AP Exemplar

Some more Arm Chair Gambling at its finest...

I started my session around 9:30PM and ended up on a Dice AP Play believe it or Not.
I may have been able to squeeze a little more AP out of the game but decided to go home at 7:30AM.
You may be wondering how this game could get an advantage? Pretty Simple!
You bet small and these 4 other guys were at the table all night.
When you threw them something that hit pretty big they threw you 50 to 150 dollars in Green Chips.
They were close to getting felted or felted and I gave them back a small percentage of what they gave me.
Alcohol can be an APs friend if said AP doesn't drink.

Here are my Jackpots for the night In Order. Left To Right.

The Royal was a 2 Line Royal which was nice.

I am never going to post any W2G's so I guess this really never happened.

On the 2 Dollar Spin Poker it looks like 1165 but you have to multiply it by 2 for 2330.

Always keep your machine set to Turbo.

I was in trouble at the next Casino Playing 10 dollar machine.
However, I got out of the hole and hit the dice pit afterwards.

Only once in my life did a player throw me a tip at craps. I gave it to the dealers.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Only once in my life did a player throw me a tip at craps. I gave it to the dealers.

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These weren't tips per se these were green chips and they kept coming.
I am not giving a bunch of green chips to the dealers.
These guys wouldn't take no for an answer when I told them it was too much.
Same situation when everyone wants to pay for the check when you are out at some big dinner.
These guys were playing pretty strong and everything and anything.
I was happy to join their party. They welcomed me with open arms.
This isn't the first time I have done this. I have seen this many times.
You must not really play much dice because it is pretty common to tip the shooter.

If 18 Yos in a row happened on this table they would of had to take a check for all their winnings.

I guess I don't play much craps. Ive seen shooters get tipped no more than a dozen times in my life.

I have been given green chips at the table multiple times and black chips once. The last time we were in Tahoe earlier this year, i was having a good roll and this guy playing lavendar was just killing it especially on the hard ways. He put black chips in my rails three times.

All those wins mean nothing.

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Originally Posted by SLaPiNFuNK

All those wins mean nothing.

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I agree. He is not the armchair gambler he mentioned. This is a severe addict who just plays for as much intermittent satisfaction as he can get.

Any wonder why he's anonymous?

I'm sure monet was being sarcastic when he used the phrase Arm Chair Gambling.

I think they're nice wins. Nothing wrong with hitting winners.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I'm sure monet was being sarcastic when he used the phrase Arm Chair Gambling.

I think they're nice wins. Nothing wrong with hitting winners.

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Of course. And what Jason was saying is the guy plays so much it's very likely he lost his bankroll even though he's boasting about these winners. In fact, are these even his? Anonymous posters out Of WoV have long been known to throw up pics of just about anything and then claim they hit them.

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Originally Posted by dannyj

I have been given green chips at the table multiple times and black chips once. The last time we were in Tahoe earlier this year, i was having a good roll and this guy playing lavendar was just killing it especially on the hard ways. He put black chips in my rails three times.

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On one occasion, my friend and I sat down at a higher level blackjack table. There was one other player and he seemed to be on a roll. So the dealer looked at us and I said he's on a roll--we'll wait. This player was betting table max of $2,000 and winning every hand. It didn't matter what he was dealt--he got the winning draw. I never saw anything like it. Anyway, the end of the shoe came and he asked if we would wait again. Since I like to see other gamblers win, I said sure. He kept winning like that for 2 more shoes. Every now and then he would move a $500 chip to each of us. On the first one I said no no no, that's not necessary as I slowly slid the chip towards me. After a while I just shut up and let him do it. When he finally quit and colored up we took our stack of $500 chips and cashed out as well. Didn't play one hand.

I love these guy. They are great!
A few months ago they cry about nobody posts pictures anymore!?
Next they post their own pictures and stories.
I post mine and they say...
Those pictures mean nothing!
Mendel and Son! This site was better when Funk was crying to his father about a few dollars!
Ungrateful Bastard!!

Some of us lost our fathers at an early age or didn't have one all together.
I would give anything to of had mine for the last 15 years.
Not Slap though... he just loves money and complaining to an internet forum about how he hates his father.
Calling him all sorts of names, in front of a bunch of strangers.
Instead of just working with his father and biting the bullet and keeping his mouth shut, he thinks this world cares or owes him something.

One thing these pictures mean is that it is very difficult to go 20 thousand hands on single line without a Quad!

Monet you keep mentioning going 20,000 hands without a quad. Who exactly said that?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I guess I don't play much craps.

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That used to be your main game for many years.

I recall many stories from you on other boards about your craps adventures: a cursed table, marrying at a craps table, even 18 yo's in a row.

Yes, VP is your game now, but things used to be different.

I said that about the 20K habds.... it is theoretically possible...

Win pictures are fun to look at... but they don't mean anything... it does not mean you booked a winning session... it also doesn't show you had a losing session.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I'm sure monet was being sarcastic when he used the phrase Arm Chair Gambling.

I think they're nice wins. Nothing wrong with hitting winners.

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Of course. And what Jason was saying is the guy plays so much it's very likely he lost his bankroll even though he's boasting about these winners. In fact, are these even his? Anonymous posters out Of WoV have long been known to throw up pics of just about anything and then claim they hit them.

