Advantage play / cheating / crime....where is the line?

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Kew, if you don't know or understand something, just ask. As far as I know, I believe I'm the foremost expert on everything about this play, because I lived it for about 65 months. If you just put your biases aside for a bit and ignore the parts about me you don't like, I believe you'll learn something.

For instance, when I mentioned a "diversion" that had nothing to do with steering others eyes away from this play. In fact, it had nothing to do with anyone but me. Doing this play was like being in a pressure cooker, and it was only because I forced myself to continue my successful play strategy storyline in my weekly article, on forums, on the radio and TV etc. It's one of those things that all happens so fast that you have to make seemingly instantaneous decisions, and I chose the easy money path. Coming up with the 5th card flip over phenomenon served its purpose beyond expectations--it created an enjoyable diversion within my mind, and it still does.

Like I said, put your biases aside and you wouldn't be struggling so much over this. I know your heart sank when axel made his post and the bottom fell out after mickey reported. Now you're discovering that what I said about the article having incorrect steps is true. Just go back and re-read MY explanation of the steps. They are true because that's how I've used them. If I can't convince you then OK. But please stop bringing up the same tired stuff of I lied about how my play strategy works and I had a bk 23 years ago and on and on, as a reason for you not wanting to believe this. You say you go on a forum to share and learn. Here's one of the biggest stories in vp history, and you seem to not want to understand it because it involves me.

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Goddam it Rob! Now I am going to be late for lunch and it is sloppy Joe day at the buffet which is my favorite. (I am a simple guy) :mad:

Rob.....I am biased. You are right. Besides all your lying about AP play, about me. Personal things. Stupid shit. Living with my mother who pays the bills. You know that is bullshit. You KNOW I am a card counter. Low level sure. That doesn't impress you. Fine. But you KNOW I support myself from card counting. (and I am proud of that btw). And yet you spew these lies about living with my mother and sugar daddies that you KNOW are BS. It's a game. But guess what, there is a truly insane little homeless guy up in Reno (banned from this forum), reprinting all this shit word for word. And that's not fair. And of course the single biggest thing is the complete lies you have repeatedly stated about my partner spouse. You have every right to not approve gay lifestyles. You don't have the right to say the things you said, about me and others spouses. I am happy you have been with your spouse for 40 some year. That just proves you have no idea the pain of losing a spouse/partner you love. You saying that shit, to me, Redietz, Arci, is like reliving that pain. You can call that all weak girly stuff. But you were wrong. No decent person behaves like that, internet forum jousting or not. So if you want to start to act like a normal person you really need to address that behavior with several people.

Second thing is this continuing claim, even today of winning what is it now $375k playing a progressive betting/stop loss system. Mathematically impossible! Axel tried to be diplomatic and say maybe your results were short-term EXTREME positive variance. Even that is not possible. Not at those numbers. If you want to be taken seriously you need to come clean with this charade.

Maybe then people can begin to take you seriously and not view everything about you through such a credibility bias. Yeah I know, you will respond calling me names, weak a silly with hurt feelings. Whatever. Rob you are a 70 year old man (belated happy birthday) who has been an internet troll, the biggest internet troll in the gambling community for 20 years (apparently). Isn't it time to stop that and be a real person?

Now I am off. I have sloppy Joes with Bacon on my mind. And I am not even going to check in while I eat. I won't let you ruin this meal.

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Think of all the saturated fat you're shoveling in--Coagulation galore!

If you think my personal insults are terrible nasty then I take that as a compliment. And if you think you've received the worst that I can give, ask mickey. Yet both he and I understand that it's all part of the forum game. You get it--you give it back. That's called ENTERTAINMENT. axel mentioned this kind of thing with me too.

I guarantee this kew: if you met me or talked to me you would like me as much as you like anyone else. But you have a filter, and that filter is taking your anonymous forum life too seriously. I don't doubt you play blackjack, and for whatever limits isn't my business. And neither do I have any reason at all to be posting lies about anything, esp. since I decided to release this story about me. If you can't accept my strategy made me money then I won't freak out over it. Nothing you say will ever convince me that a meaningful two-table count can occur by any stretch either. So be cool with that.

