Caesars vs. MGM

In another thread Rob Singer wrote:

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

I'm thinking Alan is actually doing his best to shake CET from his system, and for a gambler switching over to MGM is the right thing to be doing. I've heard from MANY players that they get far better benefits from that club than they got at CET or Wynn.

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Let me break down the pros and cons for you the way I see it between Caesars (Caesars Palace) and MGM (Bellagio).

CAESARS PALACE -- LIKES
Entertainment including shows. They have the acts I want to see, and keep seeing. What can I say, I'm a Celine fan. I've seen her show 13 times now.
Craps. They just added the Small, Tall, All bets which I love.
Video Poker. There is 8/5 Bonus.
Rooms. My favorite for comfort and features.
Dining. I don't like all the restaurants, but the ones I like best are here.
Free movies. This is one of my favorite perks with Total Rewards -- the free movies I get as a 7 Stars.

CAESARS PALACE -- DON'T LIKES
The crowd. The crowd has gotten younger (yes, I've gotten older) and louder and rougher.
Offers. They've been poor for more than a year.
Craps. They have some new dealers and new floormen who just aren't "into the game" the way the "old guys" were. Some of the new dealers don't really care at all about the players or the game.
No RFB. I have to earn comps to pay for meals and frankly the Total Rewards program is not very generous with comp points. If I don't have an offer for dining credits the Reward Credits I earn wouldn't even cover one nice restaurant meal. For example, at Old Homestead without booze, the check came to $300. I could play a full weekend at Caesars and wouldn't earn $300 in comps to cover that.

BELLAGIO -- LIKES
Offers. They started strong with large free play amounts. I am also RFB and on my previous visits my daily food credit was as much as $800 -- and that's a lot per day.
Craps. I like their tables and the crews are professional and they had the Small, Tall, All bets before Caesars.
The crowd. Quieter, older. More Europeans who are more refined than Americans and cordial.

BELLAGIO -- DON'T LIKES
Rooms. They're not as nice as Caesars. They're close to Caesars but missing a few things. Bathrooms are not set up as well. Love the view of the fountains but that lasts five minutes.
Entertainment. Nothing at Bellagio I want to see and frankly I'm not interested in what they have had so far at other MGM properties.
Video poker. I did find lower level 8/5 Bonus but most of the games are 7/5.
No free movies. I have to pay for the movies at Bellagio and so far comps have covered those charges. But I hate to see $13.99 appear on my bill several times in a trip.

My first question is whether hosts no longer swing show tickets for you at competing properties. Back in the day, with non-monopolies, if you asked hard enough, your host would do a quid quo pro with hosts from competitors for top show tickets. Not done any longer, eh?

Second question is why not play all of your craps at Bellagio and all of your vp at Caesars, then?

Good questions. I haven't asked any host about shows at other companies' resorts.

I guess I could keep my play at craps at Bellagio and my play at Caesars to video poker -- but I don't play enough to keep either property happy. Let's say I stay at Bellagio and do my VP play at Caesars -- my host at Bellagio wouldn't be happy. And if I stay at Caesars and play craps at Bellagio my host at Caesars wouldn't be happy.

I am not a high roller. I have a fixed budget.

There is something inherently wrong if you're gambling to keep a host happy.

This raises some interesting questions. Maybe Dan could contact an MGM version of himself to try to assemble the info. Does one or the other company value table games theo over vp theo or vice versa? Is there an inherent preference by either monopoly or by the two properties named here, Bellagio and CP? If we got a hint that there was a bias one way or the other, then the solution is evident, host aside.

My suspicion, which could be completely wrong, is that CP -- with its downgrading of craps personnel and younger crowd, values the vp players more. Bellagio may value table players more.

Alan, you were favorably rated right off the bat at Bellagio -- did you play more craps or vp there your initial couple of visits?

I have heard similar comments from friends -- they get better comps by a large margin from other companies, but the idea of fronting room costs makes them do accounting as part of their trip preparation, and nobody gambling at these monopolies really wants to do bald faced accounting before a recreational trip. The reality becomes a spoiler.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

There is something inherently wrong if you're gambling to keep a host happy.

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You're right. And I don't play for comps and I certainly don't play to make a host happy. But the reality is offers are based on play and if I spread my play around the offers will go away.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

There is something inherently wrong if you're gambling to keep a host happy.