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He's down to playing just $45 and $50 a hand. You never play that low, right Rob?

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Originally Posted by MisterV

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

I guess I don't play much craps.

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That used to be your main game for many years.

I recall many stories from you on other boards about your craps adventures: a cursed table, marrying at a craps table, even 18 yo's in a row.

Yes, VP is your game now, but things used to be different.

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Yeah, but I guess I haven't played as much craps as monet because in my life I haven't seem more than a dozen shooters getting tipped.

Okay, yeah, it's possible you might not see a quad in 20,000 hands. But who really has gone even one thousand hands without a 4oak?

Yeah I've had "sessions" without a 4oak but admittedly they were short sessions.

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Originally Posted by monet

I love these guy. They are great!
A few months ago they cry about nobody posts pictures anymore!?
Next they post their own pictures and stories.
I post mine and they say...
Those pictures mean nothing!
Mendel and Son! This site was better when Funk was crying to his father about a few dollars!
Ungrateful Bastard!!

Some of us lost our fathers at an early age or didn't have one all together.
I would give anything to of had mine for the last 15 years.
Not Slap though... he just loves money and complaining to an internet forum about how he hates his father.
Calling him all sorts of names, in front of a bunch of strangers.
Instead of just working with his father and biting the bullet and keeping his mouth shut, he thinks this world cares or owes him something.

One thing these pictures mean is that it is very difficult to go 20 thousand hands on single line without a Quad!

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Maybe you don't get it, but pics of jackpots without W2g's is like mickeycrimm goingout without his diaper on.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by monet

I love these guy. They are great!
A few months ago they cry about nobody posts pictures anymore!?
Next they post their own pictures and stories.
I post mine and they say...
Those pictures mean nothing!
Mendel and Son! This site was better when Funk was crying to his father about a few dollars!
Ungrateful Bastard!!

Some of us lost our fathers at an early age or didn't have one all together.
I would give anything to of had mine for the last 15 years.
Not Slap though... he just loves money and complaining to an internet forum about how he hates his father.
Calling him all sorts of names, in front of a bunch of strangers.
Instead of just working with his father and biting the bullet and keeping his mouth shut, he thinks this world cares or owes him something.

One thing these pictures mean is that it is very difficult to go 20 thousand hands on single line without a Quad!

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Maybe you don't get it, but pics of jackpots without W2g's is like mickeycrimm goingout without his diaper on.

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And bragging about a 25K sequential without a pic or W2-G is why Rob can't get layed in a whorehouse with a fist full of hundreds.

Haven't played a ton of craps, but I was playing at Atlantis (Bahamas) a few years ago, minbetting for the free drinks, rolled several hardways in a row, guy betting them all throws me a purple chip (spoiler alert: I kept it).

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

He's down to playing just $45 and $50 a hand. You never play that low, right Rob?

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These guys are just misinformed and perhaps a little jealous.
When you see other members posting up worse games and hitting quarter Royals they praise them.
I try to show and teach players how to play some Video Poker and get over 100% on the base game.
Not only that but I try to instruct them how to go about getting over a 1% advantage and they just handle it.

Not only that but I have put up my own personal Reel Machine Plays.
I have told people exactly where they are and the exact entry point of playing them.
Nobody is playing them or care about the information but that isn't the point I am trying to make.
Perhaps it is though because many times I will tell people what to play and how to play it and they just do what they want which is completely against what I suggested.
Next they tell me out of 40 years of playing dice they only got tipped once from shooting in their lifetime!?
They also believe that going 20 thousand hands without a quad is a common occurrence.
Yet they can't even figure out simple math when it comes to the VP game and adding a simple thing like point day.
They butcher the math and they show how they butcher the strategy inside of 40 hands!
Not just one session of 40 hands but every session they completely butcher the strategy. making an average of 1 mistake per 15 hands!?
How can you win when you constantly go against the math or strategy??
Horse to water and making them drink if you understand my gist.

They balk or discredit any information that can help any serious players.
I see the same thing when Mickeycrimm posts up plays and math and large jackpot pictures.
It just goes along with the territory.

I thought back on who got tipped over all those years playing craps. Generally they were the young virgin shooters who had the minimum on the pass line, no odds, and hit the Firebet or the All. Other guys tipping other guys? Nope, that was rare.

But in my case a player tipped me by putting $10 on the hard 4 for me, while he had $500 on the hard 4. I was the shooter and I made the Hard 4.

I guess I was never at a table at Caesars where guys tipped guys.

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Originally Posted by monet

They balk or discredit any information that can help any serious players.
I see the same thing when Mickeycrimm posts up plays and math and large jackpot pictures.
It just goes along with the territory.

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I don`t get all the discrediting. If you went any further than posting pictures it could come back and bite you in some way, so I`m really not sure what else you could do to prove yourself. I personally get a lot out of posts like yours and Mickey`s. Isn`t that what these forums are for?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

But who really has gone even one thousand hands without a 4oak?

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I would say just about everyone has gone 1k hands w/o a 4oak. You have about a 1-in-10.6 chance of a given 1000-hand group of not hitting a 4oak.