I would have no problem doing this without a worry about being observed. I would keep an eye out though for sure. I wouldn't take the taxable route. Instead I would have a cash business on the side and funnel any money I wanted to legitimize thru that.

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Originally Posted by Mission146

Dishonest-Opinion (What's dishonest? Who are you lying to? Shit, Kane even tried to tell the attendant the first time and the attendant just laughed it off. The machine is saying, "Jackpot," not me.)

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Mission, I’m a little late to the game on this one, so I definitely don’t know the whole story like the rest of you. I’m going mostly on what I read in the wire.com article. You seem like a pretty sharp person. Do you really believe all the statements Kane made in this article? Do you really think Kane tried to tell the attendant about the glitch the first time? These are the same guys that tried to exploit it at the same casino hitting seven jackpots in an hour and half. It’s shocking they got away with it for as long as they did.

Here’s what I think happened with this play by reading between the lines. Kane was able to get one of these machines in his home in 2006. He claims it was because he was addicted to this game, but the more likely reason was probably so he could understand and exploit it. The article said he even had technicians service it. I expect this was done so he could understood the inner workings of this machine.

Do I think he or Ron just happened to get lucky and hit on this play? No. I think Kane having this machine in his house for several years probably played a huge role in him finally figuring out how to exploit it.

Obviously, if I am right and this is what happened, Kane is not going to say this in an article. He’s sticking to the story that he just happened to push a couple buttons and by random chance come upon this play. This story gives him a better chance of not serving jail time.

Everybody, please reread this article but when you do use some common sense and read between the lines. I think you’ll see there is more to it than what appears after your first reading.

Explain why you think 'Holecarding' isn't cheating and this VP exploit is.

Holecarding is taking advantage of flawed dealer mechanics. To the point where you can often guarantee a win. Was the game designed so you could see the dealer hole card? Of course not. Is that playing fair with the casino? Probably not. If you were a moral person you should point it out to the pit boss, right? Is it cheating or illegal? Hell no. It's the Casino's responsibility to make sure their dealers aren't exposing cards.

The VP exploit is taking advantage of a flawed program (just like the flawed dealer above) To the point where you can often guarantee a win. Was the game designed so you could guarantee a win at a level you weren't playing? Of course not. Is that playing fair with the casino? Probably not. If you were a moral person, you should point it out to the slot manager, right? Is it cheating or illegal? Hell no. It's the Casino and Game Manufacturer's responsibility to deploy video poker machines that aren't overpaying their customers.

Nestor was the one that WIRED actually talked to, Kane refused to say anything about it.

I tend to believe that Kane may have tried to tell the attendant about the glitch the first time for a few reasons:

1.) Maybe he thought taking it would somehow be illegal.

2.) He probably thought it was some kind of one-off glitch and it may not have occurred to him immediately that it could be repeatable. When you combine that possibility with #1, I think that may make him more likely to say something about it.

3.) He might not have been, "Thinking on his toes," and was just so surprised about the whole thing (wouldn't you be?) that he just kind of automatically told the guy.

There's probably a lot that went on behind the scenes on this one with Nestor and Kane, so we're not really in a position to argue anything that has been stated. The article probably doesn't include every minute-to-minute detail, either. I wouldn't be surprised if Kane had consulted with an attorney to determine whether or not the event in question was legal, perhaps even the very attorney that ended up representing him when they attempted to bring federal charges.

Maybe the machine in his house did play a role in the whole thing, but maybe not. If you choose to believe the article, the two did not initially realize that it had to be tied to the double-up function, that could be cover, but I don't see why you would be giving a cover story well after the fact. According to the story, it was during live play that they realized the double up function was key to the whole thing. Even then, the story says Kane was not initially concerned when Fremont turned off the double-up function and it was only then that he realized that was a necessary component.

