For those that AP these, what are your minimum starting numbers on the grid?
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For those that AP these, what are your minimum starting numbers on the grid?
Is this with the other two meters at reset values or being treated as zeros?
This is Barney,
I have not seen such a device but would it not be similar to the Harley slut machine device where the break points are independent of bet level given constant reel frequency and proportional payback for each betting level?
There are a couple of reasons this is not so. The biggest is that instead of getting awarded a mini/maxi/mega bonus round directly on the reels you win a chance to spin the wheel. The wheel gives you a chance to win the 2x/3x/4x bonus rounds but also varying numbers of 1x bonus games. The number of 1x bonus games you can win on the wheel varies with the bet level, and at the highest denomination you can only win 2x/3x/4x.
Watch someone play until they get a bonus round on YouTube and you'll see what I mean.
So at the very least the frequency of 2x rounds is far higher at the highest bet level, but also it seems likely that 3x and 4x frequencies get at least a little higher as you go up in bet level.
Also it's possible the bonus reels are lowered in value as you increase your bet in order to offset the inflated number of bonus games (it's something like 8 or 10 at .75 vs 25 at 2.50) and the higher frequency of 2x and 3x).
Boy, did I step in it. You clearly asked the question about starting numbers like you were a novice on the game. You were obviously setting me up. I had no idea you are an expert on the game. Please, could you share your expertise with us? Here are some questions you should have no problem answering. Let's not muddy it up by discussing all the bet levels at the same time. They all have different configurations. These questions are for the 75 level.
1. What is the combined payback percentage for the main game plus 1X freespins?
2. What is the average number of spins for catching the wheel in the main game?
3. What is the average number of spins of the wheel to catch the 2X?
4. What is the average value of a banked 2X freespin? How many units is each spin worth?
5. What is the average number of spins of the wheel to catch the 3X?
6. What is the average value of a banked 3X freespin?
7. What is the average number of spins of the wheel to catch the 4X?
8. What is the average value of a banked 4X freespin.
9. What is the overall payback percentage of the game?
10. How many sockpuppets do you have?
Thank you so much in advance for sharing your expertise with us. We eagerly await your learned answers.
Been playing any bottom at 36 if middle at least 28 or higher and 28 on the bottom for the max coin if the middle is at least 24(since all wheels are 2x-3x-4x)
The only stats keep are times played W-L and profits with biggest loss and biggest win noted, to date those are as follows.
36-8 +$2,484 with biggest win $843 and biggest loss $230 in a very, very small sampling.
Not big into these as other machines and that was the reason for inquiry thinking possibly could play these at lower starting points.
Travel all over Nevada and California and the past two weeks have had only one play using my criteria above.
Piggy Banker, in your last post you accidentally forgot to answer any of my questions. I gave them a bump to jog your memory. Thank you for any help you can give on these various questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeycrimm;89397[/QUOTE
I have no clue as I've only played the game a little bit without tracking anything. I have never seen the game with the numbers you claim are needed for it to be a play. IIRC
I don't think there is much value to be found in this game but could be wrong. I'd like to guess at all your questions. Let me know if I'm close.
1. 50%
2. 125
3. 1000
4. 1.5x
5. 2000
6. 2.5x
7. 5000
8. 2x
9. 85%
10. At least 5
Don't know either, hopefully someone lists some parameters they play at other than what I've posted, with my parameters, expecting a play about once every 13 days, :cool:
Sorry for late response, this site allows me only 1-5 posts per day.
Thanks, Max, for giving me a lot of work to do here. It's really made my day. Not!
First, all of the bet levels are their own animals. It's a difference like night and day between the 75 level and the 400 level. Each bet level is tracked separately. I have a big database on the 75 level as it it where the bulk of my stats come from because that is the level that gets most of the action from the rec players. So the answers here all apply to the 75 level.
1. 33K spins tracked on the main game and 1X freespins combined. Return is 62.8%.
2. 34K spins tracked. Average to catch wheel = 146.42
3. Wheels to date, 378. Wheel spins that produced the 2X = 92. Avg. 4.11 spins per 2X.
4. I attribute all of the payback in the freespins to the initial number of games awarded. The extra freespins awarded are part of the value of the initial freespins awarded. This keeps it simple. If I''m awarded 47 freespins on the 2X and wind up with 57 spins that payed 220 bets then all of those bets returned are attributed to the original 47 spins.
