeah, I know as AP's we all go through that some of our family and friends just don't have the slightest understanding of what we do, so we don't talk about it. But be honest: There would have been some in your family (maybe your adults kids) who don't see it as you do....having done nothing wrong. And you wanted to avoid having this same discussion and argument with them didn't you?

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I didn't tell my daughter anything about this because she has zero interest in what I did when I gambled. My son was in Iraq and Afghanistan so what I was doing was of no real interest to him. As for my wife--she never came with me when I played professionally and her only interest in casinos involves shows and dining anyway.

But there was no hiding the money I brought home. At one point my daughter said to me "Dad, you're a video poker God!"

My wife already knew that :)

What will they say when I unload this on them? Nothing. It doesn't matter. They know I am a very decent and loving father, grandfather and husband who's never been in any kind of trouble. They trust I know what I'm doing. At the time, I admit I was a bit nervous because everything was an unknown at the time. But I never felt I was breaking any laws. It was actually somewhat of a relief seeing these greedy guys get nailed, ending my play. But now, if I were to find it again, I'd play it exactly the same as I did back then--this time with a great big smile on my face.

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You are Italian right Rob? So maybe you have some personal experience with this in your family history. The mob guys were all very loving fathers, grandfathers and husbands. That doesn't mean they didn't do anything illegal. ;) Like I said, get back to me with the name of the priest that you explain this to who says you did nothing wrong. Then we will talk some more.

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A priest will give absolution after determining the size of the donation in the basket.

Look here's the thing. We all do what we are comfortable with. And we all have a pretty intense dislike for the casino Industry (excepting bob21 of course) and that "clouds' some of us, maybe pushing us to be a little more ok with things that we otherwise might not. The least you can do is admit it. Axelwolf and MaxPen both have acknowledged that it is wrong but they are comfortable with that. That's fine. My comfort level is a little different. I am entitled to that opinion.

And I am no angel. I am going to expose myself (so look out) here by pointing out my own hypocrisy on the subject. Y'all remember the ASM incident last summer/ fall. This reminder will endear me to a couple folks on this site all over again. Well, like Rob and John Kane, I purchased the machine, so I could take it apart and learn how it works and how, 2 at the time (now 3) casinos had used the machine to cheat me, and to learn how I could turn that back on them, Just as some AP's were doing, who ended up not too happy with me at the time.

I mean you can make the case that although smaller scale money wise, my actions were not all that different, although I will make the case back that now 3 casinos cheated first. So I am very comfortable with this action. :cool: But I am just not comfortable with what Kane and Nestor did and Rob says he also did. Sorry. That's me. :cool:

And BTW, I am a pretty anti-casino type person. I think the casino industry is an extremely predatory industry. And I think practically every day the grow more unsavory. And I think they are cheating and doing things that "lean towards cheating" more and more. I am just not ready to say, you know what....anything goes. :rolleyes: Maybe some day. Maybe some day not too far off. :( But I am not there yet.

There is no chance that I could have figured something like this out. Rob says I am jealous. Trust me I am not. But to be fair, if I had somehow stumbled on to this, I don't know. :confused: Would be one hell of a lot of temptation. :( And maybe I would have given in to that temptation. But I think I would still know and be able to admit what was right and wrong.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Look we are going in circles here. This is theft. You guys are comfortable with the play and are saying you would do it or in the case of Rob, do it again. That's fine. It is still theft and still wrong. You are just ok with it.

I'll tell you what, you get back to me with the name of the priest that you explain this to who says there is nothing wrong with this and then we will talk some more. :cool:

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So the line has been set. It is morally correct to violate house policy by counting and hole carding at blackjack. But it is not morally correct to take advantage of a malfunctioning machine which is also against house policy. But somehow I don't get the logic of one being correct and the other being incorrect

I found a book on the ground on the way to the park and it had this (what I assumed to be) fictional story in it (personally I would never participate in an event such as that related in the story below):

The way to run this move safely IMHO, is to make it a two person play.

Combatant 1 is the Requestor. Combatant 2 is the Scalper.
Preliminary work:A suitable casino is identified (Game King 5.X machine(s) are present) by the Requestor (The Scalper does not enter the casino at this phase of the operation) and this information (location of the machine, notable landmarks to navigate to the machine) is relayed to the Scalper via an in person meeting at the residence or hotel room (the hotel is not attached to or affiliated with the target casino - as if I had to tell you that) of the combatant(s).
The Requestor re-enters the target casino a few days later and asks a slot tech to enable Double-Up on the Game King 5.X or identifies those Game King 5.Xs that already have them enabled (unlikely but totally possible) at the target Casino. The Requestor then plays the machine straight up for an hour and then leaves the casino and hits McDonalds.
The Scalper is waiting at the Mcdonalds and observes The Requestor. If The Requestor orders a Big Mac the play is on (Double-Up has been enabled). If The Requestor orders a Filet o Fish the play is off (double-up was not enabled).
The Requestor is eating a Big Mac. The Scalper enters the casino and uses the information relayed during the residential/hotel room meeting to find the target machine. The Scalper then executes the move.
Neither combatant has done anything illegal. Per Nestor/Kane it is perfectly legal to perform the move. It is also not illegal to request double up.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Look we are going in circles here. This is theft. You guys are comfortable with the play and are saying you would do it or in the case of Rob, do it again. That's fine. It is still theft and still wrong. You are just ok with it.

