Finally, something pretty interesting at WoV.
Check out his VP speed challenge.
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Finally, something pretty interesting at WoV.
Check out his VP speed challenge.
What is interesting about it? :confused:
As the "shooting" thread veered off topic today, towards discussion of gambling related sites, I made reference to this exact thing. This competitive side of many on these sites. Everything and I mean everything is a "pissing contest". It's like perpetually being stuck in third grade. :( And Mike takes it to the extreme....the food eating contests come to mind.
So tell me what benefit there is to this contest? How does anyone benefit by it?
I want to play as quickly as I can play and still be accurate because.....that is how you maximize profits. Take profits out as this silly contest does and for what? I don't get it....maybe it's me. :rolleyes:
This takes me back to that "goofy" rope climbing contest with Joshua Chan, at the purchase of Woo/wov. Everything a competition? This guy Shackleford must be a real hoot to live with. :rolleyes: I can see it now....the dinner challenge in the Shackleford home....first one to finish dinner while riding backwards on a unicycle is king of the Shackleford mountain for the day.
Nothing "wrong" with a pissing contest, a circle jerk, or a "whose is biggest" competition.
Boys will be boys.
KJ, men sometimes like to act like boys, typically when some form of sporting competition is involved.
For example, when I shoot pool or play darts it takes me to a different place, a place without worry or care or focus on the terrible realities of the modern real world.
Too bad you can't seem to relate.
Maybe it is me. Maybe I can't relate. The only person I am ever completing with is myself. When I have a friendly game of ping pong, or darts or a video game with my brother or a friend, it is much less about winning or losing and just enjoying the company of that person. I don't need to score more points than my friends or brother to feel good about myself....to make myself feel superior to anyone.
But anyway, maybe that's just me. So if you think Mike's little challenges are "interesting"....enjoy yourself. Seriously...to each his own. :)
Ya, my GF, sister and mother don't really like competitions either. Most men DO like competitions of all kinds. I think you are the odd man out.
Eating competitions are not my taste, but I certainly like competing in other things on occasion. This country is the most competitive country in the world and it's a good thing.
Don't you like watching sports and the Olympics, Isn't all that just one big competition?
I believe competition was a major factor in making America a great and powerful country(IMO it IS still a great country, we don't need to make it great agian, we just awlays need to work on making it better than it is).
You had the railroads competing and guys like Carnegie, Rockefeller, Morgan competing, the auto industry.
Of course men like competing. I don't think I've ever played a game simply "for the fun of it". Of course videos games and sports are fun.....but are much more fun when you win. Some things are better for just fun and others for competition. I'm not going to compete with someone if I'm out on a hike or rock climbing (not that I do either of those) or something like that. But if I'm playing a game or in some other competitive situation, I'll be damned if I'm not trying my hardest to win. I'd hate to play ping pong against someone who isn't trying to win. Fun fact: I beat Wizard at ping pong, quite handily I might add. :) Would'a been nice if he agreed to $100/pt...lol
I don't much see the point in someone who's in a "mentoring" position trying to get people to test to see how fast they can play a primarily negative expectation game that's often referred to as "the crack cocaine of gambling." That's like the dude who can handle white lightning prodding you into a drinking contest.
Really, isn't that the point of most of the free promotional video poker tournaments? To get people conditioned to play fast as hell, and to practice a bit playing fast as hell? It all works out in the casino's favor in the long run.
So why promote such a thing? It isn't in the best interests of anyone but yourself, if you're showing off, and the casino's best interest as well.
You know, WoVers can't have it both ways. You shouldn't go raking recreational "ploppies" over the coals (I never use that "ploppies" term) for bad plays while promoting something that's not likely to be good for them.
I would think that anyone interested in doing this is already an AP. If they were to do this on a .5 denomination with a bad paytable it would cost less than $10 in EV.
Some people want to be praised or whatever, and they are willing to pay a few bucks for the honor, it's a daily occurrence in life.