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Maybe she's really hot.

(Note: One of my New Year's resolutions is to be as sexist as humanly possible.)

My experience has been that table game players are never highly rated. Table bets are not made as rapidly as slot and VP bets.

Just look at your comps and points and you'll see that.

Hi Alan:

I do not fundamentally disagree with your points in comparing the two properties, but I have my own twists. For context I have been Seven Stars at CET for several years and only took two trips at Bellagio and am a significant MLife Platinum so mileage may vary:

Bellagio over Ceasars Palace:

* Hosts have real power and you do not need to burn up your Express Credits before any comps can be applied by your hosts.

*Point Play. In addition to any offers, when you play machines you get point play that you can convert to free play.

* MGM properties have Cirque de Soliel shows which are my family's favorites.

* Check in lounge. The Bellagio Chairman's Lounge is not only a place to check in but is a great place to relax and help yourself to soft drinks, juice, light snacks ect. Ceasars Diamond check in is not a nice place to linger.


Ceasars Palace over Bellagio:

* Seven Stars (and usually Diamond) lines segmentation more clear. There are clearly separate lines for Cashiers and coffee shop and buffet.

*Qua Spa is the best spa I have used. The three temperature pools and saunas are free for Seven Stars and a companion.

*Airfare offers. At Level 2 Diamond I can get $750 airfare and $1200 at Seven Stars for trips, plus 7 Stars has a $500 folio credit.

*Two free shows per month at Diamond. These tend to be second tier shows but nice if you set your expectations.

* CET has much better geographical sweep and easier to visit places.

* Free 7 Stars movies. Emphatic agreement with you on free unlimited in-room movies being a great benefit.

*Nicer, larger, newer rooms at new CP towers.

* Accessible food court near forum for a quick bite.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

You're right. And I don't play for comps and I certainly don't play to make a host happy. But the reality is offers are based on play and if I spread my play around the offers will go away.

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So you're playing for "offers" then. My mistake.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

So you're playing for "offers" then. My mistake.

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No I don't play for offers nor do I play for comps. I was simply pointing out that if my play is split between two casinos my offers and comps will suffer.

Fab,

That CP spa is really something. It was great. I agree with you -- would rather Cirque shows than CET headliners, although I do like the CET second tier shows.

Have you been in the Diamond Lounge at Paris? I thought it was quite nice. A friend took me into it. I have never been in the CP Diamond Lounge. Are they similar, in your opinion?

The more I listen to you guys, the more I think if I were playing table games or vp at your level, I would stay off strip and play at the MGM properties and hoard their amenities. Top flight rooms don't do it for me versus "normal" rooms. I've been in some great suites, but if you're actually gambling, as opposed to a "date trip," I'd take the regular room and use the comp clout on shows and food.

Let me correct the above: I would never play vp at MGM, and not at CP unless 9/6 is sitting there. Self-abuse is not my bag.

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Originally Posted by redietz

Fab,

That CP spa is really something. It was great. I agree with you -- would rather Cirque shows than CET headliners, although I do like the CET second tier shows.

Have you been in the Diamond Lounge at Paris? I thought it was quite nice. A friend took me into it. I have never been in the CP Diamond Lounge. Are they similar, in your opinion?

The more I listen to you guys, the more I think if I were playing table games or vp at your level, I would stay off strip and play at the MGM properties and hoard their amenities. Top flight rooms don't do it for me versus "normal" rooms. I've been in some great suites, but if you're actually gambling, as opposed to a "date trip," I'd take the regular room and use the comp clout on shows and food.

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Hi Redietz:

I have not been to the Diamond Lounge at Paris. I do not drink alcohol much and I see the Diamond lounges as rooms that essentially serve alcohol so not much interest for me or my posse (usually consisting of family). Also when I have been to Ceasars Palace Diamond Lounge, it was not an "easy in, easy out" kind of vibe so not relaxing to me. To me the two best Diamond Lounges I have been too is either Lake Tahoe where there is a magnificent view, or the "Palm Room" in New Orleans where there is great cooked to order appetizers served at your table.

I agree with you that I would prefer to have a "nice" standard room with comps and free play, than a suite that would burn up other amenities.

