How fast to press bets?

I played some craps last night and the dealer on my end of the table kept telling us to press our bets and when we pressed we should press more.

The shooter was having a good roll but of course no one knew he was having a good roll until it was over. When it was over he had the dice for about 40 minutes.

It was a $10 table. I didn't start to press until after about 29 minutes and then I pressed slowly, going up only $5 as each number was hit. I stopped pressing when each bet was $25 or $30.

The dealer said if I was more aggressive with pressing I would have had black chips on the layout. But my interest was putting money in my rail and not back on the table.

So was I wrong?

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Originally Posted by AndrewG

I played some craps last night and the dealer on my end of the table kept telling us to press our bets and when we pressed we should press more.

The shooter was having a good roll but of course no one knew he was having a good roll until it was over. When it was over he had the dice for about 40 minutes.

It was a $10 table. I didn't start to press until after about 29 minutes and then I pressed slowly, going up only $5 as each number was hit. I stopped pressing when each bet was $25 or $30.

The dealer said if I was more aggressive with pressing I would have had black chips on the layout. But my interest was putting money in my rail and not back on the table.

So was I wrong?

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I don’t play near as much craps as I used to, but, I think you were slow to press.

1) You waited almost a half hour before you started pressing.
2) You never full pressed, only adding a nickel after hitting.

Nothing wrong with putting chips in your rail after hitting numbers, but many take the approach of alternating full presses with same bet. Many are far more aggressive than that. For my money, I’m not interested in playing several hours long sessions anymore so I feel more of a sense of urgency to pour it on when things are going well.

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Originally Posted by AndrewG

I played some craps last night and the dealer on my end of the table kept telling us to press our bets and when we pressed we should press more.

The shooter was having a good roll but of course no one knew he was having a good roll until it was over. When it was over he had the dice for about 40 minutes.

It was a $10 table. I didn't start to press until after about 29 minutes and then I pressed slowly, going up only $5 as each number was hit. I stopped pressing when each bet was $25 or $30.

The dealer said if I was more aggressive with pressing I would have had black chips on the layout. But my interest was putting money in my rail and not back on the table.

So was I wrong?

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The dealer does not know the correct time to press. No one does. He was encouraging higher action in hopes of some big winners so he could get some big tips.

Mr Crimm I think you understand my position. I don't know when the roll will end so I don't want to press, press, press and have all my money on the table when the seven out comes.

Andrew—-I agree with Danny j. I don’t want to stand there grinding on a negative game for hours. The only way to win at craps (other than dice control which most here feel is impossible) is to jump on that hot roll and then get out. How do you know the roll is hot. You don’t. But if you do something as simple as take same bet and then press, and keep doing that, you really aren’t exposed and can make some $$$.

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Originally Posted by regnis

Andrew—-I agree with Danny j. I don’t want to stand there grinding on a negative game for hours. The only way to win at craps (other than dice control which most here feel is impossible) is to jump on that hot roll and then get out. How do you know the roll is hot. You don’t. But if you do something as simple as take same bet and then press, and keep doing that, you really aren’t exposed and can make some $$$.

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In hindsight I can't argue with you. For 39 minutes I should have pressed, pressed, pressed and then taken all of my chips off the table.

In hindsight that's easy to say and to do.

But when the dice are rolling and you don't know what the next result is its hard to do that.

Pressing bets isn't done with the "house's money" because once it's paid to me it is "my money."

This is why I'm torn. I drove home wondering how much I would have won had I pressed more aggressively. I also wonder how much I would have left on the table when the seven rolled.

It comes down to — do whatever you wanna do. Past rolls don’t have any bearing on previous rolls. Betting more just means your expected loss is more. There’s no wrong or right way to do it.

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Originally Posted by RS__

It comes down to — do whatever you wanna do. Past rolls don’t have any bearing on previous rolls. Betting more just means your expected loss is more. There’s no wrong or right way to do it.

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I think you misspoke. Don't you mean past rolls don't have any bearing on future rolls?

You also raised an interesting question. If I increase my bets using previous wins, am I in fact increasing my loss when those pressed bets are lost?