Mike has asked me a number of times to get the ball rolling with this and at least establish a starting number. This is not the first time it has been proposed.
I don't know how fast I can play without mistakes, but I'm sure I could put up a respectable number. On the older machines, I used to be able to play a 10/7 double bonus and an FPWD at the same time and even watch someone playing next to me for mistakes(I have no doubt I was making some mistakes myself). When they started cracking down more on VP players I stopped playing 2 machines at the same time. Nowadays the machines are so fast I don't think playing 2 will help much, but I could be wrong.
When Mike brought it up It just wasn't something I was all that interested in. I know damn well no one can keep up the speeds they are looking for, at least not for very long without making a bunch of mistakes and attracting attention. I'm not sure what having the title of the fasted VP player gets you. I would rather see if someone could maintain 800 hands and hour with minimal mistakes and get in 125 hours a week for a month straight.
I would only want to play super fast if the casino was running a good promo, a promo that more than made up for mistakes made and the extra hands you got out really counted. Perhaps a double on 4 of a kind promo.
For APs, playing fast certainly has its benefits. If you're playing something straight up, you can get more hands in during your 4, 8, or 12 hour shift. Granted, there's the "fatigue" factor, where you might make more mistakes the longer you play, especially at fast speeds. In my experience, it doesn't seem like I'm making any more mistakes near the end of a long session compared to the beginning. If anything I just play a bit slower.
If you're playing a promotion or need to hit a goal of X and then you're done, then playing fast means you'll be in the casino for less time than a slower player would. A "goal" would be to play until you get X amount of points, win or lose a certain amount, or hit a certain hand (ie: if you get paid extra on a RF or 4oak).
One problem I see with some players is trying to play so fast it looks like they're flapping their arms or something and it just looks weird. But that's just bad technique.....you don't need to hit the button 10 times, one or two will do.
I don't think many non-APs are interested in a speed competition, at least, I don't think they should be (but who am I to judge?).
I'm surprised this contest wasn't held before. The credo of VP APs is that they have an advantage on every hand they play so it makes sense to play at the fastest pace possible.
Let's see how these superhumans do since they consider +EV video poker machines their personal ATMs.
Remember these same people say there is no reason to quit when they have their advantage so it always should be full steam ahead.
Competition is a necessary thing.
But not all competition is equally productive. The video poker challenge clearly has real-world relevance, whereas the eating challenges are probably more dubious. In the USA, we have non-productive competition in the form of crony capitalism. Success in business is often achieved by obtaining favors from government, and using government as a weapon against rivals.
Faster machines is a really good thing, especially if you're worried about attracting attention. I try to keep my hands quiet, and I've only rarely had people comment that I was playing fast. It's impossible to play two machines without being noticed.
Kind of funny....a couple machine AP's, Axel and RS voice express that they have no interest in this kind of competition, as it serves no purpose, and probably is counter-productive to players development. And Alan comes on saying "he thinks it's a great idea....full steam ahead". :rolleyes: Shows the difference in mentality between AP's and non AP's. Nothing wrong with that, as Alan is not an AP. It just continues to highlight some of the goofy things he says and does are so out of touch with how AP's think.
Anyway, speed is only important, if you maintain accuracy. In my own household, I have a guy, my partner, who handles most of the machine play and he plays too fast IMO. I occasionally see him make mistakes and miss seeing things. It is especially easy to miss a pair if they are on opposite ends, when you are going too fast. Sometimes I say something and he gets defensive. Sometimes I say nothing. But really like in blackjack card counting, just a couple mistakes cuts into a very slim profit margin. Accuracy should be first, speed second. Anyone focusing on speed as the primary objective is bound to be sacrificing accuracy.
In card counting, there is a drill "counting down a deck" that is universally done as a practice drill. Flipping over a card at a time while keeping a running count. All the MIT teams, and Tommy Hyland's teams before that used this drill and I am sure others before that. But the drill is almost completely meaningless. It is in no way representative of how one should count at the tables. Yet, on blackjack sites, you regularly see mention of this drill and players proudly proclaiming times of 18 second, 15 second, 13 second.
