Scavengers vs Vultures

Hustlers & APs use the terms interchangeably (because they never learned the correct usage).

One is clearly loitering and is that is the “catch-all” basis used by casinos to 86 hustlers.

The other one is checking machines or looking for visual clues to know when to play.

For example, I am walking around and observe that a bank of bonus slots are all at $3.75 (the top bet), then I am not going to check those machines. As a scavenger, I am looking for plays, opportunities for camouflage, taking on prop bets (aka gambling), etc. In essence, I am looking for machines to play and risking my money.

Some lazy, poor trailer trash who is waiting for over 30 minutes (had to move his seat a few times) waiting for a lady to tap out doesn’t realize the eye in the sky is taking notes and a few month later, the vulture gets 86’ed due to complaints. The vulture is too stupid (and/or ignorant) to realize casino patrons do complain to security, management, etc. After enough complaints, the casino just don’t want to deal with it anymore and out they go. Recall, everyone is being filmed or recorded once we are on the casino floor.

So, both words describe similar things and connote a common theme but are really different.

In the wild:
A vulture is waiting for some animal to die so the vulture gets a meal
A scavenger is look for a meal, but that meal could have been left there for a while.

My advice: Don’t be a vulture and piss off the yahoo’s or ploppies of the world. Scavenging is better because the machine is empty, no one is currently playing it, you don’t have to interact with yahoos and just go about your business.

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Originally Posted by Ex-AP

Hustlers & APs use the terms interchangeably (because they never learned the correct usage).

One is clearly loitering and is that is the “catch-all” basis used by casinos to 86 hustlers.

The other one is checking machines or looking for visual clues to know when to play.

For example, I am walking around and observe that a bank of bonus slots are all at $3.75 (the top bet), then I am not going to check those machines. As a scavenger, I am looking for plays, opportunities for camouflage, taking on prop bets (aka gambling), etc. In essence, I am looking for machines to play and risking my money.

Some lazy, poor trailer trash who is waiting for over 30 minutes (had to move his seat a few times) waiting for a lady to tap out doesn’t realize the eye in the sky is taking notes and a few month later, the vulture gets 86’ed due to complaints. The vulture is too stupid (and/or ignorant) to realize casino patrons do complain to security, management, etc. After enough complaints, the casino just don’t want to deal with it anymore and out they go. Recall, everyone is being filmed or recorded once we are on the casino floor.

So, both words describe similar things and connote a common theme but are really different.

In the wild:
A vulture is waiting for some animal to die so the vulture gets a meal
A scavenger is look for a meal, but that meal could have been left there for a while.

My advice: Don’t be a vulture and piss off the yahoo’s or ploppies of the world. Scavenging is better because the machine is empty, no one is currently playing it, you don’t have to interact with yahoos and just go about your business.

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Amen!

Plus waiting around in a casino to me is one of the most boring, miserable experiences you can have. Much rather head to the next place down the road or even go home and relax.

I get annoyed when people wait for me staring at me hoping I’m going to bust out so they can get the play. In fact a few times on marginal plays or on good plays but at low bets so not huge value, if I am considering walking but I see someone doing that, just as a point of ego I will finish the play regardless of how much time or money it takes.

I think it's too conditional to make generalizations. I'm not one to, "Camp out," within a few chairs of someone, but I'll go far enough away that I can't even be perceived as hassling them. Maybe go to the other side of the casino, go to the bathroom if I need to take a leak, go to the bar and get a pop...etc.

That said, suppose you see someone leave a 10x multiplier on something like $2 denom UX and switch games. You're going to tell me that's not worth sticking around if you're low-level, especially if there might be other stuff on the machine? You can do all kinds of things. Go off and have a smoke, go to the food court and mess about on your phone for fifteen minutes, go play off some free play elsewhere if you have it, etc...