For example I start with $54 across. After a half hour let's say I've won $250 but I now have $108 on the layout and a seven is rolled. Did I lose $108 or did I lose only $54?

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Originally Posted by AndrewG

If I increase my bets using previous wins, am I in fact increasing my loss when those pressed bets are lost?

For example I start with $54 across. After a half hour let's say I've won $250 but I now have $108 on the layout and a seven is rolled. Did I lose $108 or did I lose only $54?

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From your example or perspective it is always about when you are up or winning.
I never hear anyone try to rationalize from the point of always losing.
I have had 30+ years of experience with all these games and promise you that more than 50% of the time players have never had the chance to use "winning bets" or "winnings".
Most of the time they are down and continue to lose more and more till they are either felted or cannot stomach any more losses.
This fairy tale idea of... well, what about my winnings or if I use my winnings to press is just that... a fairy tale.

Not that it matters and both sides of the fence on this forum could care less of my opinion but for personal entertainment this is how I explain these games or any games in the Casino for that matter.
I compare it to a Savings Account.
You have three choices to invest as much as you like and at the end of the year you will make a percentage off of your total investment.

You can have Account Number 1 which returns a negative 1.2 percent of your total investment or wager if you will so... -1.2%
You can have Account Number 2 which returns a negative 1.4 percent of your total investment or wager if you will so... -1.4%
You can have Account Number 3 which returns a positive 2.0 percent of your total investment or wager if you will so... +2.0%

Of course it isn't as simple as this because many variables come into play but to try to simplify matters, this is the best way to help one understand what they are doing.
You can never beat a game that returns $98.80 on every $100.00 invested unless you are getting help in one way or another.
Many ways to get help honestly or dishonestly but that return will never be beat.

One could make an argument that if they get up and never play again they have beaten those negative returns but that is only an illusion.
The game isn't you versus the game. The game is the game versus every dollar wagered inside that game.

I don't really feel like arguing the matter and I have explained it for many years to all sorts of people.
One thing is for sure... you have two sides and they are never going to convert one another.

One of my favorite things to hear is how poker players actually believe they are winning poker players.
For instance I know this 4-8 limit game that drops 6 dollars on every 40 dollars in the pot.
That game averages 30 hands an hour at max rake for 180 dollars off the table per hour.
10 handed game with 100 dollar buy ins.
18% being raked off the table per hour just from the game.
This does not include an average dollar tip to the dealer per hand and 1 dollar to the waitress per drink.
Easy to say that 20% is coming off the table per hour or 200 dollars per hour!
That is the total buy in for the table every 5 hours! (1000 Dollars per 5 hours off the table!)
You really believe people can beat that game without cheating in one form or another??
When you start calculating the rake coming off per 8 hours of any poker game you realize you are up against a serious problem.
Even if you are the rare winning poker player without teaming up or cheating... your winnings are nothing compared to what is being swallowed up around you.
And that hole never stops or gives up or loses... just a matter of time for you to most likely be sucked up into it, than not.
Same exact concept of you playing a game that has a 1.4% or 1.2% edge against you.

So you should never press your bets in this game.
You should run for the hills if you plan on playing it straight or straight up.
Either learn how to play a game that will give you a positive return in the long run or learn how to cheat.
Better yet... work hard... save your money, help those in need and pray that God will forgive you when you eventually die.

An add-on to what Monet said about stiff rake. I have a friend, Ross Standiford, that used to be the card room manager at Cal Neva/Reno. Before that he was a poker dealer at Paragon Casino in Marksville, Louisiana. He told me they raked that town off for $300,000 in six months then closed the poker room because there were no more players left to rake. That's what happens when you don't continually have new players/money entering the game.

I used to play at the Horseshoe/Vegas quite a bit. The higher the stakes the lower the rake. The 10-20 holdem had a $2 rake, $1 at a $20 pot and another $1 at a $50 pot. The 4-8 had a 5% rake on an $80 pot. That's $1 for every $20 that goes into the pot with a $4 cap. In these games the players were experienced and didn't put up with stiff rakes.