If you're missing pairs, I agree you're playing too fast. On rare occasions, I'll miss seeing a correct hold, but I'm pretty sure I usually realize it just as I've pressed the draw button. Now I'm aware of the mistake, so I know I need to slow down. I think it's similar to when you're playing blackjack and the dealer pays your non-winning hand, but then mentally catches himself as he's scooping the cards.
The bigger concern for me occurs when the machine buttons are not in perfect order. Then I may find I need to slow down to be sure each card is properly held as I press the buttons.
Actually it's just logic. And it's their logic.
If the APs say that every hand they play at +EV VP gives them an advantage then by all means they should play as fast as they can and as much as they can. In fact, they say they only stop for exhaustion or eating or bathroom breaks. They say since they have an advantage they should keep on playing and keep on playing and keep on playing. Yes, that's exactly what they say. Which is also why they reject win goals and loss limits -- because they have a +EV.
So that is their logic. I didn't make this up.
Again, you're new here. You should go back in the archives of this site and read what they wrote. And how they say if they have a +EV game there is no reason to stop. Therefore, the faster they can play the better. It's what they said. And it doesn't take an "AP" to understand what they said.
Probably the thing I hate most about machine play is the frequency that buttons don't work and skip. :mad:
A couple years ago at South Point, which was in my regular machine play rotation, but not blackjack as they are too sweaty, I held 3 aces and only two held and what would have been the fourth ace came up. I raised hell. It was the difference in $7.50 and $200. At first they told me nothing they could do, and when I told them to hold the video, because my attorney would contact them, they relented and paid me. I had no intention of getting Bob involved for $200....just leverage :rolleyes:
So I got my $200 but have not received mail on that account since. Spiteful pricks! :mad:
Ok, first of all your little "new here" comment is condescending. I may be new here, but I am not new to advantage play (in my 14th years of supporting myself), nor am I new to AP/gambling message boards. AND, I am very familiar with the likes of Axel, RS, Mickey from other sites. I know there is no way these guys or any other serious machine AP every said anything about speed trumping accuracy. That just didn't happen!
I don't need to go back and read anything said before I started here to know exactly what you are doing because you have done it multiple times in my short time here. You hear what you want to hear and manipulate things said to suit yourself and your predetermined notions. It is repulsive Alan! It is just flat out dishonest! :(
Actually, you really do need to go back and read what the VP APs said. And they do not include Axel, RS and Mickey. The mantra of the video poker APs is simple and direct: when they have an advantage they keep on playing, and the more they play the more they win, and the faster they play the more they win. That's it. They said it. Not me.
So again, what took them so long at the WOV to have this contest?
I think its interesting. Just how fast can someone play? Why not?
How about a contest for how many hands of blackjack you can count without an error?
How about a contest for how many rolls of the dice without a 7?
Actually, a contest for video poker speed is very valid and again it fits the theory behind playing +EV video poker games.
You are too closed minded, kewlj. And you also attack me too much.
I agree with Alan. We've all heard the phase "speed kills" when referring to -EV games. Well the opposite is true for +EV games. Using blackjack as an example, a civilian should play full tables with slow dealers. Card counters, hole carders, trackers, etc., should play with as few players and fast dealers to get as many hands per hour as possible.
I am sorry, if it seems that way to you, Alan. I try to give everyone the benefit of doubt, and I have honestly tried to do that with you. Time after time, I would tell myself, maybe he isn't being manipulative intentionally. Maybe he is "quirky" and this is just his way. Maybe he is just one of these guys that likes to play "devil's advocate".....to the extreme.
But it is really more than that. When you manipulate what is said, change what is said to suit yourself an leave out important things said that don't fit your narrative, over and over and over....I can no longer give you the benefit of the doubt. The only conclusion has to be that you are intentionally being manipulative. And while it is harsh to say and you will take offense, there is no other word for this repeated behavior than dishonest.
And now it's off to work.