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Originally Posted by monet

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

He's down to playing just $45 and $50 a hand. You never play that low, right Rob?

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These guys are just misinformed and perhaps a little jealous.
When you see other members posting up worse games and hitting quarter Royals they praise them.
I try to show and teach players how to play some Video Poker and get over 100% on the base game.
Not only that but I try to instruct them how to go about getting over a 1% advantage and they just handle it.

Not only that but I have put up my own personal Reel Machine Plays.
I have told people exactly where they are and the exact entry point of playing them.
Nobody is playing them or care about the information but that isn't the point I am trying to make.
Perhaps it is though because many times I will tell people what to play and how to play it and they just do what they want which is completely against what I suggested.
Next they tell me out of 40 years of playing dice they only got tipped once from shooting in their lifetime!?
They also believe that going 20 thousand hands without a quad is a common occurrence.
Yet they can't even figure out simple math when it comes to the VP game and adding a simple thing like point day.
They butcher the math and they show how they butcher the strategy inside of 40 hands!
Not just one session of 40 hands but every session they completely butcher the strategy. making an average of 1 mistake per 15 hands!?
How can you win when you constantly go against the math or strategy??
Horse to water and making them drink if you understand my gist.

They balk or discredit any information that can help any serious players.
I see the same thing when Mickeycrimm posts up plays and math and large jackpot pictures.
It just goes along with the territory.

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IIRC Alan even said that he prefers holding a high card over a pair in 8/5 BP with a progressive royal that isn't astronomically large enough to justify such a hold (good luck with the variance throwing away the pair even if it is). I had just thought that he had made a mistake of not noticing the pair when I watched the Youtube video, but when I pointed out the "mistake" in the forum here he said he prefers it over the pair, so it was intentional.

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Originally Posted by SplitFaceDisaster

I personally get a lot out of posts like yours and Mickey`s.

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Ditto. It's really weird and evil that people would actually troll these guys.

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by SplitFaceDisaster

I personally get a lot out of posts like yours and Mickey`s.

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Ditto. It's really weird and evil that people would actually troll these guys.

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Yeah, it takes a "special" kind of person, say, a failed teacher, or self-glorified bum, to dedicate his entire life to simplistic, casino games, to slam and berate everyone else for, supposedly, being "ploppies", to contribute nothing to society, and then to expect someone to give a shit. It's funny if nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by SplitFaceDisaster

I personally get a lot out of posts like yours and Mickey`s.

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Ditto. It's really weird and evil that people would actually troll these guys.

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Yeah, it takes a "special" kind of person, say, a failed teacher, or self-glorified bum, to dedicate his entire life to simplistic, casino games, to slam and berate everyone else for, supposedly, being "ploppies", to contribute nothing to society, and then to expect someone to give a shit. It's funny if nothing else.

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The usual Straw Men from Mr. Pseudo-Science. Maxpen, you forgot to include Oneshitblunder in your list.

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

Yeah, it takes a "special" kind of person, say, a failed teacher, or self-glorified bum, to dedicate his entire life to simplistic, casino games, to slam and berate everyone else for, supposedly, being "ploppies", to contribute nothing to society, and then to expect someone to give a shit. It's funny if nothing else.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GPEMx8dTbY

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

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Originally Posted by tableplay

Ditto. It's really weird and evil that people would actually troll these guys.

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Yeah, it takes a "special" kind of person, say, a failed teacher, or self-glorified bum, to dedicate his entire life to simplistic, casino games, to slam and berate everyone else for, supposedly, being "ploppies", to contribute nothing to society, and then to expect someone to give a shit. It's funny if nothing else.

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The usual Straw Men from Mr. Pseudo-Science. Maxpen, you forgot to include Oneshitblunder in your list.

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What's "weird and evil" is how grown men can take such baloney so personally.

monet listen up: you're no "teacher". There's nothing you've shown that has any tutorial meaning to anybody. In fact, you've been factually wrong on your free play and cash back claims multiple times, and when asked the hard questions about it you do what every faker does--divert & deflect. See redietz for confirmation.

And all we've see from you is a bunch of pictures that have no identification or confirmation about who, when, or where. So if you're gonna keep claiming how gamblers can do better under your tutelage, wise up and give us something that's real. This isn't WoV, where a bunch of unproven anonymous horn-tooters live by theory and proclamation alone, and from the safety of their arm chairs.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

This isn't WoV, where a bunch of unproven anonymous horn-tooters live by theory and proclamation alone, and from the safety of their arm chairs.

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Right. This joint is just a bunch of loud mouthed ploppies, and you're the king of them.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

This isn't WoV, where a bunch of unproven anonymous horn-tooters live by theory and proclamation alone, and from the safety of their arm chairs.

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Right. This joint is just a bunch of loud mouthed ploppies, and you're the king of them.

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Let's match the number of posters over here who post jackpot pictures along with w2g's vs. the number of cowardly anonymous armchair theory-ploppies who do the same ar your sacred weirdo-filled WoV!

Oh wait--atheists, transgenders, agnostics, foreigners and minorities just don't prove anything. They just talk and expect everyone to believe them.

Dr. Ford is likely a member over there.