The Moneymaker WSOP in 2003 caused a flock of tourists coming thru the Horseshoe and railbirding the games everyday. To trap these suckers in they started spreading 2-4 games. Easy to get the tourists into these low-limit games so they could go home and brag about playing poker at the Horseshoe in Las Vegas. It was a 10% rake, $40 cap. They were raking $1 at $10, another $1 at $20, another $1 at $30 and another $1 at a $40 pot. They would get 4 or five of these games everyday. They were raking the shit out of these games but had new player/money turnover everyday. And of course these players didn't know anything about the effect of rake. Perfect set-up. It lasted for a few years until the sucker tourists quit coming.

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Originally Posted by AndrewG

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Originally Posted by regnis

Andrew—-I agree with Danny j. I don’t want to stand there grinding on a negative game for hours. The only way to win at craps (other than dice control which most here feel is impossible) is to jump on that hot roll and then get out. How do you know the roll is hot. You don’t. But if you do something as simple as take same bet and then press, and keep doing that, you really aren’t exposed and can make some $$$.

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In hindsight I can't argue with you. For 39 minutes I should have pressed, pressed, pressed and then taken all of my chips off the table.

In hindsight that's easy to say and to do.

But when the dice are rolling and you don't know what the next result is its hard to do that.

Pressing bets isn't done with the "house's money" because once it's paid to me it is "my money."

This is why I'm torn. I drove home wondering how much I would have won had I pressed more aggressively. I also wonder how much I would have left on the table when the seven rolled.

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Andrew, many a time over the years I have kicked myself for not pressing more aggressively during a hot roll. But, I do not kick myself when inevitably the seven shows, regardless of how much is on the layout at the time the dreaded number shows up. I just don't. It's a process through alternate presses, if there is a lot of chips on every number when the seven does show, I know I have more chips in my rail than when I started. Also, I think most players do know when a hot roll is happening based on length of time, number of passes, and lack of garbage (non-paying) numbers rolling.

Never bet more than the minimum (preferably never bet at all) when you are at a disadvantage.

You need to find a style of play that you can live with and enjoy.

You need to be able live with it when you loose your money. Pressing means you loose faster when things are bad, but means if you can catch a good roll you have a lot of fun.

For example I’ve been playing continuous come bets with double odds and pressing the odds one unit on each hit. When it goes bad I can loose 10-15 units in one roll. But the other day I won almost 100 units on one good shooter.

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Originally Posted by RoeIncarnate

Pressing means you loose faster when things are bad

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This makes no sense because you only press when winning. Unless I'm mistaken you use a winning payoff to increase or press your bet on the table.

But a question for those of you who advocate pressing: since craps is a random, negative expectation game, isn't Mr jbjb correct when he says bet the minimum?

I have heard rumors that if one spends too much time at the craps table that the same individual may end up getting married there.

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Originally Posted by AndrewG

But a question for those of you who advocate pressing: since craps is a random, negative expectation game, isn't Mr jbjb correct when he says bet the minimum?

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Recreational gamblers like me are playing to have fun. I get to Vegas only once a year now. And while I understand the odds I'm there for the total Vegas experience that includes the possibility of a big craps win by alternate bet pressing. Of course I could just flat bet the pass line and take the max odds but that's kind of boring for me. I also go on coupon runs to try to play every match play, free slot play, win card, rebate and signup deal available to me so that offsets my risky Craps play.

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Originally Posted by AndrewG

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Originally Posted by RoeIncarnate

Pressing means you loose faster when things are bad

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This makes no sense because you only press when winning. Unless I'm mistaken you use a winning payoff to increase or press your bet on the table.

But a question for those of you who advocate pressing: since craps is a random, negative expectation game, isn't Mr jbjb correct when he says bet the minimum?

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If you have $6 on the 8, hit it you should have $7 back ($1 profit if it then loses). If you press, you get $1 back and if it loses you’re down $5. Or think what’d happen if you press 10 times before collecting — you’re almost always going to lose.