I have never considered staying off strip then going to play at an Mlife place to hoard amenities (Express comps and point play), but think it may make sense if you enjoy playing at Mlife casinos. I know that CET worships at the altar of the Average Daily Theorectical but I would be curious of dipping ones toe into Mlife (without staying there) would hurt one's offers.

FAB

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BELLAGIO -- DON'T LIKES
Video poker. I did find lower level 8/5 Bonus but most of the games are 7/5.

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If your favorite is $5 8/5 Bonus, there is a bank outside of the high limit room (the casino floor is already pretty much high limit to the average person)
If your favorite is $2 8/5 Bonus, you have to find a Spin Poker in the high limit room and play just 1 line to simulate single line

The part that anyone with a brain should like about MGM over TR is the playback rewards, is that the player gets BOTH expressplay (freeplay on the machine) and expresscomp (resort credit) rather than just Reward Credits (even less if converted into freeplay)

Video Poker Player gets both 0.10% of their coin in expressplay and 0.10% in expresscomp to start off. It scales to 0.13% each at the Platinum level (Alan should get this in just 2 visits or even 1), and caps off at 0.14% each if a player gets private invitation to NOIR. The instant rebates is more than double of TR. A slot player will get 3 folds that rate.

Also you can buy your way into higher status in mLife by not even gambling at 25 tier points per dollar spent. Pay for hotel stay during CES and you will have enough points to get into Gold.

So for those reasons, MGM is a winner to me.

Some of you might wonder why I stick with CET despite their constant stream of fail, neglect, and laughable incompetence.

It's because their Seven Stars program is far superior to MLife's Noir.

The big difference is that Seven Stars guarantees you a bunch of free things, while Noir does not.

Here is my breakdown of both programs: http://pokerfraudalert.com/forum/sho...s-vs-MGM-Mlife


Now, it's true that MGM gives better offers and better RFB, but as far as guaranteed benefits go, TR is superior.

There is nothing guaranteed a with company bankruptcy.

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Originally Posted by jbjb

There is nothing guaranteed a with company bankruptcy.

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There's also no guarantee that you or I will wake up tomorrow after going to sleep.

I don't see it likely that CET will stiff people on their TR benefits as a way to save money. They see their TR program as their greatest asset, and screwing people with promised benefits would be a huge blow to the value of that program.

Or, simply put, CET is hoping that its still-popular TR program will be a big factor in helping pull them out of the mud. The last thing they're going to do is chop off the legs of the thing they hope can rescue them.

Oh I'm not saying they would screw people intentionally, especially under normal circumstances. But with this bankruptcy, you just never know.

I don't think Caesars will stiff anyone on Total Rewards benefits either -- but there are other ways to save a dime. We've already seen it. I no longer consider Caesars Palace to be a luxury hotel. "Luxury" went out when they stopped delivering the chocolates and boxes of nuts to new guests arriving in their rooms, when they cut out the bathrobes in the rooms, when they eliminated the shower gel and the slippers, and they even eliminated the chocolate coins with turndown service. They've certainly cut down on free play offers. And they've cut down on the values of promotions.

Alpax you might have missed the other thread where I said I am a high level Platinum with MLife and pretty close to Noir. I'd really like to know where those $5 8/5 Bonus machines are supposed to be? If that's something you found online but didn't see it for yourself I would be very skeptical that they exist. About two months ago another forum member and I drove up to Bellagio to play for a few hours and he tried hard to find the better paying VP games that were listed on a website but he couldn't find them. Those website lists can become out of date pretty quickly.

There are different casino companies with different strengths and each will appeal to a certain group of players.

Fab I didn't mention the VIP check-in at Bellagio with the bar and the food because I'm not one to sit around in a setting like that. Others do enjoy that. And, I haven't been in a Diamond lounge in years EXCEPT when I needed to use a computer.

Hi Alan:

I am not sure that this effects a single man like you but a GREAT Mlife advantage over CET Total Rewards for my wife and I is that Mlife lets us have fully linked accounts.

Either one of us are allowed to use our offers for hotel check-ins, charge on Express comps, free play, ect on our combined action. By way of example, my wife checked into Bellagio on an offer on a Thursday night and played in a slot tournament starting on Friday morning at a time when I could not arrive until Saturday, but we do not need to use contortions to get her to check-in ahead of my arrival. I also do not have to look over my shoulder when both of us play on one card like in Total Rewards.

