Don't know if this is a mistake, but Harrah's Ak-Chin has a 25X Tier Credit multiplier promotion posted on their site for Dec. 27th.
https://www.caesars.com/harrahs-ak-c...m#.XA93BnNOk0P
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Don't know if this is a mistake, but Harrah's Ak-Chin has a 25X Tier Credit multiplier promotion posted on their site for Dec. 27th.
https://www.caesars.com/harrahs-ak-c...m#.XA93BnNOk0P
Unfortunately it says offer is by invitation only, which prevents new players to come in and literally earn Seven Stars in a day. Too bad.
You might be able to call the property and see if you can be added to the offer. Of course, you're still taking a risk in that you may be told you're added, and you're really not, and you won't know until you get there and swipe.
But yeah, this would be a great avenue to Seven Stars.
You'd just need 5600 base tier credits ($56,000 coin-in at VP) in a day to get to Seven Stars.
That's because 5600 x 25 = 140,000
And you would get 10,000 bonus tiers separate from that, making 150k.
You'd need less if you already have tiers.
The only downside is that this is on December 27, so your Seven Stars would only last until 1/31/20.
If you were to earn it in January, then it would last until 1/31/21!
It is worth noting that the games aren't very good there.
There's a $5 Double Bonus, but that has a lot of variance.
There's a 9-5 JoB, but that is only 98.45% return, so that's kinda brutal.
And then there's the fact that they've degraded Seven Stars a lot starting in 2018.
I'm staying there tonight. One of our friends is having a 20th anniversary party at the new Chop & Brew joint somewhere there, so we're staying in their new high rise. I'm doing something called PAYING for the room since I won't play at Indian casinos.
But....I couldn't think of a worse way to spend your time than trying to get a machine at that place on a day when every yahoo gambler will be there. It's known for always having big crowds. Anybody stupid enuf to make that trip for this promo unless they live in Maricopa/Chandler/Gilbert/Guadalupe/Sun Lakes, would be making a big mistake. But then again, who said gamblers know much?
They have two 10/7 DB dollar machines remaining according to one of my "students".
How much cash would you recommend to have on you in order to make sure you get all the 5600 points, please? is 2K enough?
So I just looked further into this.
Unfortunately, according to vpfree2, the Jacks or Better and Double Bonus games are $25/tier credit. So that's not gonna work.
The only playable game there is the 25-15-9-4-4-3-2-1 Deuces game (known as "LV Airport Deuces"), but these are $1, single-play machines and will take forever. How long? The average player would take about 10 hours to earn 2500 tier credits, so earning 5600 would probably take almost a full 24 hours of play!! Yuck!
What if you were to just deal with the $25/tier credit thing at Double Bonus and play that? Well, those are also single-play, though those are $5. But it would still take awhile. It would probably take about 13 hours of play to earn those 5600, and the variance would be much higher.
Bottom line is that you're not going to get to Seven Stars in a day cheaply at Ak-Chin using video poker.
Sadly, no.
There is a lot of variance involved, AND you would have to play the $5 machines at $25/tier in order to realistically earn 5600 in one day (see the post above).
The royal flush accounts for approximately 2% of payback at these machines. So if you don't hit a royal (which you usually won't when you're only running 56k coin-in at single-play $5 machines), your expected loss is 1.66-2% worse than the theoretical return -- and even worse if you don't play totally perfectly.
Let's look at the Double Bonus situation.
Theoretical return is 99.11%, but royal is 1.67% of that return. Therefore, non-royal return is 97.44%.
To get 5600 tier credits, you'd need to run 5600 x $25 = $140,000 coin-in.
Average expected loss: $140,000 x (1-0.9911) = $1,246
Expected loss if you don't hit a royal: $140,000 x (1-0.9744) = $3,584
Expected WIN if you hit one royal: $20,000 - $3,584 = $16,416
Number of hands required: 5600
Chance of hitting a royal at Double Bonus if played correctly: 1 in 47,619
Chance of hitting AT LEAST ONE ROYAL in 5600 hands: 1 - (47618/47619)^5600 = 0.1109 = 11.1%
Bottom line: You have an 88.9% chance of hitting NO royals doing the above, meaning you would lose $3,584 if you ran completely average in everything else.