Tableplay wrote: "IIRC Alan even said that he prefers holding a high card over a pair in 8/5 BP with a progressive royal that isn't astronomically large enough to justify such a hold..."

Maybe for you the size of the royal didn't justify the hold, but for me it was. I was playing for the royal, otherwise I wouldn't have been playing a 6/5 Bonus paytable. Holding a non paying pair would have been ridiculous. The progressive royal had a 6/5 paytable.

And yes, sometimes I will hold high cards instead of a non paying pair trying to go for the royal. Remember I was using FREE PLAY in the videos. I would rather take a shot at a royal with free play that I can't cash out than worry about non paying pairs improving.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Tableplay wrote: "IIRC Alan even said that he prefers holding a high card over a pair in 8/5 BP with a progressive royal that isn't astronomically large enough to justify such a hold..."

Maybe for you the size of the royal didn't justify the hold, but for me it was. I was playing for the royal, otherwise I wouldn't have been playing a 6/5 Bonus paytable. Holding a non paying pair would have been ridiculous. The progressive royal had a 6/5 paytable.

And yes, sometimes I will hold high cards instead of a non paying pair trying to go for the royal. Remember I was using FREE PLAY in the videos. I would rather take a shot at a royal with free play that I can't cash out than worry about non paying pairs improving.

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Decisions and thought processes like that are why you can't pay your son. Not that he's actually worth anything.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Tableplay wrote: "IIRC Alan even said that he prefers holding a high card over a pair in 8/5 BP with a progressive royal that isn't astronomically large enough to justify such a hold..."

Maybe for you the size of the royal didn't justify the hold, but for me it was. I was playing for the royal, otherwise I wouldn't have been playing a 6/5 Bonus paytable. Holding a non paying pair would have been ridiculous. The progressive royal had a 6/5 paytable.

And yes, sometimes I will hold high cards instead of a non paying pair trying to go for the royal. Remember I was using FREE PLAY in the videos. I would rather take a shot at a royal with free play that I can't cash out than worry about non paying pairs improving.

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Decisions and thought processes like that are why you can't pay your son. Not that he's actually worth anything.

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Just like the retards at table games with the "That's where the money's at" as they point to the high house edge side bets. Stupid is as stupid does.

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Originally Posted by Bill Yung

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by SplitFaceDisaster

I personally get a lot out of posts like yours and Mickey`s.

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Ditto. It's really weird and evil that people would actually troll these guys.

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Yeah, it takes a "special" kind of person, say, a failed teacher, or self-glorified bum, to dedicate his entire life to simplistic, casino games, to slam and berate everyone else for, supposedly, being "ploppies", to contribute nothing to society, and then to expect someone to give a shit. It's funny if nothing else.

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While Bill here has a perspective with some value, he rarely flips the perspective.

It's a "gambling" forum, first of all, so one would expect the kinds of information provided, and that the info would be deemed valuable given the subject matter. People on "gambling" forums would be expected to "give a shit."

Second, and obviously, "contributing nothing to society" is in the eye of the beholder. It's subjective. For the bulk of human history, greasing the wheels of capitalism and adhering to current 2018 cultural values would have been considered "contributing nothing" to whatever society one found oneself in. Today's culture is no smarter or better than what's gone before or what's ahead. So proclaiming today who's contributing to what is sheer hubris.

Third, I hate the use of jargon like "ploppies" because everyone can learn, despite evidence on this forum to the contrary. People with specialized knowledge should not, as a rule, poke fun at the intellectual limitations of others when it may be that the others are simply untrained or addicted.

Fourth, Bill seems motivated to decry the APs. My default take on this is that Bill, and others who "recreationally gamble (i.e. donate)" may no longer be capable of recognizing or publicly acknowledging the degree to which the casinos have trained them to behave a certain way, regardless of payback. They prefer to say it's all fun and has nothing to do with behavioral training and addiction. They are entitled to believe whatever they prefer, but they should not expect observers to agree with their self-blindness.

You APs keep criticizing those of us who are recreational gamblers. You call us donors or sometimes addicts.

I look at casino gambling as recreation and fun and to me it's on par with joining a golf club or taking a cruise and I don't play golf and I get seasick so it's better for me to be in a casino.

But what about you APs? Do you have fun? Or are you so damn tight with your money and always having to look over your shoulders that you get sick with nerves and stomach problems or worse?

I have fun, but that doesn’t mean I enjoy every second of APing. Lots of it is also not fun or doing stuff I don’t want to do, is boring, etc. If I need or want something, I buy it. I’m not gonna just drink water with my meal to save money, or drive a block down the road to save some minute amount of money on gas. But when it comes to fun when gambling, it’s much more fun to win and know I’m supposed to win overall.

It might be more fun in the moment to play some high denom machine, but if it’s -EV, it’s not that fun overall.
It’s less fun (at the time) to play some boring ass game like 5c 100-play and just grinding it out, but if it’s +EV, it’s more fun overall.

RS__ if APing means you have to do stuff that's boring or stuff you don't want to do then it can't be enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

RS__ if APing means you have to do stuff that's boring or stuff you don't want to do then it can't be enjoyable.

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You’re so wise, because it has to be either enjoyable or not enjoyable, but there’s no “both”.