I'm not going to breathe down the person's neck, they'll never know I was waiting out the machine. If the person gets off and someone else who is more aggressive beats me to checking it, then it is what it is. Also, I don't know where anyone else is, but this isn't like Vegas or AC----there aren't so many hustlers/vultures that I always have to worry about missing a play if I'm not there within five minutes of the person getting off the machine. When there are hustlers/vultures, I usually recognize them anyway and know their tendencies. If you're on really good terms with someone, then you can just go and tell them what you saw and offer to chop the action on that machine...now nobody is racing for it or encroaching on a person.

And, the security/observation levels are going to differ from locale to locale and even casino to casino. My main two casinos I've been working for years with no problem.

I do agree about the $3.75 thing, in general, unless you know the tendencies of the other vultures. Most games I'm not going to bother, but one game at one particular casino I know I play more aggressively than someone else does, so I'm going to check it anyway.

When it comes to quick turnaround plays, one thing I see vultures/hustlers do that I don't think is a great idea is play with the card. I kind of get it if it's something like high-limit UX and you somehow know you're going to at least do a couple hundred coin-in, (I still wouldn't) but when you're doing card in/card out on two or three machines all side-by-side-by-side for what might be as low as $10-$20 in action on each, not good. I've seen people who put the card in before they even start checking them.

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Originally Posted by Mission146

I think it's too conditional to make generalizations. I'm not one to, "Camp out," within a few chairs of someone, but I'll go far enough away that I can't even be perceived as hassling them. Maybe go to the other side of the casino, go to the bathroom if I need to take a leak, go to the bar and get a pop...etc.

That said, suppose you see someone leave a 10x multiplier on something like $2 denom UX and switch games. You're going to tell me that's not worth sticking around if you're low-level, especially if there might be other stuff on the machine? You can do all kinds of things. Go off and have a smoke, go to the food court and mess about on your phone for fifteen minutes, go play off some free play elsewhere if you have it, etc...

I'm not going to breathe down the person's neck, they'll never know I was waiting out the machine. If the person gets off and someone else who is more aggressive beats me to checking it, then it is what it is. Also, I don't know where anyone else is, but this isn't like Vegas or AC----there aren't so many hustlers/vultures that I always have to worry about missing a play if I'm not there within five minutes of the person getting off the machine. When there are hustlers/vultures, I usually recognize them anyway and know their tendencies. If you're on really good terms with someone, then you can just go and tell them what you saw and offer to chop the action on that machine...now nobody is racing for it or encroaching on a person.

And, the security/observation levels are going to differ from locale to locale and even casino to casino. My main two casinos I've been working for years with no problem.

I do agree about the $3.75 thing, in general, unless you know the tendencies of the other vultures. Most games I'm not going to bother, but one game at one particular casino I know I play more aggressively than someone else does, so I'm going to check it anyway.

When it comes to quick turnaround plays, one thing I see vultures/hustlers do that I don't think is a great idea is play with the card. I kind of get it if it's something like high-limit UX and you somehow know you're going to at least do a couple hundred coin-in, (I still wouldn't) but when you're doing card in/card out on two or three machines all side-by-side-by-side for what might be as low as $10-$20 in action on each, not good. I've seen people who put the card in before they even start checking them.

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Great points Mission. Agree with them all.

I was referring to people who breathe right down your neck and that’s what I assumed Ex-Ap was referring to.

Im definitely not above playing discretely nearby someone, or walking by frequently to see if a good machine has opened up, but the neck breathers drive me nuts.

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

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Originally Posted by Mission146

I think it's too conditional to make generalizations. I'm not one to, "Camp out," within a few chairs of someone, but I'll go far enough away that I can't even be perceived as hassling them. Maybe go to the other side of the casino, go to the bathroom if I need to take a leak, go to the bar and get a pop...etc.

That said, suppose you see someone leave a 10x multiplier on something like $2 denom UX and switch games. You're going to tell me that's not worth sticking around if you're low-level, especially if there might be other stuff on the machine? You can do all kinds of things. Go off and have a smoke, go to the food court and mess about on your phone for fifteen minutes, go play off some free play elsewhere if you have it, etc...