What about that dollar deuces game?
Well, it will be tedious and LONG, and you're still a fairly big underdog to hit one or more royals.
To get 5600 tiers, you will have to run $56,000 in coin-in. The game pays 98.91%. The royal accounts for 1.84% of that return, and you'll hit it about once every 43,478 hands. That makes the non-royal return 97.07%.
Average expected loss: $56000 * (1-0.9891) = $610.40
Average expected loss if you hit NO royals: $56,000 * (1-0.9707) = $1640.80
Average expected WIN if you hit one royal: $4000 - $1640.80 = $2359.20
Number of hands required: 11,200
Chance of hitting a royal at Double Bonus if played correctly: 1 in 43,478
Chance of hitting AT LEAST ONE ROYAL in 11,200 hands: 1 - (43477/43478)^11200 = 0.2271 = 22.71%
Still, you're looking at a 77.29% of hitting no royal. And if that happens, you're going to lose $1640.80 on average, and perhaps plenty more if you either run badly or don't play perfectly.
Dan would you run the cost of reaching Seven Stars without the multiplier of this promotion?
At Caesars Palace you also have $25/tier point on full pay VP.
You're missing the true value here: the multiplier. That's IF you were eligible and invited.
My calculations were including the multiplier.
I am not going to renew Seven Stars for 2019.
In your hypothetical question, if I were renewing Seven Stars, and IF I were eligible, then yes, I would still go to Ak-Chin and do this. I would probably just suck it up and do the 99.11% Double Bonus machine, though the variance would be brutal with $140k coin-in needed.
If I wanted a lesser variance, I suppose I could just run as much as I could stand at the $1 Deuces machine.
I talked to one of the managers there and according to her, all VP machines are 10$ for 1TP (email attached). Also, it seems that anyone can participate. I asked their TR desk and they said that all you have to do is to show up and and register for the promotion at their kiosks. Their direct phone number is (480)-802-5072.
In oder to decrease the variance, one should play multiple lines. Variance decreases as 1/sqrt(N), where N is the number of .. For a 100 multiline, volatility is reduced by 10. It also increases the chances of hitting royals. Casinos know this and they offer reduced pay-tables on multi-lines. For the purpose of this promotion, where achieving the tier credits with 2k bankroll is a must, is it worth to play downgraded pay table multilines or better odds single lines?
If you go, please check if those machines I mentioned are $10/tier or $25/tier. It's possible something changed, but it's also possible that this woman doesn't know what she's talking about.
FYI she's correct that there are no multiplay machines.
In fact, there are only 24 decent machines in the whole joint, so you might want to get there early.
Just a thought... even if they have 7/5 Bonus Poker at $1/coin it's no worse than what you'll find at Caesars Palace and you'll be getting the multiplier on the tier points. If you want to make Diamond in an hour or Seven Stars in a day this is ideal. I just don't understand why you're making a big deal over what amounts to pennies when the prize is a cheap way to get tier points.
When I was at ak-chin Wed. night I saw no mention of this promotion so I asked. Anyone can play it on the 27th--just swipe and go play. The "invitations" are mailers for out-of-town guests. You can only play it for the 16 busiest hours of the day and since most of the big aerospace and other companies around here are closed that week, that casino will be saturated.
I don't know where the vpfree info comes from but I found the two $1 10/7db machines there. Old uprights.
Aside from this pointless promotion because it's not realistic to think you can just waltz in and play what you choose on a day like that.....the place is really nice since the new parts were opened. The "high tower" rooms are classy and comfortable, and the Chop Block and Brew restaurant off the lobby was excellent. This is overall the nicest most welcoming Harrahs I've visited, and I've been to most or all of them around the country.
TR Ak-Chin told me that the actual promotion extends to the whole gaming day, from 6am to 5:59am and that it is only the registration period that runs from 8am to 11:59pm. In other words, you can play all day, but you must swipe in that 16h window to get the multiplier.
I spotted a multi-play machine on their webpage. It shows a 5-play which should reduce the ROR. Would anyone know what the paytable is, please?