I'll tell you what, you get back to me with the name of the priest that you explain this to who says there is nothing wrong with this and then we will talk some more. :cool:

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So the line has been set. It is morally correct to violate house policy by counting and hole carding at blackjack. But it is not morally correct to take advantage of a malfunctioning machine which is also against house policy. But somehow I don't get the logic of one being correct and the other being incorrect

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Oh good grief mickey. House policy!?! You are sounding like that Dan Character From Wizard's site that passed away a year or so ago that used to work at Fiesta Henderson. He was always babbling on about "house policy". :D You know what the house policy is? They don't want anyone to win. :rolleyes:

Look card counting is definitely settled law. It has been ruled on numerous times and has never been found to be illegal or cheating. I want to say Hole-carding has also been ruled on at least a few times and is similarly settled law, but I really can't recall by name any cases. We could ask Bob N.

But this specific play has not really been ruled on. The case we are talking about didn't get to a ruling. I am telling you the feds screwed up by attempting to make it a case about hacking. Nothing was hacked, so the Judge ruled correctly in pre-trial. It should have been a theft case. We don't know what the outcome of that would have been.

What we need is a second case. It would have been nice if Rob had stepped up and taken this on, instead of cowering in his RV, hiding out for 10 years. ;) That's a joke, but seriously, Rob being concerned about the statute of limitations speaks volumes. He can say he don't feel he did anything "wrong" but his concerns about the statute of limitations really tells the story. Actions always speak louder than words.

Speaking of Bob N. We both have a lot of respect for Bob no? Most here? Rob? How about we just pose the question to Bob N? I mean we can ask him your card counting and hole-carding question as well, but he has already voiced his opinion. But I haven't heard him mention an opinion on the Double up case. Let's ask? He has always leaned towards the players in his legal opinion, but I'll bet you aren't going to like his answer as to whether that is illegal and I bet you know it. ;)

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Originally Posted by tableplay

I found a book on the ground on the way to the park and it had this (what I assumed to be) fictional story in it (personally I would never participate in an event such as that related in the story below):

The way to run this move safely IMHO, is to make it a two person play.

Combatant 1 is the Requestor. Combatant 2 is the Scalper.
Preliminary work:A suitable casino is identified (Game King 5.X machine(s) are present) by the Requestor (The Scalper does not enter the casino at this phase of the operation) and this information (location of the machine, notable landmarks to navigate to the machine) is relayed to the Scalper via an in person meeting at the residence or hotel room (the hotel is not attached to or affiliated with the target casino - as if I had to tell you that) of the combatant(s).
The Requestor re-enters the target casino a few days later and asks a slot tech to enable Double-Up on the Game King 5.X or identifies those Game King 5.Xs that already have them enabled (unlikely but totally possible) at the target Casino. The Requestor then plays the machine straight up for an hour and then leaves the casino and hits McDonalds.
The Scalper is waiting at the Mcdonalds and observes The Requestor. If The Requestor orders a Big Mac the play is on (Double-Up has been enabled). If The Requestor orders a Filet o Fish the play is off (double-up was not enabled).
The Requestor is eating a Big Mac. The Scalper enters the casino and uses the information relayed during the residential/hotel room meeting to find the target machine. The Scalper then executes the move.
Neither combatant has done anything illegal. Per Nestor/Kane it is perfectly legal to perform the move. It is also not illegal to request double up.

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Tableplay, some of you guys are just not being honest about this situation. If you were to get an account hacked and your identity stolen, have charged run up on your credit card and new accounts opened in your name, would you show up at the trial of the guy who hacked you and tell the judge he did nothing wrong, that all he did was push a few buttons on his computer and there is nothing illegal about that?

How about this? A guy picks a lock and breaks into a house. His defense is that it is not his fault. It is the fault of the lock company for not having a more secure lock. Do you think that is going to fly? Do you think he did nothing wrong?

I do you one better. You guys that are arguing with me that there is nothing wrong with what Kane and Nestor did, and have a mother who is alive and cognitive, go to your mom and explain to her what you want to do, that you would like to go to the casino, win a jackpot that pays $500, manipulate the machine to paying you $20,000 and ask her if there is anything wrong with that? Now after you put some ice on your face because your mom slapped you upside the head asking "what the hell is wrong with you?", you come back and tell us what she said. :D


Wrong is wrong! And getting paid $20,000 when you hit a $500 jackpot is wrong. You people should stop pretending to be stupid, and be honest.