Meltdown at a craps table at Caesars

I was in Vegas at Caesars Palace on Wednesday and the craps table I was at went through a procedural meltdown. Everyone was at fault, and it cost some players a lot of money.

Here is the situation:

I was the shooter and I already had three points made -- 4, 5 and 6 -- in addition to a couple of come-out winners. The bets were being pressed up high because my rolls between passes were long. The table is loud with enthusiasm.

And that's when a new player squeezes into a spot at the far end from where I was standing.

And that's when the meltdown in procedures started. I will list everything that went wrong:

1. The new player bought in while I still held the dice. Proper craps etiquette is to wait until a new player has the dice, or at least until the point is made and there is a pause in the action. This player (and we found out later he was new at the game) didn't wait -- threw a $100 bill on the layout just as the dice were being pushed to me for my next throw.

2. The base dealer at the end of the table didn't wait to sell the chips to the new player and took the $100 bill off the layout and put a stack of red chips (20 $5 chips) in the middle of the layout at the back wall -- right in my "landing zone."

3. The stickman did not wait to push the dice to me even though a new player was buying in and a stack of chips was visible on the table.

4. The new player reached for the stack either unaware that I had the dice and was about to throw or didn't care.

5. I didn't look up to see the stack of chips or that the new player had his hand on the stack fumbling to pick them up and my dice were released. I should have seen what was going on and waited -- I knew damn well those chips were right in the center of the back wall where I aim my throw.

Yes, both my dice hit the new player's hand and with three points made and only one pass away for a 4-point Fire Bet payoff the dice rolled off the player's hand showing 7-out.

The table went nuts. Players were yelling at the base dealer and at the new player. While I was calm I said to the stickman that he shouldn't have pushed the dice to me while a player was buying-in.

One player who had about $500 on the layout went ballistic. All action stopped as players called for the pit boss. Meanwhile the layout was cleared of all bets. And the new player said he didn't do anything wrong.

Later I found out from the base dealer that the player who lost about $500 went to the casino general manager and filed an official complaint. Security was notified, the tapes were being reviewed, and the base dealer was notified of the complaint. (What will happen is probably nothing.)

What I found at later is that dealers at Caesars have been told not to delay the game, and if a new player wants to buy in they should not only let him buy in but allow him to buy in even if another player has the dice and is about to shoot. In other words, nothing is to stop the action or getting new money into the game.

This never would have happened in the old days when there was a boxman controlling buy-ins and chips, and when players knew proper table procedures, and dealers weren't rushed to get new money and new players into the game.

Alan--this would also have infuriated me and you are correct it wouldn't have happened in the old days. But remember, we used to have a box man that controlled the game. Whenever I see a newbie with his hands in the way I will nicely ask the stick to please ask him to put his hands up. I will also send the dice back to the stick and have him push them back to me after the hands are up. If they are still down or are put back down, I will again push them back to the stick and ask him to please explain to the newbie that you keep your hands off the table. If the stick gives me the dice and his hands are still there, I fire a fastball at his head. I only fire 1 die and hold the other so it cant be considered a valid dice throw. This usually gets the attention of the pit and I make my point very clear. So I actually hold up the game way more than it would have been held up to simply give the guy his chips.

When I played regularly at Caesars this usually was not an issue as all the dealers knew me. Now--while I have lost a little on my fastball it still can serve its purpose.

The player's appeal will go nowhere as it was a valid dice throw. I have won appeals to the gaming board (I believe it's in another thread here)---but there is no basis here other than the goodness of there heart and this guy is not a big enough player at $500 on the table.

Good story Alan, sorry about your misfortune. Similar situation happened to me the other night when I was shooting. I was having a good roll, the dice were pushd to me, and as I was about to release when i saw an arm go down for a late bet at the opposite end, well I kind of half cocked and only one die left my hand. No roll. Everyone admonished the greenhorn at the end of the table. Two rolls later- seven out.

Regnis, I am going to remember that one die fast ball trick. Is that an overhand or backhanded throw?