Why are you getting all hot and bothered over this? You will NEVER get the machine you think you want anyway. Have you ever been there? And you actually believe what someone told you over the phone who says they asked their collection of "I wanna go home at 5" slot attendants?
OMG
Multiple employees of the casino told me the same thing, that absolutely all of their machines are 10$ to 1TP. Does anyone dispute this? Part of posting on a forum is for information to get corrected by other members if the said information is not true or entirely accurate. For example, we corrected the info that the promotion was for "invited" players only.
I live in Vegas 365 days/year and having the 7* card would largely compensate the losses from a sub-optimal machine. And the promotion runs for 24h, do you think players can occupy a machine for an entire day? Also. people from where I'm from are said to have "pointy" elbows :)
Skyscanner, your attachment didn't work. Can you re-upload it?
The tier credit thing will be easy to see after a few hands. You might be right, but employees at Caesars properties are notoriously clueless, so I'd take everything they tell you with a grain of salt. I'm even still semi-skeptical that anyone can play this. I'm also skeptical about the promo running the entire gaming day.
I still have an outside interest in doing this, even though 7* benefits are shit nowadays. Depends if these machines you think you've found are really there. It's possible that the 5 play machine has such crappy paytables that they wouldn't be worth playing, even with the reduced variance.
Also note that the variance isn't as reduced as you think. It just shifts around. The variance of the draw goes way down, but the variance of the deal goes way up.
Rob, you are from that area. Could you perhaps find some time to go down there and track down if these machines still exist (such as the 10-7 ddb you claim), as well as look at the $25/tier thing?
Hell, Rob, I'll even meet you in person if I come down there. It's probably too late to get a room, since that employee told skyscanner that they're sold out, but I can just grab a cheap place nearby and stay only one night. Basically I'll drive down there late at night on the 26th, grab the best machines at 6am sharp, hammer the amount of play I want, then go to hotel and sleep, and then drive back to LA.
Skyscanner, if I do come down, we can even run this stuff together and protect each other's machines.
But I'd love to know the truth here.
We're going over to San Diego so I'll go there on Wed. and let you guys know. I'll get pics of anything worthy. A good excuse to go back to their steakhouse. They do have a history of shutting down or taking out certain machines at the 11th hour when they have big promotions such as this one, so there might be that to deal with. And like I mentioned, that place will be absolutely overrun with players that day--unlike anywhere you've been. You'll be lucky to find an open nickel machine.
We're going to Tahoe on the 24th until New Years, so I wouldn't be able to meet you at ak chin.
Rob, I know that I criticize you a lot, but I legitimately would appreciate any assistance you could provide in this situation. Yes, when you go down, please post pictures of paytables and the machine itself so we can see, and this will prevent people from making accusations that the claims are fake.
Regarding it being overrun with players, yes, that will happen for sure. But I think being there first thing in the morning is the key. Showing up at 3pm isn't going to work for this promotion.
Even if those machines do exist, which they may or may not be pulled for this promotion, good luck getting on them. If Ak-Chin is like most CET properties they will reserve machines for their best customers. So even if you are there ready to play when this promotion starts I would bet that there will be someone on them or a reserve sign holding it for another well connected local Ak-Chin diamond or 7 star cardholder.
Sure I'll do what I can. I don't know why whatever source claims there are no multi-plays either. The new non smoking section has them. I didn't notice any elsewhere since I wasn't specifically looking for them, but I can't imagine there being none. Also, I don't believe you'll find any of the pay tables you like, but I'll take pics.
My children and grandchildren don't criticize me. A balanced life is a good life.
It is on the webpage of the casino, in the Slots section
https://www.caesars.com/harrahs-ak-c...s#.XBbJO2hKhhE
I was thinking that it might be good idea to have a back-up plan, since Rob Singer may well be right and all the good machines may be taken by others or simply unavailable for the promotion.
Do you guys know how you are rated in roulette? Say you keep making 50$ bets on black all the time, your expected loss would be 5%. Or if you wagered on all 38 numbers? This would GUARANTEE a 5% loss. Would they give you the 5K TP if you circulated $50K in this way? 2.5k$ for 7* is way worth it IMHO.