I'm not going to breathe down the person's neck, they'll never know I was waiting out the machine. If the person gets off and someone else who is more aggressive beats me to checking it, then it is what it is. Also, I don't know where anyone else is, but this isn't like Vegas or AC----there aren't so many hustlers/vultures that I always have to worry about missing a play if I'm not there within five minutes of the person getting off the machine. When there are hustlers/vultures, I usually recognize them anyway and know their tendencies. If you're on really good terms with someone, then you can just go and tell them what you saw and offer to chop the action on that machine...now nobody is racing for it or encroaching on a person.

And, the security/observation levels are going to differ from locale to locale and even casino to casino. My main two casinos I've been working for years with no problem.

I do agree about the $3.75 thing, in general, unless you know the tendencies of the other vultures. Most games I'm not going to bother, but one game at one particular casino I know I play more aggressively than someone else does, so I'm going to check it anyway.

When it comes to quick turnaround plays, one thing I see vultures/hustlers do that I don't think is a great idea is play with the card. I kind of get it if it's something like high-limit UX and you somehow know you're going to at least do a couple hundred coin-in, (I still wouldn't) but when you're doing card in/card out on two or three machines all side-by-side-by-side for what might be as low as $10-$20 in action on each, not good. I've seen people who put the card in before they even start checking them.

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Great points Mission. Agree with them all.

I was referring to people who breathe right down your neck and that’s what I assumed Ex-Ap was referring to.

Im definitely not above playing discretely nearby someone, or walking by frequently to see if a good machine has opened up, but the neck breathers drive me nuts.

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I concur.

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Originally Posted by DGenBen

Great points Mission. Agree with them all.

I was referring to people who breathe right down your neck and that’s what I assumed Ex-Ap was referring to.

Im definitely not above playing discretely nearby someone, or walking by frequently to see if a good machine has opened up, but the neck breathers drive me nuts.

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I have Mission146 on my ignore list.

1. If you walk away, by definition you are not vulturing.

2. Vulturing from inches away to discretely a few feet away. If you vulture from a few feet away, you don’t see the other vulture waiting for the same play as he is doing the same thing as you. When the both of you race the machine, each of you will say: I saw it first or I was waiting (unbeknownst to the other). And you wonder why the casino security gets tired of this constant shit on busy days.

I see fights all the time. I see disagreements. I also see a lot of intimidation. Last night, one hustler raced to the machine almost knocking other yahoos over. The other hustler was slow playing the next machine over and was waiting for the yahoo to get up and leave. Neither hustler knew this was going to happen. The EV of the play was less than $30.

3. How many times are you going to walk around? You are now circling your “prey” or stalking someone. In the eye in the sky, it looks like you are “casing” someone. In my local casino, the person circling is bring unwanted attention. All because of a $2 UX play as an example. And you wonder why the first ones to get 86’ed are the bank-rolled challenged hustlers.

Don’t do it. Just not worth it. Greed is a terrible disease.

Like I said before, I was not surprised by the Peppermill & Atlantis mass barrings. My local casinos 86 hustlers all the time. We will get new hustlers and most will be gone in a few months as well. Once a hustler figures out s/he can make more money by vulturing, s/he magically reappears when there are active players and wanders around the casinos when the machines are dead. It’s the habitual “magical” reappearance and non-willingness to share (they act like they own the machines) that creates stress amongst the hustlers. Some local casinos are reluctant to 86 for life so they start with warnings or short-term barrings like 30-days, but they are also not afraid to drop the lifetime ban hammer.

A few local casinos that hate to 86 will try decontenting first: make the machine less profitable or remove the machines out right. It’s the vultures who are greedy (again it could be a $2 UX play) that brings heat for the rest of us and makes it hard to make money when games get removed. These new hustlers never learned the rules and only read the part where they can make money from bonus machines.