If there's a criminal act at all, (and the federal prosecutors eventually believed not) it would all be tied to accepting a jackpot of an amount that you were not entitled to based on the denomination you were playing. They also acknowledge taking jackpots on hands that they were not even the ones to hit. I tend to doubt that whether it was discovered at home or in the casino would really change the legality of it either way.

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

I would have no problem doing this without a worry about being observed. I would keep an eye out though for sure. I wouldn't take the taxable route. Instead I would have a cash business on the side and funnel any money I wanted to legitimize thru that.

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I think you could just start off the first month doing it under the taxable amounts and load up on cash. Then you could take some of that money and become an established high roller by playing normal hitting jackpots at a few locations. you would note the day and times. You would go back the same days and times hoping the same employees were there hopping they wouldn't even blink because they already know this isn't anything unusual about you and your play hitting jackpots. That's when I would mix some big jackpots in using the double up bug. I would then go back to the under taxable jackpots. I would repeat that over and over. The one problem with that. Once you take a taxable, they have your name. Doing it the non taxable way, there is a very good chance they wouldn't even know you had ever played the bug. They would have to catch you in the act or be able to go back to surveillance. Even then, they would only have your picture.

I still think it might be better to just go under the taxable amounts. Remember you have no clue how long something like this will last. Its easy to say what we would have done after the fact.

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Originally Posted by Mission146

Nestor was the one that WIRED actually talked to, Kane refused to say anything about it.

I tend to believe that Kane may have tried to tell the attendant about the glitch the first time for a few reasons:

1.) Maybe he thought taking it would somehow be illegal.

2.) He probably thought it was some kind of one-off glitch and it may not have occurred to him immediately that it could be repeatable. When you combine that possibility with #1, I think that may make him more likely to say something about it.

3.) He might not have been, "Thinking on his toes," and was just so surprised about the whole thing (wouldn't you be?) that he just kind of automatically told the guy.

There's probably a lot that went on behind the scenes on this one with Nestor and Kane, so we're not really in a position to argue anything that has been stated. The article probably doesn't include every minute-to-minute detail, either. I wouldn't be surprised if Kane had consulted with an attorney to determine whether or not the event in question was legal, perhaps even the very attorney that ended up representing him when they attempted to bring federal charges.

Maybe the machine in his house did play a role in the whole thing, but maybe not. If you choose to believe the article, the two did not initially realize that it had to be tied to the double-up function, that could be cover, but I don't see why you would be giving a cover story well after the fact. According to the story, it was during live play that they realized the double up function was key to the whole thing. Even then, the story says Kane was not initially concerned when Fremont turned off the double-up function and it was only then that he realized that was a necessary component.

If there's a criminal act at all, (and the federal prosecutors eventually believed not) it would all be tied to accepting a jackpot of an amount that you were not entitled to based on the denomination you were playing. They also acknowledge taking jackpots on hands that they were not even the ones to hit. I tend to doubt that whether it was discovered at home or in the casino would really change the legality of it either way.

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I bought two machines to research for something like this at home also back then- one in 2000, which broke down, and the second in 2003, which I sold shortly after I made the discovery. But neither machine had the glitch (I checked only the second machine for it after I found the flaw in a casino) which made those crummy investments after all.

Didn't the article say something about Kane having too much to drink at the downtown casino where it all began? Isn't that how he stumbled onto this?

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Originally Posted by unowme

Explain why you think 'Holecarding' isn't cheating and this VP exploit is.

Holecarding is taking advantage of flawed dealer mechanics. To the point where you can often guarantee a win. Was the game designed so you could see the dealer hole card? Of course not. Is that playing fair with the casino? Probably not. If you were a moral person you should point it out to the pit boss, right? Is it cheating or illegal? Hell no. It's the Casino's responsibility to make sure their dealers aren't exposing cards.