Don't bother with any non-machine play for this promotion. You will earn tier credits very slowly.
The trick is to show up at 5:30am on the day of the promotion, track down the desired machine, and camp out there until 6am. Then do not leave it without an employee locking it for you (or a friend/playing partner holding it for you) -- even to go to the bathroom.
Regarding the multi-play machine shown in that picture, the problem is that it may have a crap paytable.
vpfree2.com only lists games which are okayish or better.
So if the multiplay is 7-5 Jacks or Better, that's why it wouldn't be listed (but it also wouldn't be worth running, even for this promo).
It's also possible that these are new machines, and vpfree2 hasn't caught up yet.
You don't want table play. TR is notorious for awarding low amounts of points for table play.
Actually your best option would be a high return slot machine even if there were no big jackpot. In other words you want to grind thru your money with a return as close as possible to 100% just to get points.
Is there any slot known for this?
You can count on abysmal pay tables even at higher limits on their multi-plays, but I will get a few pics. I don't play there but I've looked at some pay tables on their single line machines. 6/5 and 7/5 bp, 7/5 and 8/5 ddbp and job, stuff like that. Plus those two oddball 10/7 dbp dollar machines.
You may want to get there the day before and lock down a machine if you think it's worth it. I don't think 5:30am will cut it for something like this on a full hotel/vacation day such as that.
Rob if they have 7/5 Bonus Poker with $10 coin in for one tier credit it makes sense to play at AK Chin instead of at,Caesars. Caesars also has one tier point for each $10 coin in on 7/5 Bonus but Caesars doesn't have a 25x multiplier. It's that multiplier that is the big factor here.
SOMETHING ELSE IS MISSING. At Caesars one tier point equals one reward credit for comps. So a question: are the REWARD CREDITS also multiplied 25x?
If so, how does that change the attractiveness of this offer?
No, Alan, the reward credits are not multiplied.
If you can’t figure out “how that changes the attractiveness of the offer”, nobody can help you.
I just looked at the offer again and there's nothing about reward credits. Since reward credits are based on tier points I'd like someone to confirm whether or not RCs are also multiplied.
Dankyone what is your source for saying RCs are not multiplied when the entire TR system uses TCs to determine RCs?
That's my point Dankyone. Whenever you look at the rules of TR it says that you get one RC for each TC. There are never stipulations for earning RCs. So I'm wondering if indeed the RCs are being multiplied as well.
Stop being so Danky. Since there are some people here who are in contact with the casino they should ask. So far this has been overlooked.
(Danky: hateful)
Let them ask. The CET employees will be clueless as usual. As it says in damn promo picture, tier credits will be multiplied. Not RCs.
Danky do me a favor. Since you don't know the answer let someone ask who just might find the answer. I realize this means you won't have a chance to troll me, and I'm sorry you'll lose points with my other trolls, but I'm asking a valid question.
Sometimes... just sometimes... we do get some worthwhile info here between the attacks and the insults.
https://totalrewards.custhelp.com/ap...UyMSUyMQ%3D%3D
I went to Caesar's Palace last night and I found a machine similar to the one depicted on the website of Ak Chin. It has 3, 5 and 10 play and the game with the least variance is BP with a 6/5. I am assuming the one at Ak-Chin can't be any worse than that.6/5 BP yields 96.87% return. Playing 10 hands at 12.5$ will require 4k hands to reach 5,000 TCs. Should be doable in less than 8h. Discarding the royal and getting an EV of 95%, this means an average loss of 2.5K$. For what bankroll do we have a RoR in the single digits though? It's a 10 play...
Alan, I do know the answer.
I have never seen them give RCs for TP bonuses.
You actually need 5600 TCs.
6/5 bonus sucks. It sucks both for variance and overall payout.
However, I wouldn't necessarily conclude that the paytable would be the same at Ak-Chin as it is at Caesars. You can actually call into Ak-Chin and perhaps get someone nice enough to go look for you. I did this at Harrah's Rincon in March 2015 prior to going. Asking about paytables is fine. It's not like calling a slot tech/manager and asking about some wrongly-set machine which is currently an advantage play. They are aware that there are plenty of recreational gamblers who care about paytables.