1889 2X freespins tracked. Return = 6718 bets. Avg. 3.556 bets per spin.
5. 378 wheel spins have produced the 3X freespins 19 times. Avg. 19.89
6. 1819 3X freespins have returned 10,651 bets. Avg. 5.855 bets per spin.
7. 378 wheel spins have produced the 4X free games 6 times. Avg. 63
8. 602 4X freespins have returned 4489 bets. Avg. 7.4568 bets per spins.
9. My stats put the game with all meters at reset at 85.4%
Keep in mind that I'm still adding stats to the sample space as I get plays. These are my current numbers. they can change. But at this point I don't look for them to change much.
My data is starting to look like higher bet levels are dropping the payback on the main reels. Not enough spins to make that a firm position, but that's what I'm thinking at the moment.
This math is for the 75 level.
I've pretty much quit collecting most stats on the 75 level of Buffalo Diamonds. But I'm still interested in the frequency of catching the wheel. Up thru about 20K spins it was averaging around 136. Then another 14K spins jumped it up to 146. I'm hoping that's an anomaly and will drop back down. It's a key number in figuring plays on the BD's. The lower the better.
And I'm still interested in the frequencies on the wheel for catching 2X,3x,4X so still track that.
Everything I put up here is by my stats. Others stats may look a little different but here we go.
It's hard to find just a straight up number to play like finding the 2X on 55 or something like that. The same with the 3X. So I'm doing either/or plays and that seems to be where the most opportunity is.
I use a base game of 69%. The main game plus 1X = 62.8%. Now I can throw in the meter rate. I have 6.3% on the 2X and 5.6% on the 3X. So I came up with a compromise meter speed of 6.2%. You'll hit the 2X almost 5 times for every one time you hit the 3X. So I have a base game of 69%.
I use decimal points to determine playable numbers. The first is on the 2X. The value of a 2X freespin is 3.556. The freq. of catching the 2X is 602 games. This 602 is derived from multiplying the wheel frequency, 146.46 by the frequency of catching the 2X on the wheel, 4.11.
So the decimal is 3.556/602 = .0059.
Same formula for the 3X. and the decimal is .002
Same formula for the 4X and the decimal is .008
So I'm in the casino and come across a Buffalo Diamond with this configuration:
4X = 56
3X = 48
2X = 34
Base game 69%
4X 56 X .008 = 4.48%
3X 48 X .002 = 9.6%
2X 34 X .0059 = 20.06%
It adds up to 103%. What you can expect on plays like this is short term losses when you go out on the 2X and get your paydays when you hit the 3X/4X.
Those are the same type of plays I'm finding as well. I think I've gotten 2 or 3 2x at or near the break even on their own.
I've been using the 2x as a type of loss rebate so I don't get stuck chasing a pure 3x. I want a little more than 3% to chase a 1 in 3000 shot... It's a little better if it's a 3x or 4x play.
The max coin is my favorite option
Feel free to post something useful.
Here is what I have:
2.50: 1400 spins.
Spins per wheel: 152.44
Diamonds Collected:
2x - 62 spins
3x - 105
4x - 196
Wheel weights:
1x: 56%
2x: 33%
3x: 11%
4x: 0%
Drop: 48.4% (including 1x)
Bonus Value:
2x - 134 spins / $1,275
3x - 202 / 2439
4x - 29 / 750
I've not put my 4x data together yet. I was pissed and bought beer. I'll post it later.
Post something useful Zema and give us some playable starting points.
Really enjoy your twitter, work with that and add content to it daily if you could.
If we could put your base reels together with my 3x we would have had a play. Of course if frogs had wings...
Still no playable numbers from the stat men
I was playing for the 3X at the 2.40 bet level and hit 4X twice long before hitting the 3X. Does that seem abnormal to you guys?
I have had success at much lower numbers than you, Mickey. I am sure that I have just had good variance but feeling like I couldn't lose I chased the 3X when it was less than ideal. By the time it hit it was at 120 and, of course I got a few more free spins. However, I still ended up with less than $1,000 for the free spins at the 2.40 level. I hope that was unusually low. Any info is appreciated.
Each bet level is it's own animal. My working theory is the wheel freq. is the same on every bet level but the frequencies for catching the 2X, 3X, 4X is shorter the higher the bet level and the value of a free spin is lower the higher the bet level.
I'm currently not doing much work on BD because I rarely get a playable number on them.