The VP exploit is taking advantage of a flawed program (just like the flawed dealer above) To the point where you can often guarantee a win. Was the game designed so you could guarantee a win at a level you weren't playing? Of course not. Is that playing fair with the casino? Probably not. If you were a moral person, you should point it out to the slot manager, right? Is it cheating or illegal? Hell no. It's the Casino and Game Manufacturer's responsibility to deploy video poker machines that aren't overpaying their customers.

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100% agree.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

100% agree.

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Ok, now I understand what really happened at Casino Fandango in Carson to you. The place is normally heat free as I wrote in the post you replied to below based on extensive personal experience at the place. But suddenly you are getting heat and getting banned from there (along with berating me for pointing this out). I'm thinking the $8K jackpot you got at Fandango that you posted in the "Big Wins and Jackpots" thread was a double up bug made jackpot.
https://vegascasinotalk.com/forum/sh...ll=1#post67466

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

I would have no problem doing this without a worry about being observed. I would keep an eye out though for sure. I wouldn't take the taxable route. Instead I would have a cash business on the side and funnel any money I wanted to legitimize thru that.

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I think you could just start off the first month doing it under the taxable amounts and load up on cash. Then you could take some of that money and become an established high roller by playing normal hitting jackpots at a few locations. you would note the day and times. You would go back the same days and times hoping the same employees were there hopping they wouldn't even blink because they already know this isn't anything unusual about you and your play hitting jackpots. That's when I would mix some big jackpots in using the double up bug. I would then go back to the under taxable jackpots. I would repeat that over and over. The one problem with that. Once you take a taxable, they have your name. Doing it the non taxable way, there is a very good chance they wouldn't even know you had ever played the bug. They would have to catch you in the act or be able to go back to surveillance. Even then, they would only have your picture.

I still think it might be better to just go under the taxable amounts. Remember you have no clue how long something like this will last. Its easy to say what we would have done after the fact.

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I sure hope you guys find and play one or more of these machines, no matter how you choose to do it. I'd really like some others to experience what I did. To a vp player, it is the absolute ultimate. They've got to be out there. Like I've said, I found two since at Az. Indian casinos 3-1/2 years ago, and I didn't collect on either and just walked away kind of surprised that my belief was true about not all machines could possibly have been updated. Both low limits, one of them pennies thru 20c. Consistent but pitiful 6/5 pay tables on DDBP on that one.

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Originally Posted by tableplay

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

100% agree.

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Ok, now I understand what really happened at Casino Fandango in Carson to you. The place is normally heat free as I wrote in the post you replied to below based on extensive personal experience at the place. But suddenly you are getting heat and getting banned from there (along with berating me for pointing this out). I'm thinking the $8K jackpot you got at Fandango that you posted in the "Big Wins and Jackpots" thread was a double up bug made jackpot.
https://vegascasinotalk.com/forum/sh...ll=1#post67466

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No that had nothing to do with this play--it was too late by years. And I didn't get heat for running around naked in Ti Amo either. I was just very lucky there. However, they were a regular stop of mine in the years I was making this play.

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Originally Posted by Mission146

If there's a criminal act at all, (and the federal prosecutors eventually believed not) it would all be tied to accepting a jackpot of an amount that you were not entitled to based on the denomination you were playing.

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If a Casino craps dealer consistently overpays on an odds bet and you keep on betting it knowing you weren't entitled to it, did you commit a criminal act or is it the Casino's fault for overpaying you?

Do I know 100% for sure that Rob put this play down? No. Do I think it is highly likely? Yes.

I can understand the zeal of some here in going after Rob. He certainly did them no favors.But in condemning him are they possibly living in glass houses? Is it morally right or wrong to count or hole card against casino policy? I'm not talking about whether it's legal or not. I'm talking about violating house policy. Another issue is cutting into the tax base, is that morally right or wrong? Just some food for thought.

Mission, like you said we’ll never know the whole story, but it does seem a little suspicious to me that Kane owned his own machine 3 years before he stumbled on this play. He got the machine in his house in 2006 and had it serviced by technicians who understand these machines...and then in 2009 he happened to stumble on this play.