I’m sure lawyers who enjoy their jobs love staying up until 3am going over lots of documents. Policemen just love to get shot at. Firefighters love it when people die from smoke inhalation. Surgeons love it when their patients die. Football players enjoy getting injuries and concussions.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

But what about you APs? Do you have fun? Or are you so damn tight with your money and always having to look over your shoulders that you get sick with nerves and stomach problems or worse?

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Quite a few things wrong with you even heading down this road Alan. You were a reporter or journalist for most of your life. Did you have fun every single day doing that? With your second, related career of hawking products for a price, do you enjoy that? And again, all the time? Every day? :confused:

Many people absolutely hate what they do for a living. Other's may enjoy what they do, to varying degrees. But even they aren't fortunate enough to always enjoy or have fun at what they are doing. APing for a living is a job. It is work. I wouldn't expect anyone to always be having fun anymore than I would expect people in other professions to always be having fun.

Let me ask you this, Alan, do you think professional golfers are always having fun? I don't play golf, but I am sure the recreational golfers, the lawyers and doctors and every other kind of occupation players out playing on the weekend, probably think, wouldn't it be great to play gold for a living and have fun every day. But what about all the practice, travel, nights in hotel rooms away from family. I have seen quite a few clips of Tiger Woods over the last decade, smashing his clubs and/or throwing his clubs into the water. Didn't look like he was having all that much fun those days. :rolleyes:

So "do you have fun" is a rather stupid question, IMO. Speaking only for myself and building off RS's answer, It isn't about fun. It is a business. It is what we do for a living. Overall (big picture), I enjoy what I do for a living, which makes me fortunate, better than many folks who hate their jobs. But that doesn't mean there aren't times...days, even weeks and sometimes months that are one hell of a lot more frustration that fun. I have mentioned on various forums that I have had 4 different 6 month periods, where I made no money playing everyday or almost everyday. :( This doesn't mean losing everyday. It is usually a significant losing period of weeks or a month followed by many weeks or months of climbing back to where you were. THAT is no fun. It would be kind of like going to work every day and come payday, you get no paycheck. :( Or worse, maybe you owe the company money.

So at the professional level, meaning this is how one pays his or her bills, it really isn't about having fun everyday. It's about money. But hopefully, you can look at the big picture and say, I enjoy what I do. I know I can. :cool:


As for recreational players. There is nothing wrong with that. I have no problem with recreational players or gamblers. Living in Vegas, unfortunately I see too many "recreational players" that gambling doesn't equate to hobby activities like joining a gold club. It equates to more like a crack cocaine habit. :(

And BTW, you are using the term AP incorrectly. In your question it seems like you are using AP as in professional AP or player. AP stands for advantage player as I think you know. You don't have to be a professional player, paying your bills by your play to be an AP. You can be a recreational player and still be an AP. I mean what is wrong with having that hobby where you play with an advantage and make a little money instead of losing money? :)

As a matter of fact, concerning blackjack card counting, I frequently say that in this day and age, I believe it works best as a part-time or supplemental type thing. Singer is correct in that card counting is a tough grind these days. Much harder than it used to be. But he is wrong that it is no longer possible. And he knows he is wrong, as he does with most other things he says....but that doesn't stop him from frequently repeating these "Singer myths". But that is another discussion.

I loved being a reporter. While I hated covering the tragedies of plane crashes and riots and fires I loved what I did.

When we heard of a plane crash my crew and I would be headed to the airport to catch a flight. We lived for it. Did we hate to see people die? Of course we did. But we wanted to be there. We wanted to work 36 hours without sleep covering riots and hurricanes. It was what we were meant to do.

Did we want to get shot at? No. But we accepted that risk. Because we wanted to be there.

But what about you APs? Where are your glamor bucks? You are always looking over your shoulders afraid you'll be found out. You have to worry the next "job" (play) won't be there. You have no one cheering you on or even appreciating what you do. There are no Emmys, no Golden Mics, no AP Of The Year Award, no Pulitzer for you guys.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

But what about you APs? Where are your glamor bucks? You are always looking over your shoulders afraid you'll be found out. You have to worry the next "job" (play) won't be there. You have no one cheering you on or even appreciating what you do. There are no Emmys, no Golden Mics, no AP Of The Year Award, no Pulitzer for you guys.

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This isn't about "glamour." We don't need a pat on the back by others. None of that stuff matters to us. The only thing that does, is making money. Awards are meaningless.

What do you mean by "glamor bucks"? I don't want to win any awards, prizes, or whatever else.

The chances of getting 'found out' are pretty low, in my experience. Majority of the time it's after (and I suspect because) we made a killing on the play. I can think of 2 where it was found out very early and we didn't make a big profit -- one was a very small loss, and the other had a small profit. But, with one, the logistics were very difficult and likely something that couldn't even be pulled off...and the other, it wasn't going to last too long, anyway.

A play isn't a "one and done" type of thing, at least most of the time. Usually they go on for months or years. Of course plays are going to get shut down, but that's not really something I worry about because it's not too likely.