Depending on the game and AP tactic being used, speed will definitely trump accuracy and vice versa.
I think you have something against the Wizard.
What the Wizard wrote in his "challenge" is both interesting and valid. He is questioning the super ability reported about Paddock. So he wants to see if anyone else comes close to what is being reported about Paddock. So, why not ask his own forum members? This appears to me to be perfectly rational and valid... as well as interesting.
You don't like him. He banned you. No wonder you feel the way you do. I think anyone who crosses you is going to get attacked by you, the same way you attacked me only because I challenged your claim that you can count two tables.
Not everyone agrees with kewlj. Deal with it.
Okay, here's my argument why this is a bad or irresponsible idea from Shackleford. Yeah, AP's benefit from speed, but realistically how many people who read this stuff on WoV are actual true live-and-breathe AP's? One percent? Two percent? And actual APs don't need any speed coaching, obviously -- they try to max their speed themselves.
So what's the likely effect of this kind of prioritization of speed and a "speed challenge?" The casinos make more money or less?
I've seen guys on the old FPDW machines play two machines at extremely high rates, with their head rolling back and forth like Stevie Wonder during a song, but for long, long times. They looked like Rain Man. But this isn't about that. It's about getting people to emphasize speed when the majority of play is on negative expectation machines. Or is somebody going to argue that WoVers, as a group, aren't a negative expectation population? Please....
Whoa. It's not actually a speed challenge. It's appears to be more of an examination about the alleged ability of Paddock. Read again what the Wizard wrote:
I have done four media interviews about the Vegas shooting and one thing that the interviewers seem incredible is my assertion that some highly skilled video poker players can play 1,000 hands per hour accurately, or more. Personally, my speed would impress nobody but I'm also 52 years old.
What I'm looking is somebody who can at least play close to 1,000 hand per hour (HPH) to establish some kind of record to beat.
Frankly, had the Wizard said "is it possible Paddock played that quickly? Let's find out," we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Nope, that’s not it at all. Whether or not you think I can track two tables is irrelevant to me. It really is. Always was. It just so happens that ongoing challenge happened to be where I first encountered how you manipulate everything. Unfortunately that characteristic or trait of your has manifested itself numerous times, concerning different subject matter, since. :(
You are correct, I do have something against Mike. But, saying that I don’t like him is inaccurate. I admire and envy his mathematical ability. I greatly admire the path he chose. Mike was a nerdy, math guy in a very safe government job. He was very much of a stereotype. The kind of people that never leave those safe jobs. They put in their 30 years and safely retire. Mike had the ‘ballz’ to break from that mold and follow his passion and dreams and I admire the hell out of him for that. I think he kind of lucked out, into the final success that he had in the end, but that’s great. He took the chance and was rewarded. I am sincerely happy for him in that regard.
Yes, Mike banned me from Wov. But my negative feeling toward him are not the result of him banning me. Sure I was pissed, but I am long over that part of it......mostly. :rolleyes: Since you may not know the circumstances, I will fill you in….and you know what….I will be criticized for bring this up again…..but I don’t care. :cool:
I’ve honestly come to believe that Mike was a victim. He was used. Mike was manipulated by a bully that he thought was his friend and Mike made a poor decision to get in the middle of something he had no business getting involved in. I don’t hold a grudge concerning poor judgment. I exhibit poor judgment all the time. I try to learn from mistakes, make amends if need be, and move on.
Where I continue to have a problem was with what happened afterwards. Almost immediately in private conversations, Mike admitted he was wrong, numerous times. But he couldn’t bring himself to admit that publicly, coming up with a completely dishonest story instead.
So during this time just after he banned me, and that I was communicating privately with Mike, I also had several members of Wov, friends of Mike’s telling me that “Mike was trying to figure a way to bring me back”. :confused: This was bizarre....all he had to do was be honest and say, I made a mistake and should not have gotten involved. He could not bring himself to do that. He cared too much that this somehow would diminish what his members thought of him, when in reality the complete opposite was true. Most people don’t hold it against anyone for making, admitting and fixing a mistake. That is an admirable quality.