I can understand why everyone was frustrated, but they do know that none of this influenced the dice to land on 7. It was still a random throw, and just had a bad result that people blamed on the interference.

There is more to the story. I found out early today, that the base dealer was considering calling "no roll" when the dice hit the player's hand... but he said he couldn't get the words out in time.

Here's what I was told:

Apparantly the base dealer who pushed the chips to the new player later said at the table that he wanted to call a "no roll" but he said he couldn't get the words out in time, before the stick man made the call. While he said he did nothing wrong and he did not fear that other player's complaint to the casino GM, he conceded that he shouldnt have pushed out the chips at that exact time, and left them in the middle of the back wall instead of closer to the new player who was actually in the corner. Had the player not had to reach so far he would not have fumbled picking up the chips.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dannyj

Regnis, I am going to remember that one die fast ball trick. Is that an overhand or backhanded throw?

---

danny--if I want it to look accidental, it is underhand. If I want to make a point--which I would have wanted to do in Alan's case--it is an overhand. I always stand directly to the right or left of stick and I throw underhand with either hand so I don't have a backhanded throw in my repertoire.

And I am not joking about the high hard one.

Regnis, I usually prefer to shoot from sl1 or sr1 myself. I have toyed with an underhand throw at the house but it doesnt feel comfortable to me so I have never used it at the casino. I shoot strictly with my right hand - backhanded from either side of stick. Do you set the dice? What kind of grip do you use?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I can understand why everyone was frustrated, but they do know that none of this influenced the dice to land on 7. It was still a random throw, and just had a bad result that people blamed on the interference.

---

Dan, of course you're right. On the other hand, for most dice influencers (myself included) "random" is exactly what we are trying to avoid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dannyj

Dan, of course you're right. On the other hand, for most dice influencers (myself included) "random" is exactly what we are trying to avoid.

---

Let me continue that thought: to a dice influencer, the hands were the de-randomizing factor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dannyj

Regnis, I usually prefer to shoot from sl1 or sr1 myself. I have toyed with an underhand throw at the house but it doesnt feel comfortable to me so I have never used it at the casino. I shoot strictly with my right hand - backhanded from either side of stick. Do you set the dice? What kind of grip do you use?

---

Glad to have another craps player aboard. I don't believe you were around for previous discussions of dice control. So just so you know, I was barred from shooting (since revoked) and no longer consider myself a dice controller due to lack of practice and minimal actual playing time. However, to answer your question, in the day, I had several different sets, but the primary set was the left die with 6 on top and 3 facing me; and the right die with 3 on top and 6 facing me. Grip was middle 3 fingers with thumb on top. The key to the throw was the release of the thumb at the right time to get proper revolution, and proper arm speed and range which is where practice and repetition is required. Also, there was different height for different numbers if I was at that time in good control of the revolution.

I never liked the backhand toss (and I know most dice controllers prefer it) because when I did it, it had too much spin. When I was in good control with the understand, there was very little bounce back or roll. I could get a pretty flat landing if I was on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by regnis

Glad to have another craps player aboard. I don't believe you were around for previous discussions of dice control. So just so you know, I was barred from shooting (since revoked) and no longer consider myself a dice controller due to lack of practice and minimal actual playing time. However, to answer your question, in the day, I had several different sets, but the primary set was the left die with 6 on top and 3 facing me; and the right die with 3 on top and 6 facing me. Grip was middle 3 fingers with thumb on top. The key to the throw was the release of the thumb at the right time to get proper revolution, and proper arm speed and range which is where practice and repetition is required. Also, there was different height for different numbers if I was at that time in good control of the revolution.

I never liked the backhand toss (and I know most dice controllers prefer it) because when I did it, it had too much spin. When I was in good control with the understand, there was very little bounce back or roll. I could get a pretty flat landing if I was on.