Right now, I count 9 plays that I'm active in. One is likely to continue, two are likely to not continue, and the other 6 are going strong. There may be more I'm not remembering off the top of my head. And there have been a bunch in the past. There are a few others I'm looking into and will likely start soon, but gotta work out the logistics of it all first before going forward (how much can I get away with, travel expenses, fitting it in [time-wise] with other plays, risk, how much it's worth, etc.). I doubt they're all going to dry up at the same time, knock on wood. Even if they do, worst case scenario, I can move onto other things, like go back to card counting or other table-games plays. I can get more involved and do more with sports betting or go do plays more around the country.

If somehow ALL AP dries up, worst case scenario, I can go back to dealing...although I can't imagine how all AP could possibly dry up, at least not overnight.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

But what about you APs? Where are your glamor bucks? You are always looking over your shoulders afraid you'll be found out. You have to worry the next "job" (play) won't be there. You have no one cheering you on or even appreciating what you do. There are no Emmys, no Golden Mics, no AP Of The Year Award, no Pulitzer for you guys.

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Well THIS is just a very odd analogy Alan. Do you need these kind of accolades, recognition, pat on the back? :confused: Very few occupations have such things. There is no "nurse of the year" award, or computer programmer Emmy award or Banker's Hall of Fame?

Financial rewards is our rewards! It is true that we are forced to play that cat and mouse game because we are 'competing' against the casino. Some players like that extra challenge. It adds to their excitement. Not really me though. That doesn't do anything extra for me. But I do get a little extra enjoyment out of beating, winning, earning my living from an industry that I consider a predatory industry. They make the rules favoring themselves and we win. Yeah, that gives me a little extra enjoyment. Maybe THAT is my "Golden Globe". :)

Only insecure people need accolades for their performances. As long as there are casinos AP will live on. You really can't have one without the other. At least to the point that there is success.

If it's only money then why be an AP? Why not work for any big business that offers money plus benefits and security?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

If it's only money then why be an AP? Why not work for any big business that offers money plus benefits and security?

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I don't think you understand how much revenue some AP's are generating. Also, for the most part it is one of the most flexible occupations in the world. You can't even figure out how to get free juice so not many would expect you to understand. Security? You crack me up. What are you? Some kind of child that needs to be wrapped in a blanket and kept all cozy and shit.

I enjoy most facets of AP -- figuring out the best way to make a play work or beat a promotion, finding creative solutions to complicated problems, and it's something I'm passionate about. Plus, I enjoy the freedom of being self-employed -- I get to work when I want and take time off [for the most part], if there's something I don't want to work on then I don't have to work on it. No one tells me what to do. My income is proportional to the work I put in -- whereas working for a business, you only get a piece of the value you generate and the business keeps the majority. If a company pays someone $20/hr, for example, that employee is generating more than $20/hr in income for the business.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RS__

I enjoy most facets of AP -- figuring out the best way to make a play work or beat a promotion, finding creative solutions to complicated problems, and it's something I'm passionate about. Plus, I enjoy the freedom of being self-employed -- I get to work when I want and take time off [for the most part], if there's something I don't want to work on then I don't have to work on it. No one tells me what to do. My income is proportional to the work I put in -- whereas working for a business, you only get a piece of the value you generate and the business keeps the majority. If a company pays someone $20/hr, for example, that employee is generating more than $20/hr in income for the business.

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That is so wrong on so many levels.

Just about everyone who plays vp for example, knows how to maximize, strategize, and manipulate the system to get the very most out of it. It doesn't take an AP to do that or be able to do it.

Next, playing in casinos even if you win is a far cry from having a decent real job. The benefits from that far exceed anything an AP can even dream about and in addition, the benefits keep accumulating and multiplying for all the years that you work. You people have NO IDEA of the value of these benefits. You see the stock market numbers? How's a 7-figure profit sound over the last 2 years? And that's for doing absolutely nothing.

Any casino rat is just plain lazy and unmotivated. Lazy white guys for the most part. The phantom bucks they generate wouldn't even make the front page of a redietz publication.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

If it's only money then why be an AP? Why not work for any big business that offers money plus benefits and security?

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I don't think you understand how much revenue some AP's are generating. Also, for the most part it is one of the most flexible occupations in the world. You can't even figure out how to get free juice so not many would expect you to understand. Security? You crack me up. What are you? Some kind of child that needs to be wrapped in a blanket and kept all cozy and shit.

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MaxPen I should have used words such as pension, vacation pay, sick pay, paid time off, unemployment insurance, social security, and other terms instead of "security."

If AP life with its flexible schedule gives you what you need then good for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

If it's only money then why be an AP? Why not work for any big business that offers money plus benefits and security?

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I don't think you understand how much revenue some AP's are generating. Also, for the most part it is one of the most flexible occupations in the world. You can't even figure out how to get free juice so not many would expect you to understand. Security? You crack me up. What are you? Some kind of child that needs to be wrapped in a blanket and kept all cozy and shit.

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MaxPen I should have used words such as pension, vacation pay, sick pay, paid time off, unemployment insurance, social security, and other terms instead of "security."

If AP life with its flexible schedule gives you what you need then good for you.

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They know what's what Alan. The REAL advantage has been in favor of the capitalist system, which has passed these guys by like a roadrunner going by a turtle.