In fact, my host at Bellagio was my host at Venetian and then at Ceasars Palace and he told me that MLife is the only players system he currently knows that have seamless combination for couples.

FAB

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Some of you might wonder why I stick with CET despite their constant stream of fail, neglect, and laughable incompetence.

It's because their Seven Stars program is far superior to MLife's Noir.

The big difference is that Seven Stars guarantees you a bunch of free things, while Noir does not.

Here is my breakdown of both programs: http://pokerfraudalert.com/forum/sho...s-vs-MGM-Mlife


Now, it's true that MGM gives better offers and better RFB, but as far as guaranteed benefits go, TR is superior.

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Hi Dan:

I agree with you that Seven Stars has better guaranteed benefits over Mlife. It makes particular sense given your use of CET rooms to attend Poker events. However, I believe we both agree that after one hits the Seven Stars plateau, there is no good reason to continue to play at CET casinos for the rest of the year. Therefore, it also makes some sense to give some action to MLife to get better offers and RFB. That said, most of the amenities at Mlife are available even though you do not reach NOIR.

FAB

FAB Caesars used to have joint accounts until the company got tired of the subpoenas in divorce actions to provide gambling data and to split comps and points. The easy way out was just to have separate accounts. There were a couple of big divorces which caused a lot of trouble. I remember when they made that decision. It was about the same time Caesars dropped Cashback rebates.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

FAB Caesars used to have joint accounts until the company got tired of the subpoenas in divorce actions to provide gambling data and to split comps and points. The easy way out was just to have separate accounts. There were a couple of big divorces which caused a lot of trouble. I remember when they made that decision. It was about the same time Caesars dropped Cashback rebates.

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If that were a real problem, I would think that could be solved if Total Rewards would have a annual statement in fine print, and upon getting a card, warning all linked members that all comps and points are totally accessible to both parties except upon service to CET of legal notice of a divorce or legal separation in which case they are divided equally. Not that hard if all linked members have signed as a condition of linking.

When did Ceasars drop cashback? Was it still owned by Park Place?

FAB

All of these changes were made pre Harrahs.

I wouldn't be surprised if MGM has been tied up in some high roller divorces.

Yes, DIVORCES and PREMATURE DEATH are very common among married couples who gamble. We've got a rather good look at that right here, and we're only getting a glimpse of the tip of the iceberg. There are also an unusual number of loner drifters with no life who gamble.

Funny how I came along and never had any of those curses.

So let's hear the cheers!

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

Yes, DIVORCES and PREMATURE DEATH are very common among married couples who gamble. We've got a rather good look at that right here, and we're only getting a glimpse of the tip of the iceberg. There are also an unusual number of loner drifters with no life who gamble.

Funny how I came along and never had any of those curses.

So let's hear the cheers!

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What would a thread be without Rob Singer telling us he is not only the world's greatest authority, but also the world's greatest? Okay Rob, back into your room.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

BELLAGIO -- LIKES
The crowd. Quieter, older. More Europeans who are more refined than Americans and cordial.

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Hmmm. These the same Europeans who don't wait for the elevator to empty and rudely storm in? Experienced this at Paris and Bellagio. I've seen them storm past the elderly and those in wheelchairs. They do this with their kids in tow too.

As an American, I wait for the elevator to empty and then I enter. I guess that makes me unrefined. :p

I will say that I enjoy hanging out at Bellagio.:cool: I am fairly comfortable anywhere, but the better ambiance and crowd makes any stay more enjoyable.

When I use any CET benefit, e.g., Diamond Lounge, Qua Spa, Diamond Show, I run afoul of CET ADT, so I try to play on such days.

Does anyone know if I stay at another hotel but use MLife express comps, will I similarly hurt my chances at comps and offers at Bellagio? After all, I already earned those express comps.

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Originally Posted by FABismonte

Does anyone know if I stay at another hotel but use MLife express comps, will I similarly hurt my chances at comps and offers at Bellagio? After all, I already earned those express comps.

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Good question. It boils down to this: are offers based on company wide play, or are they based on individual casino/resort play?

I am going to guess that as long as you play at an MLife casino your "company offers" will be the same. But if you have a host at Bellagio who gives you offers outside of or in addition to company offers, your play at another MLife casino will not help your Bellagio host and that might mean less "help" from him in the future. Again, that's my guess.

MGM much better