Over a year, I waited and waited for Mike to do the right thing, and yes, I was pretty harshly criticizing him, while I waited. :rolleyes: But, he never could bring himself to do so. He stuck to his fabricated story. Finally, I had no choice but to publicly post some of his private messages with his many contradictions, including how he admitted he should not have banned me. He forced me to be the bad guy, releasing private messages, because he was too weak, too small of a man, to admit publicly what he told me privately.
So yes, I continue to have very little respect for Michael Shackleford at this point in time.
And here’s another odd little tidbit, that I have never shared before. Remember earlier, when I said I have come to believe Mike was the victim, that he was used, that he was manipulated? The first time I posted that, on another site, I was immediately advised by one of Mike’s “friends”, that I should not repeat that thought. That Mike wouldn’t take kindly to a suggestion that he had been “used” and manipulated, as it made him look weak. This completely exemplifies what the whole aftermath of this incident was about. Mike being more concerned with his image and what people think, than fixing what he knew and admitted was wrong-doing on his part.
Now watch as the Wov-ers spit fire at me. ;)
Alan, first of all, you don't have the best reputation when it comes to understanding advantage play. You really like to twist shit around when you don't understand something but somehow think you do.
Yes, if you have an advantage and the play is within your risk tolerance and EV thresholds, then you should play.
My comments about playing faster and giving up EV on mistakes is dependent on the advantage you're getting and how the play works overall (is it time-sensitive or is it win/loss or coin-in based?). If you're playing something with a 1% advantage, then you're going to be shooting yourself in the foot if you play faster and give up 0.5% in EV for playing faster (say, 800 HPH vs 1000 HPH). In one case, you'll profit 8 units per hour, for example, and the other you'll profit 5. If you have something with a 10% advantage, then you'll either profit 80 units or 95 units (at 800 HPH playing perfectly vs 1000 HPH giving up 0.5%).
Don't make this about me. The Wizard has proposed a worthwhile project. I wish him luck.
Those of you who think he's wrong should be posting that on the WOV.
Be my guest.
Alan, you've apparently planted yourself firmly in the memory banks of many WoVers.
Note that the poll associated with the thread has as the most popular choice the following: "How about a record for throwing consecutive yo's."
I guess the next time I post a poll I could have the option "ask forum members to donate to keep me in business."
Not a bad idea, Alan.
Of course, you'd need to end your self-imposed exile from WoV in order to post the poll.
1000 hph is not fast. Its just cruising speed. Any idiot can do it. For those of you that dont belive it clock yourselves for one minute then multiply it out.
Video keno is my fastest game. I play up to 4000 games per hour with no mistakes.
Mickey my friend, I know nothing about keno or video keno. And I have no doubt, you are one of the top players of that game and most that you decide to play.
But I have a problem with anyone who says I do this or that with no mistakes. Players often make these claims in blackjack count debates. I can plays my super duper count as fast as you can play hi-lo, with no mistakes. How does one KNOW this? Unless you are video taping your play and analyzing each play, you or anyone else can't possible know how many mistakes they are making.
I am quite sure you are making some mistakes, because you are a human being. You may be making very minimal mistakes, maybe have the lowest error rate around, because you are a top player in your field, but unless you are claiming to not being a human being, you my friend, are making some mistakes.
Micky, correct me if I'm wrong, but after picking the numbers, video keno requires nothing more than hitting the button. There are no mistakes you can make.
My wife and I generally play sitting together. We talk and take our time. While both playing VP, we will discuss certain holds as she is just learning. A 4 to the royal dictates a moment of contemplation and silence, trying to decide exactly the right time to push the button. A 4 of a kind is high fives and smiles. It's recreation for us, a couple of hours to unwind, shoot the breeze and relax.