The royal on that game is 1.99%, meaning you will only return 94.88% on average if you don't hit one.
Losing 5.12% is $2867 on average, but that's if you don't run bad, which you easily could by failing to get your share of good dealt hands. (I got destroyed at 5x$1 Jacks or Better machines at Tahoe last year, due to this exact problem.)
Provided the 99.11% and 98.34% machines are really $10/tier, I'd prefer to take my chances on those rather than running a multi-play 6-5 bonus poker.
That's right I never earned RC bonuses on those tier point bonuses of 5,000. But this is a 25x bonus of actual tier points earned -- it is not an addition of tier points later. Do you see the difference? This is why I SUGGESTED that someone inquire about it. But in true forum fashion everyone else seems to know the answer. No one wants to ask. Okay... don't ask.
It is an addition of tier points later.
You aren't earning the 25x tier credits on that day. You're earning regular tier credits at the time, and sometime later on, they're adding 24x what you earned into your account.
You aren't getting RCs. Not even worth asking.
Well excuuuuse me.
I'm going to call Ak-Chin tomorrow and ask them about this. Maybe I can talk someone into going and taking a look at the paytables of the multi-play machines, and also having them go over to the $5 DB machines and making sure they're really $10/tier.
I'm in the process of obtaining some machine information at Ak-Chin.
In the meantime, I looked up rooms at both Ak-Chin and the immediate area.
There ARE rooms available at the hotel for the night of the 26th, but they are very expensive -- about $300+tax, and even as a Seven Stars, they're still $280+tax. They're sold out on the 27th.
So no thanks.
Fortunately, there are okayish hotels in nearby areas like Chandler (about 17 miles away, northeast), so that's what I'd be doing if I decide to go. I suppose I could try to negotiate a casino rate and then a comp-after-playing (since I will be cycling a lot of $ in the machines), but these CET properties have always been bitchy about that, where they won't tell you how much you have to play in order to earn it, and they try to refuse you in order to entice you to play more.
I ran into that shit at Rincon about 4 years ago, and then again at Tahoe 2 years ago.
Anyway, Rob, are you still planning upon going today?
Won't you get a minimum of $50 in comps from your play? Wouldn't that bring the cost of the room down to $230, and compare that to the cost of the hotel 17 miles away. The "foreign" hotel has zero chance of casino comps while you do have a chance for substantial comps at AK Chin. Isn't going to the other hotel penny wise and pound foolish... considering you'll be pumping thousands thru a video poker machine?
RCs are not "comps". They have other values, and in fact can be exchanged for freeplay (albeit at a lousy rate).
So, no, I would not want to waste the $56 I earn in RCs on the hotel at Ak-Chin, since I can use it elsewhere at another time for food or whatever else.
The amount I'd be pumping through the machine is immaterial.
The question I need to ask myself is, "Is it worth it to me to spend an extra $200 on the Ak-Chin hotel, rather than driving 16 miles from a hotel nearby."
The answer is a big NO.
I will be happy to drive 16 miles anywhere at any time if $200 is waiting for me on the other end.
You do raise a fair point that maybe I'll get the room back-end comped at Ak-Chin, whereas at another hotel there's no chance of that.
However, I need the hotel more on the 27th than I do the 26th, and Ak-Chin is sold out on the 27th. So it's a moot point. I might ask Ak-Chin if they do have some rooms they're holding back for Seven Stars.
Don't you have hundreds if not several thousand dollars of Reward Credits banked? If so, what's the point of using US dollars before using RCs?
Because the RCs are worth money?
I'd rather save them for when I need them -- namely when I stay at the Rio during WSOP, for both food and hotel charges.
No point to waste hundreds of $ on an Ak-Chin room when I can get a cheap one at a decent hotel 16 miles away.
Dan my point is why would you ever spend US dollars before spending RCs?
Reward Credits come with liabilities including possible devaluation. What's worse for you is that because you have RCs in your "bank" you will have a problem getting comps from a host.
In fact you have a history of not getting comps and I wonder if it's because you do keep hundreds and hundreds of dollars of Reward Credits banked.