I chased a 3x at that level. I wrote down $2.50 but maybe it was $2.40? I hit the pink/purple twice before the blue (middle one). Did 3,899 spins. Right before I hit the bonus round I was down $3,117. Blue meter went up by 40 from start to finish. Not including the retrigger spins, the bonus paid $13.83 per spin.
I don’t remember either way if I hit anything extra good or felt like I ran bad during the bonus round.
I'm getting a huge kick watching these guys getting their asses handed to them playing this game. Face the facts, it's NOT a play!
At $2.50 I have hit 328 wheels.
2x - 169
3x - 20
4x - 15
No answer to the PM. I'm calling BS.
Given what is known about BD can you guys even theorize how it could possibly not be a play?
It sounds like the guy "knows something" but obviously the game is a play at times.
JBJB is a stand-up guy. The BDs he's been exposed to may not be a play, but I have no way to stop you guys from assuming whatever you're going to assume. As for me, I just use Mickey's numbers and they have worked out great. That is, at 75 cents (I'm a one-bit guy, I won't even play higher denoms than this unless I see something obscene, which hasn't happened yet), I use 42+ games for the 2x,103+ for the 3x and I don't even involve the 4x in my decision-making process. I have been a net winner using Mickey's numbers. I assume I'll pick up a wheel about every 130 spins (75 cent denom), and that I have about a 1/3 chance of picking up the 2x or 3x when I do get the wheel. I've caught the 4x before but I just think of it as gravy. If I see a lower number for the 2x and 3x like say 35 for the 2x and some mid-50s 3x, I might take that also. MC gives the value of the 2x and 3x games so it is easy to calculate the 2x/3x combo that makes it +EV.
I like the Mickey method too.
My mistake guys. Wrong game and thread. ignore my posts.
Seriously though, you all need to shut your traps about these games. Casino personnel ARE reading those feeds. Also, you'll have Shackleford putting it out there for all to see.
Speaking of which (casino personnel), here is a funny story. Hit a small Indian casino and vultured the bar top UXs. They had some 10s or better VP so I used that to earn the free play (low volatility,99.1% version). Had 8/5 ACE$ bonus poker also and I was playing it to churn earned free play (I guess I could have used 10s or better for that too). Next time I came in there, all three of those games were specifically gone (bar tops just had slots loaded, no more UX). Small burn joint surveillance has nothing better to do I guess.
I love how some of you keep bringing up my free play flub from a few years ago that some stupid morons used on video roulette.
Thart fact that I use any free play on games with player edges WELL OVER 100% instead of games where it's STILL -EV like video roulette, tells me otherwise! :rolleyes:
P.S. we've had our first +$1,000,000 yearly profit!!! You all have fun. :cool:
Spin us another yarn, douchebag.
You didn't even know that casinos don't keep your initial wager when you win the bet...lmao
Fuck, another losing bet. Thought for sure you were dead.
The AC King Plopp still lives.
Shouldn’t you still be sucking UK Stages off for a shot at his group of ho’s he pays off with free play?
Quote Rob dickweed:
"jbjb is a vct forum hack with a low-paying service job who tries to impress. He posts big vp hits he gets on multi-play nickel & dime machines yet he says he wins millions."
Hey you stupid asshat, my money comes from table games. I haven't had a "job" in nearly 20 years. Why? Because we CRUSH the casinos! Now fuck off back to that ugly hillbilly of a whore with the dried up cunt you're married to.
My last post on this retarded site.
Make sure to delete ALL your posts.
I haven't gotten through the whole thread yet so forgive me if this has been addressed already, but you're on the right track...
Spin Amount: 5 Buffalo Payout:
75 300
160 600
250 900
400 1200
As you can see, the payouts do not increase proportionally with the bet amounts. Presumably, that extra dime, quarter, and dollar respectively is going to fund the increased (or guaranteed in the case of max bet) chances of hitting the 2x/3x/4x as you go up in bet size.
Wow. Of all the people I've heard wonder about this (including me), nobody else bothered to just compare the listed pays at the different denominations.
He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Prozema was implying that he thought the reel strips themselves in the main game were different at the higher bet levels. I don't believe that's the case. I think the difference in base game return is solely due to the extra money taken out to fund better bonuses.
I think he did think that. I thought the same thing and another slot player I spoke with did too.
I wasn't being sarcastic, I think it's funny that AFAIK none of us bothered to just check the pay tables for the different denoms.