I sometimes take time to sing and celebrate. https://youtu.be/ZxNWPlmIqWA
Alan, please don't take this as me "picking on" you, but that video about the dumbest thing I have seen you do or say. And I am not taking about how embarrassed you should be from your actions, I am talking about the unnecessary danger you place yourself in doing such an idiotic thing as drawing attention to yourself after a sizable win. :(
Alan, do you ever, ever think about the consequences of what you do (or say)? :confused:
Lol! Yep, nothing to think about after you pick the numbers. Its always on a short term advantage like a 5-spot progressive. There isn't even any hand movement on the machines I play. You just place your finger on the screen sensor and the game keeps playing. I always put it on turbo speed, whip out the phone, read kindle, check email, read news, or see what the hell Alan is complaining about on VCT.
I've been shot at, held hostage, had a knife to my throat, and covered multiple riots with rioters all around me. You think I care about making a scene when I hit a royal? You should have seen me scream like a little girl on Christmas morning when I hit my first 100k royal. You should have been with me when I walked through a field of mutilated bodies.
Should he have been vertical or horizontal?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
When did you walk through a field of mutilated bodies?Quote:
Sometimes you just say the wrong things.
Not just dead, but "mutilated."
Not just one or two, but "a field of mutilated bodies."
Let me guess: there were 18 in a row.
Ah yes.
Back when Jimmy Olson used to tag along with Superman.
Got it.
Doing goofball stuff like this can actually be good cover for an AP on a play. I remember Bob Dancer writing about being on a play and doing stuff similar to what Alan does here. The short of it was casino personnel let Bob stay on a play while pitching a serious couple off of it because they thought the couple were AP's but thought Bob was just a goofball degenerate gambler.
I think that it's goofballs rationalizing goofball stuff, but in a different manner. After all, the gamblers exist because of the casinos.
Yes that's true, however, I dont think I could bring myself to act like Alan in that video.
There have been a few times when I hit something and the attendant saying something like, "you don't seem that excited." I just say, "I'm just in shock, I can't believe I finally hit something.
There's been some activity on the VP speed challenge. A guy played ten minutes of FPDW on two adjacent machines at Santa Fe Station. His total hourly rate was over 2500 hands. That's fast. The Wizard posted a couple of videos to YouTube.
Now the same challenger is going to establish a single-machine record.
Here's the YouTube channel link:
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheOddsMustBeCrazy
Click VIDEOS to see the latest content.
Long version of the two-machine challenge:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oIkmDkKvnQ
This guy plays 2 machines fast. So what. He probably made more errors than anyone would care to admit. Most people make mistakes playing comfortably. But good for him and his ten minutes of wizzard fame.
Just curious--I did not watch anywhere close to the whole thing. But I noticed on one hand he kept ace queen suited with a deuce. On another he only kept the deuce. I don't play deuces. Is that because there was another of that suit discarded in the latter? Anyone know the reason and/or the numbers? Arci???
I don't have my strategy cards in front of me, but I thought you keep just the deuce if the two-to-the-royal involves the ace. If it's K-J suited or whatnot, you keep the three to the royal with the deuce. It's a close call, but I think that's correct. Anybody know for sure?
Good catch. Yes, it's a penalty card situation. I think the way it works out, the AQs is only held with the deuce if the hand is completely free of interference. The deuce alone is correct if any flush or straight penalty card is present -- which would include another card of the same suit, or any K, J or Ten.
I don't really now the FPDW strategy, but according to the basic strategy, AJ2 isn't a proper hold normally, but it is sometimes on the basic strategy exceptions.
https://wizardofodds.com/games/video...5-d-200-d-800/
Did he make any money? If not what the heck is the point of playing fast?
FPDW has a 0.76% advantage. Although it's not a huge advantage, the game can be played around the clock, because it's always there. At say 2,400 hands/hour, that's $3,000 coin in per hour, for an hourly EV of $22.8. The faster you play, the more coin in you do, which means the more money you make.
It looks like he may have started with two hundred but at the end he had less than two hundred I think. So playing faster helps how? I'm not talking variance here I'm just saying in the real world situation he lost five bucks or so in ten minutes. That's fifty bucks on hour lost.