Two points:
We're postponing our trip to San Diego until Jan. because our son and his family came in yesterday for a surprise visit to help solve a problem they're facing. (yes, every family has these things now and then--even mine). So I'm sorry Dan I won't be at ak-chin tonight. It's only 65 miles from here but after the first ten miles it's like going thru LA-type rush hour traffic day or night and it's just not worth it since there's no quick back and forth.
There is another Indian casino maybe 15-20 miles away that you might get a decent rate at. Gila River/Wild Horse Pass. Or you could find something like you're looking at in Chandler etc.
Too bad you don't have an RV :)
Hi Dan:
I agree it makes sense for you to stay at a local/cheap motel near Ak-Chin. Assuming you have a significant reservoir of Reward Credits, it is not a useful plan to try to get discretionary back end comps. If you recall CET has an annoying requirement that your hard earned Reward Credits be extinguished prior to any allocation of discretionary comps. So you will never be getting a "free" room unless you have an existing marketing offer.
FAB
Let me translate this.
Rob.Singer has run out of gas money for the month and his son refused to spot him a few bucks because dear old dad still hasn't chipped in on the electricity and WiFi he has been mooching in the driveway. If you had a broke ass camper truck (aka an RV) you would be home by now. No commuting necessary.
I'm having a hard time believing Caesars will follow thru on the multiplier when and if a couple dozen people do 7 Stars in a day.
You forgot to add that the wife left me, my retreads on the 35-yr. old camper gave out last month, the law is after me for drunk and disorderly, and my two penis extensions are acting up so I can't just pee anywhere. :)
But Dan is welcome to stay at either of our houses if he doesn't mind traffic.
Rob I think you just made the ultimate challenge: offering Dan to stay at either of your houses. This cannot be passed up by Dan.
I think you're right -- sort of. They'll follow through on the multiplier, but just leave these people at "high Diamond".
Recall this e-mail someone received when attempting to become Seven Stars:
https://vegascasinotalk.com/forum/at...achmentid=2073
This may very well happen to anyone who earns the vast majority of tier credits through this promo.
It's possible mine would go easier (since I'm just maintaining Seven Stars, rather than "upgrading" to it), but I could easily see Seven Stars being denied.
I may not do this after all.
#s 3 and 4 are new news, correct? I don't recall ever hearing those two criteria mentioned anywhere. All I ever heard were the first two, both here and the casino sources I had.
Those two criteria lend a lot of uncertainty to achieving Seven Stars - not to the nebulous level of Noir, but no longer the sure thing it used to be.
I agree - you should think twice about going to Ak-Chin, especially due to #4.
Regarding the invitation to 7* and the Ak-Chin promotion, I spoke to 3 Las Vegas hosts today.
Host 1 said getting upgraded to 7* via this promotion would be very unfair to the other 99% of Seven Stars players who drop half a million per year in the casinos. Advised me to ask the Ak-Chin to upgrade me, as it is unlikely any Las Vegas casino would.
Host 2 looked at the promotion in detail and mentioned several Diamond players she has with more that 150K TPs will never receive the invitation because of the issue of the credit lines. I learned that it would be my dominant property (the Rio) that would or would not send me the invitation to 7* and not the Ak-Chin. More specifically, it is the VP for marketing that would make the decision.
Host 3 said that if there were no multipliers, no one would reach 7*, and that I would definitely receive the invitation. She said I had some negative comments from the Rio in 2017 for not playing much, but that my account is in no way suspended, it is just "upside down" for taking too much advantage of my comps and not playing, but that earning 5,000 TPs in a day would revert that.
I also called Total Rewards Central and they said that 7* is an exclusive club, by invitation only and that they will look at my "overall play and activity at the property" before upgrading me.
A bunch of interesting and useful info on this thread!