---

Thanks Regnis. I primarily use the hardway set on non come out throws, but I have to say I am intrigued with your 6-3 set. I know I have never intentionally used it; but as I sit here looking at the dice with 9's showing on top and facing me, 5's showing away and down and the hard 4 and 10 on axis, I think I will give it a try tonight if I establish points of 5 or 9. I try to have as soft a toss as I can landing at about the don't pass box and have the dice bounce once or twice before barely kissing the back wall. If I have too much backward spin, one or both dies wont make it to the wall, in which case I make sure the next toss does.
Am I right to assume that your toss would land much deeper, say where ones odds might be?

The "landing zone" you might use on a table can vary with the bounce characteristics of the table. Ideally I like a table without much bounce and I use a soft toss to just below the first line of alligator bumps and try to trap the dice there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

The "landing zone" you might use on a table can vary with the bounce characteristics of the table. Ideally I like a table without much bounce and I use a soft toss to just below the first line of alligator bumps and try to trap the dice there.

---

Very true Alan. A few years ago at the bellagio it felt like I was tossing the dice on a bare piece plywood. With your deep toss, do you prefer the shorter throws next to the stick? Also, if you're tall on your throw the rebound must be murder.

I have a low, soft throw, always from SL1 or SR1.

There are very few tables that are not too bouncy these days. Between that and the lack of space between the wall and the pass line, there are only a few places that I know of where you can throw the dice properly. There is only one casino here in Chicago on which you can control the dice.

Caesars has quite a bit more bounce than it used to, but it is still better than most. Horseshoe Indiana appears to have some inconsistencies under the felt so that in addition to its horrendous bounciness, it also causes the dice to not land flat and therefore carom all over the place. They used to have a high roller table reserved for us bigger players every day. Now none of us play there at all. Typical of Caesars properties that the player is unimportant--they prefer to grind up the penny slot players and all it costs them is a buffet.

About a year and a half ago Caesars started laying new felt on their tables... and did something different. Instead of removing the old felt, they put the new felt on top of the old which made the tables more bouncey and eliminated the "clang" of hitting the felt on top of the wood. I wrote a piece on this change and have a photo of it here (after the story about the fire bet at Rincon):

http://alanbestbuys.com/id139.html

I mentioned this change in policy at Caesars over on the Las Vegas Advisor message board and there are some forum members there who have a different view on craps etiquette. Some say it's okay to buy in "mid point" and I wanted to post here what I said over there:

Quote

Originally posted by: OFF KILTER
The only rule of etiqutte I do not follow 100% is the one that says, "Only buy in after the point is made"

This one unwritten rule is specious to say the least.

(1) If the table has only a few players and a new player shows up it is absolutely ignored most of the time.


Yes, it probably is ignored most of the time, but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

Early on -- and I'm talking about more than 20 years ago -- I was instructed to wait to buy in. I was told that was the right thing, and the proper thing, to do and that's what I do.

Years ago there was an elderly gentleman who was a regular at Caesars. One morning I walked to the craps pit and he was at a table by himself rolling number after number -- and I could see that as I walked towards the table. He stood in the far center position. As I stepped up to SL1 he looked at me and said "please don't buy in now." (I don't know how many passes he had made because this was pre-fire bet, but there were lots of chips on the table -- come bets with odds.) I answered "I never do." And I stood there for the next six or seven minutes as he rolled number after number -- and at a table with him the only player you can imagine how quickly those rolls and payoffs came.

Sure, I could have bought in and with all those numbers he rolled I would have made a lot of money. But what if I had bought it, and bad luck came, and he threw a seven-out? Would it have been my buy in that caused the 7 to appear? No. But why ruin his time? He didn't make another pass but he did throw lots of numbers while I waited patiently.

Wait patiently, it's the right thing to do.

For those of you who talk about the long term -- think about the long term. You can wait patiently. The game of craps is not going away. You will have your turn. That is the right thing to do.

It's also the right thing to do to have a boxman so the game keeps moving. When Caesars eliminated the boxmen it had the dealers handle the buyins and that delayed the game. Now, because Caesars probably realized that the dealers handling the buyins delayed the game has instituted new rules about keeping the games going to make up for its boxman mistake.

So while the dealers might no longer be allowed to follow the etiquette of the game, it doesn't mean the players don't have to follow the etiquette of the game.