(To be fair to myself BD is not a major interest of mine, but still...)
One could fairly easily map out reel strips without even going to the casino. This might be common knowledge, but you can slow down youtube to .25 speed. At .25 speed you can click pause/unpause and literally catch the reel spinning and write the thing down assuming it is a literal unchanging reel. The slow speed thing is useful for musicians trying to learn songs. Speeding up to 2x is useful when the youtube speaker needs to get it moving along.
I'm not suggesting that it is useful to know the reel, but one could tell if it changes from A to B without a huge amount of effort.
Great idea, but I'm not certain that would work as a way of mapping the reels.
Next time you're in a casino that has Buffalo Grand machines, (the ones with the 5-level uncapped progressives) take a couple minutes and watch one being played. Anytime 2 wheel symbols appear in the first 4 reels, the remaining reels "slow down" for dramatic effect. On these machines, they're slow enough that you can actually track the symbols in real time. Some squares think that by "stopping" the remaining reels when there's a wheel symbol appearing in one of them will get them to the bonus. It doesn't; the reels change instantly as soon as the button is pressed.
Here's what I know about BD reel composition:
Reel 1 has a disproportionate amount of kings, queens, jacks, and eagles.
Reel 2 has a disproportionate amount of tens, aces, and elk. (especially in the bonus rounds)
Reel 3 has a disproportionate amount of nines, tens, and wolves.
Reel 4 has a disproportionate amount of tens
Reel 5 has a disproportionate amount of all animal symbols. (especially buffalo.)
It's impossible for more than one buffalo to appear in Reel 1.
If you can manage to get a 10 in the first reel, you'll wind up with multiple 10 four-of-a-kinds a vast majority of the time. (but very rarely will you get a 10 five-of-a-kind, as there are very few 10's in the last reel.)
This is only intended to be a partial list. I'm sure there's much more I'm missing.
Acescracked_1210, are the pays worse as the denomination increases in the 2x/3x/4x rounds as well?
I'm curious if you happen to have an estimation of how many symbols are on a reel ? I might play around with youtube and see what happens. Shhh don't tell anyone. "What'd you do?" "Well I watched youtube and counted the reels on the slot machines". I mean that is like some kind of autistic shit right there.
It is obvious by the discussion here that not many have ever seen a real par sheet for a modern day electronic reel machine.
The 75 level returns more units in the freespins than the higher bets levels but the frequencies to get to the multipliers are longer. The overall return to player is about the same on all 4 bet levels but big differences in the configurations. The 75 and 160 levels are pretty close in configuration but the 250 and 400 levels are quite different; smaller main game returns, shorter frequencies on the multipliers but also lower returns in the freespins.
I have for sure noticed quite a lot of four of a kind 10's, at least from what I recall. So that makes sense.
Slowing down the video and mapping the symbols could work. Just because stopping the reel instantly changes what's on there "right now" to whatever it's supposed to be doesn't mean you can't slow down the video and map it accurately. By stopping the reel early all you're doing is jumping forward. Granted, I don't know if what is being shown while the reel is spinning is an accurate representation of the actual reel odds. But these are two very different things (accurate representation vs stopping it early).
I like the decimal method for calculating plays. The decimals are derived by dividing the value of a freespin by the number of regular spins it takes to get it.
For example, on the 75 level, the value of a 2X freespin is 3.337 units (based on 6K freespins).
The frequency to get to the 2X is 565.56. This number comes from multiplying the number of regular games it takes to catch the wheel, 132.68, by the average number of wheel spins it takes to catch the 2X multiplier, 4.24. That works out to 565.56.
3.337/565.5 = .0059 rounded.
Decimal for 3X is .001943
Decimal for 4X is .001295
So say I run into this configuration 2X 33/3X 56/ 4X 102
main game return is 64.2%
2X meter speed is 5.536%
The 3X and 4X meter speeds are not included because most of the time we are going to hit the 2X first then quit the play.
We've got a 69.7% base game
33 X .0059 = .1947
56 X .001943 = .1088
102 X .001295 = 13.2%
Total 43.55%
69.7 + 43.55 = 113.25%
Keep in mind that even though it shows a big edge most of the time you are going to lose on this play because all of the edge is in the 4X. On a play like this you'll get a payday about every 11 or 12 plays if you can fade the losses in between.
Thanks to Prozema for the database to work with.
deleted.