All this talk about 401k's from America's worst VP author is such BS. The average 65+ person with a 401k has less than a 200k balance. A lot of people do not even have that. Rob sees that as a way out of his debacle. That is why he focuses on it so much. Most successful APs at a minimum have a low 6 figure bankroll.
Many APs have other investments as well and are probably more exposed and diversified than the general population. Who is going to fair better in the long term?

A guy making $300-500 a day working for someone, who is giving them a $700 a month health policy, and another 20k or so in bebefits per year. This is at the top end of the workforce. Want more? Start your own business and good luck.

Or the AP that is capable of generating 1-5k per day if he so chooses. He/she is smart enough to take a portion of that and plan for their future. There is plenty of money to buy whatever insurances they desire to have. Again this is at the top end.

Just as you have minimum wage establishment workers you have minimum wage AP plays. It's all about what you know and how you apply yourself as to where you wind up on the spectrum. AP wins over working for corporate America any day of the week, unless you are incapable of matching your corporate income with AP due to needing a more diversified skill set.

Rob has failed at both skill sets and that it why he is so bitter and pathetic.

Also, all the talk about dollar amounts, bankroll, life roll, and other BS means very little. What matters is whether you are getting out of life what you want. Wealth is not determined by a dollar amount. It is determined by how many days you can carry yourself into the future without further output.
If you choose to live life under a bridge that is going to require a whole lot less money than a person with a home for every season. Each person is capable of being happy and content. The problems in life occur when one develops envy of another. That is where Rob comes in. He tried the AP life and failed miserably just as he failed in corporate America. He never got to where he wanted to go. Therefore, he has to find fault with everyone who has succeeded where he failed. A bitter old man living in a POS camper truck mooching Internet to fuel his contempt along the way.

MaxPen you are absolutely right about the 401k debacle.

I've been an active union member since 1972 and one thing I've warned about over and over again was that the demise of pensions, and the substitution of 401ks was going to kill off older Americans.

The reality is, most people with 401ks will exhaust their plans within about ten years of retirement, leaving them only with social security. I am one of the truly lucky ones who has a pension that will never be exhausted (as long as the union plan doesn't go bust). My own brother who is a wealthy magazine publisher worries that his own 401k will not be enough.

Back to the subject of APs. I did some estimating and if I decided to play like an AP with my limited knowledge of only a few games in the casinos, I would have very little income.

For example, currently my TOTAL free play from all casinos is only about $750 a month. That's it. $750 a month. Being realistic, if I could convert 90% of that to actual cash I would have enough just to pay for groceries for a week for an average couple. And then, being realistic, how many months would that level of free play last? Maybe two months more?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

MaxPen you are absolutely right about the 401k debacle.

I've been an active union member since 1972 and one thing I've warned about over and over again was that the demise of pensions, and the substitution of 401ks was going to kill off older Americans.

The reality is, most people with 401ks will exhaust their plans within about ten years of retirement, leaving them only with social security. I am one of the truly lucky ones who has a pension that will never be exhausted (as long as the union plan doesn't go bust). My own brother who is a wealthy magazine publisher worries that his own 401k will not be enough.

Back to the subject of APs. I did some estimating and if I decided to play like an AP with my limited knowledge of only a few games in the casinos, I would have very little income.

For example, currently my TOTAL free play from all casinos is only about $750 a month. That's it. $750 a month. Being realistic, if I could convert 90% of that to actual cash I would have enough just to pay for groceries for a week for an average couple. And then, being realistic, how many months would that level of free play last? Maybe two months more?

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Alan, you are incapable of AP'ing. It is just not in your DNA. You recognize that by quoting Mike S. in your sig line. The fact that you cannot comprehend the dice problem is proof positive AP is not for you. Look, there is nothing wrong with that. Many pension plans are going to go bust. Hopefully, yours is one of the few stable ones.
People should be asking themselves how much longer is the party going to continue. The fact of the matter is today's kids cannot buy their parents out. They can't even come close. Your kid is a prime example. Hell, he needs you for a paycheck. If you weren't a degenerate gambler you could help him. Many parents have to help their kids today. There is a big problem with that fact alone, though.
Why has the stock market done so well?
Could it be mainstream America being sold the dream of putting a few shekels per week out of their check while working to become a millionaire? Today a million won't even buy a shack in San Francisco.
Mutual funds came online in the 80's and congress made the 401k possible in 1978. People were sold the dream. All that money chasing that dream has been pumped in week after week, month after month, and year after year. By prospectus that money had to be directed into the stock market. Naturally the stock market is going to rise. What is a normal time to expect return of your investment when you buy a business? How many years did it take to get your money back in the 80's on average? How many years does it take with today's average P/E ratio? What do people who bought into the dream want? There money maybe? Don't they need to sell in order to get there money? Who is going to buy what they need to sell? Their kids that are busy slapping their junk?
Good luck to all and God Bless America.

MaxPen you are, to quote a popular line, a garden of misinformation.

First, quoting Mike S. It's unbelievable to me that he would write such a thing and the fact is I can't get past a die having six sides and only six sides. And as we rational people all figured out there are two answers to the question depending if you are the peeker or if you are the person being asked.