Only Kane and Nestor know what really happened. But when I read their version of what happened it didn’t all add up. At least, it didn’t to me.

Deleted, misinterpreted the question.

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Originally Posted by unowme

If a Casino craps dealer consistently overpays on an odds bet and you keep on betting it knowing you weren't entitled to it, did you commit a criminal act or is it the Casino's fault for overpaying you?

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Right, and the prosecutors ultimately decided anything they might have to charge them on would be shaky. There's obviously no collusion between player and casino on that one. Like I said, whether or not the act of accepting the jackpot is legal, I would think, would be the only meaningful legal question...not how it was discovered.

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Originally Posted by BoSox

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Who told you this? This is an absolute myth. You know what the absolute top thing surveillance is looking at? Employee theft!. Suspicious and/or higher limit machine wins would probably be second. Card counting is actually pretty low priority, unless a card counter or team is playing fairly high amounts and camping out.

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Mission is correct. That surveillance is more concerned with employee theft than AP is both true and irrelevant.

Card counting is going to be at the top of the list of AP they look for. Machine bugs or "suspicious machine wins" are not even on the list.

They may well observe handpays but that would be to look for employee theft or error. They *might* look for.multicarding if they have recently been told to crack down.

There is no chance they are looking for undiagnosed machine glitches. These things are incalculably rare.

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You have it backwards on who is correct.

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Mission's premise was correct. KewlJ's counter about employee theft was also correct but irrelevant. KewlJ's major premise that surveillance is more concerned with "suspicious machine jackpots" or however it was put than with card counting is wrong.

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

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Originally Posted by BoSox

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Originally Posted by smurgerburger

Mission is correct. That surveillance is more concerned with employee theft than AP is both true and irrelevant.

Card counting is going to be at the top of the list of AP they look for. Machine bugs or "suspicious machine wins" are not even on the list.

They may well observe handpays but that would be to look for employee theft or error. They *might* look for.multicarding if they have recently been told to crack down.

There is no chance they are looking for undiagnosed machine glitches. These things are incalculably rare.

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You have it backwards on who is correct.

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Mission's premise was correct. KewlJ's counter about employee theft was also correct but irrelevant. KewlJ's major premise that surveillance is more concerned with "suspicious machine jackpots" or however it was put than with card counting is wrong.

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And I still think we need a translator for Bosox.

Unowme, you asked a question earlier about hole carding and why someone would thing differently about that. Was that directed at me because it wasn't clear who you were asking.

Mission: prosecutors chose not to prosecute and drop charges everyday. It NEVER means there was no crime. It means the are not confident they can make their case and get a conviction.

This being a new kind of case the feds probably made some mistakes that lead to some of the pre-trial motions going against them which weakened their chance of winning. The Feds jumped in and took over this case. That was probably a bad move. They should have let the state's go first and if the same mistakes and pretrial ruling went against them, the Feds could have had a second crack. (Which wouldn,t be double jeopardy). But jumping in they had only one chance and when mistakes were made and pretrial motions went against them....they were done.

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Originally Posted by kewlJ

Mission: prosecutors chose not to prosecute and drop charges everyday. It NEVER means there was no crime. It means the are not confident they can make their case and get a conviction.

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It can definitely mean that they decided a crime had not been committed, or that the matter was effectively decided for them by a judge's ruling that they chose not to appeal. Of course it can mean many other things as well.

Here's the judge's grant of the defendants' motion to dismiss: http://www.volokh.com/wp-content/upl...mmendation.pdf.

The judge determined that they did not commit a crime under Computer Fraud And Abuse Act, which is the federal law they were charged under. It looks like the main reason is that video poker machines are not "protected computers" which would place certain misuses of them under federal jurisdiction.

I don't know if there are parallel state statutes that could have been applied by state prosecutors but judging from the fact that no state prosecutors went after them there probably aren't.