I do not have Ex-AP on my ignore list.

1.) I did not realize that Ex-AP is the sole arbiter of what constitutes vulturing. It doesn't seem to have an official definition that I can find. I just look at it as anyone who is primarily engaged in looking for lowish-risk, quick turnaround plays.

2.) Again, this ignores the market. More often than not, I know if there's even another vulture in the entire casino because I know who they all are. I don't have to do anything from a few feet away and would have no reason to do that. You couldn't have six people working the same casino around here because it would be a pittance in hourly value. Half the time, you can vulture, leave, come back six hours later (on a Friday and Saturday) and the machines will mostly have some stuff again (though not as good as the first time) when they open back up.

Don't worry about him, though, for some reason he really wants me to be wrong about this sort of stuff. I'm not wrong, he's not wrong; it depends on the locale. I couldn't speak to what it's like vulturing in Vegas because I've only been there twice and only occasionally tried to vulture anything. Didn't find much when I did look.

And, I agree about not racing to the machines. But, that almost never happens here. Usually you recognize the other vulture(s) and you just go in on it together, at least, that's my experience around here.

3.) Ex-AP has lost his mind on this one. I don't sit there and just watch people play UX, I'm saying if I happen to see someone switch games and leave something up as I am walking by. I'm not circling anyone.

***If anyone wants to know my playbook, it's pretty simple: My first sweep is to go through and check the vacant machines of the types that I'm looking for. If I have checked a sufficient number of machines...and at this point I can usually tell if another vulture has been there...I might leave completely and try again in a few hours if it's not looking good. If I'm finding a bunch of stuff on the vacant machines, then I might wait for the occupied machines to clear out depending on what specific machines they are and how many of them there are----I AM NOWHERE NEAR THE MACHINES WHEN THIS HAPPENS. I walk to the bathroom on the other side of the casino, if in non-smoking, I go to smoking and have a cigarette. I go sit in the food court for fifteen minutes and screw off on my phone while I wait for machines to open up.

***It's a totally different pace here because there's not that much competition. Honestly, three hustlers/vultures would totally be too many regularly going to one casino around here in one day. Nobody would make much and it wouldn't even be worth the time. It's hardly worth the time now. I don't know if Ex-AP thinks every casino on the planet looks, has the same machines as and the same number of vultures as the ones he goes to, but it's totally different here.

He's talking banhammers. I'm talking, one casino half of security knows me by name and knows exactly what I'm doing there and does not care at all.

I remember when they started first using the term vulturing to describe what they were doing in the first place. I thought how stupid to be using a negative term to describe yourself and others.
Tried to get machine sniping to catch on obviously that didn't work.

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Originally Posted by AxelWolf

I remember when they started first using the term vulturing to describe what they were doing in the first place. I thought how stupid to be using a negative term to describe yourself and others.
Tried to get machine sniping to catch on obviously that didn't work.

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I like, "Vulturing," but I'm the self-effacing type, so I mainly think it's both accurate and funny.

Another thing I will say is that if I was in Ex-AP's market, as a vulture, then I wouldn't even go to the casino. I'm not going to get into situations where I'm having to be three feet away, race for every machine or stuff like that because that would not only fail to be at all enjoyable; it sounds like a thoroughly miserable experience. Being in casinos is not that important to me and I fail to even go as often as I probably should NOW...much less if I absolutely hated what I was doing.

MickeyCrimm described his situation up there and that's the sort of thing that would seem pretty ideal to me. You just hop from place to place and look for the plays, little to no competition, set the pace you want for the day. I guess maybe being tied to the same machine for hours at a time could suck, but it seems like he gets to pick and choose his spots to some extent and does not necessarily have to take every super long turnaround play.*

*And, I'm kind of talking out of my ass based on what MC said about what he does and the situation. I haven't been up there to personally know. Maybe he has to take every single +EV situation he finds, but it doesn't sound like it.