Now about Jason. My son has his own business. He worked for me only part time -- a couple of days every three months. He was never dependent on my paycheck. He built up his own business and had his own employees.

You keep repeating your same insults over and over again while you cowardly hide behind a screen name. Use your real name and repeat your libel you piece of shit. Better yet say it to my face and watch what happens.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

MaxPen you are, to quote a popular line, a garden of misinformation.

First, quoting Mike S. It's unbelievable to me that he would write such a thing and the fact is I can't get past a die having six sides and only six sides. And as we rational people all figured out there are two answers to the question depending if you are the peeker or if you are the person being asked.

Now about Jason. My son has his own business. He worked for me only part time -- a couple of days every three months. He was never dependent on my paycheck. He built up his own business and had his own employees.

You keep repeating your same insults over and over again while you cowardly hide behind a screen name. Use your real name and repeat your libel you piece of shit. Better yet say it to my face and watch what happens.

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Do you ever wonder what life would be like if you’d gotten enough oxygen at birth?

Being lectured by a bunch of gambling fools about what fruits the future will hold for you when you get old, based on the outcomes of actual gambling casino games, especially when combined with promotions that might be offered or not.

Imagine taking what KiwiJ says as serious experienced wisdom at his present age. The only people that could even buy into this stuff, are other gambling fools.

You couldn’t read about this much bullshit in one place at one time anywhere else on the internet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

If it's only money then why be an AP? Why not work for any big business that offers money plus benefits and security?

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Where does the guy that owns the business get his free benefits and security? Should he go apply for a job that has them?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Any casino rat is just plain lazy and unmotivated. Lazy white guys for the most part. The phantom bucks they generate wouldn't even make the front page of a redietz publication.

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It amazes me how you continue to write about yourself. You are the number one casino rat around here.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

MaxPen I should have used words such as pension, vacation pay, sick pay, paid time off, unemployment insurance, social security, and other terms instead of "security." If AP life with its flexible schedule gives you what you need then good for you.

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Where do small business owners get all those benefits? Should they go apply for a job to get them? Alan, you own a business. What kind of vacation pay, sick pay, paid time off, unemployment insurance are you getting? Whose paying for it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

I don't think you understand how much revenue some AP's are generating. Also, for the most part it is one of the most flexible occupations in the world. You can't even figure out how to get free juice so not many would expect you to understand. Security? You crack me up. What are you? Some kind of child that needs to be wrapped in a blanket and kept all cozy and shit.

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MaxPen I should have used words such as pension, vacation pay, sick pay, paid time off, unemployment insurance, social security, and other terms instead of "security."

If AP life with its flexible schedule gives you what you need then good for you.

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They know what's what Alan. The REAL advantage has been in favor of the capitalist system, which has passed these guys by like a roadrunner going by a turtle.

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Advantage gambling is the purest form of capitalism there is, dumbo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blackhole

Being lectured by a bunch of gambling fools about what fruits the future will hold for you when you get old, based on the outcomes of actual gambling casino games, especially when combined with promotions that might be offered or not.

Imagine taking what KiwiJ says as serious experienced wisdom at his present age. The only people that could even buy into this stuff, are other gambling fools.

You couldn’t read about this much bullshit in one place at one time anywhere else on the internet.

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You are at 409 consecutive negative posts. Everytime you post you break your record for consecutive negative posts. How's life as a bitter old fool?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

MaxPen I should have used words such as pension, vacation pay, sick pay, paid time off, unemployment insurance, social security, and other terms instead of "security." If AP life with its flexible schedule gives you what you need then good for you.

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Where do small business owners get all those benefits? Should they go apply for a job to get them? Alan, you own a business. What kind of vacation pay, sick pay, paid time off, unemployment insurance are you getting? Whose paying for it?

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Brace yourself mickeycrimm: my business consists of me. Only me. My benefits including pension and health insurance for life (it does cost me $60 a month) comes from a career in TV News that started in 1972. It was all paid for by employer contributions to the union health and retirement funds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blackhole

Being lectured by a bunch of gambling fools about what fruits the future will hold for you when you get old, based on the outcomes of actual gambling casino games, especially when combined with promotions that might be offered or not.

Imagine taking what KiwiJ says as serious experienced wisdom at his present age. The only people that could even buy into this stuff, are other gambling fools.

You couldn’t read about this much bullshit in one place at one time anywhere else on the internet.

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You are at 409 consecutive negative posts. Everytime you post you break your record for consecutive negative posts. How's life as a bitter old fool?

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mickey get real for once. There's a reason the economy is doing fabulous right now, and it isn't because of a bunch of AP's.

Understandable that you and others would never want to come to the realization that you'd all be far better off had you invested your time in productive jobs instead of casinos. And all that "theoretical advantage" you people claim to have? Here's a flash Einstein: get a job, accumulate pension, social security, and retirement account wealth with generous company-matching contributions, and even some corporate assembler, secretary or janitor are experiencing "advantage plays" that make what you people talk about doing seem like child's play. And that's before health insurance, health savings accounts, child care credits, on & on & on.

In other words, the big boat passed you guys by, and all you can do is blank-stare. So go ahead and get other ap's to listen to your side's nonsense, and when that world-renowned genius kew speaks try to hold back first the laughter....then the tears.