I am going to Ak-Chin for the event. I have been a very low level (gold TR) blackjack player for years. My mom has been 7* for years and has been trying to convince me to become 7*. A couple of months ago I decided to go for it because we live very close to Harrahs So Cal and could take full advange of free daily buffets and all the food comps. So I did my research and learned that VP is the best way to earn TC so I have been playing VP at So Cal for a couple of months taking advantage of TC matches and I am now over 50,000 TC. My mom heard about the Ak-Chin promo and so I decided to go there and earn 7*. I have been scouring the internet for info and here are some areas where info is contradictory or unknown about the event:
1) some reported here that all TC from that day including 25x bonus would apply to making 7* in 2018. On the Seven Stars Insider site it is explicitly stated that the TC bonus would apply toward 2019. That site is usually pretty accurate so now which do we think is true?
2) I still don’t know if it takes $25 in to earn one TC in the better paying VP machines - from every thing I have read this is not uncommon at CER properties. At So Cal you get 1 TC/$10 for ALL VP machines whereas slots are 1 TC/$5
3) something that hasn’t been brought up at all - at So Cal whenever they do RC bonuses, VP is always capped at 5X no matter what the slot bonus is. One night I could have gotten 12x RC if I was playing slots but only 5x for VP. I am wondering if they would stoop so low as to put some cap like that on VP TC multiplier the day of the event?
4). The whole idea that they could decide to deny 7* really threw me. What do you guys think? Since I only have been playing heavy for a couple of months and have never even reached platinum before and since my home casino is So Cal do you think they’ll deny me entry into 7*? During the last couple of months since I have really been going aggressively for TC I have only lost about $800.
5) I am also concerned that all the machines will be reserved and it wont matter what time you get there in the AM. As a Diamond I can also reserve machines although I have never done it before - should I try to reserve a machine?
Again, thanks for all the great info and I hope we can get all the details nailed down before we get there!
This thing about being denied Seven Stars despite having earned 150.000 tier points is relatively new and it's really not clear if this is widespread or just something that happened to one person.
I've always been under the impression that if you had the points you got Seven Stars unless you had a real problem such as failing to pay markers or getting into a physical fight with casino staff... serious stuff. While Seven Stars has always said it was by invitation I thought everyone got invited.
I'd really like to see more evidence of a sea change in the Seven Stars program. I already know I won't be Seven Stars in 2019 because I have had zero play at Caesars this entire year. But I've already confirmed I will be high diamond in 2019 because of play in December 2017 which gave me 2018 points.
Bottom line is you're going to have to investigate this yourself and make your own decision.
How long can people play for? I think people can and do play for 24 hours or even longer. All that's needed is a nearby floor person to guard your machine while you take a restroom break and a cocktail waitress to bring you water and glasses of OJ to keep your blood sugar up.
The more this goes on the more misinformation appears.
I have a friend in Mesa who is a current Seven Stars and I called him last night to discuss this stupid promotion as well as a few other things. I've been that level around 2012 so I wanted to see if anything has seriously changed too.
7-Stars is not by invitation only and has never been. Where did that lie come from?
You never ask hosts in another city about a promotion going on somewhere else in the CET family of casinos and expect to get intelligent information. A real head-shaker.
It's well known ak-chin has relatively few vp machines, and all but 2 (if they're still there) have pathetic pay tables. No one in their right mind would bother with this event. In case no one knows, the Phx. area (and ESPECIALLY down there near Maricopa) is now completely saturated with people. Why would any of you think you could just waltz into town and to a casino who's hotel is nearby millions of people who mostly make lots of money and has been sold out on that date for a long time....and get a vp machine at will or even be able to reserve one? And who reserves machines with 6/5 BP, 8/5 DDBP, and 7/5 job anyway?
You people do like to dream and not think.
Off topic, but you won't be "High Diamond" in 2019. You will just be Diamond. High Diamond (Aspirations) only applies for the current calendar year that you earned it.
For example, I believe you will not be able to access Diamond lounges if you did not earn 25k tier points in 2018.
My points earned in December 2017 gave me 41,000 points for 2018.
You want a good laugh?
I called Ak-Chin on Tuesday night and got a very nice woman in the slot department. I actually talked her into going and checking several machines, including the multi-plays, and sending me the info.
She then tasked some other employee to do it, who screwed up and only noted the machine number and whether it was 1, 3, 5, or 10 pay, but not the paytables. This guy made a PDF file with that information.
She received this minutes before she was leaving to go home, and then called me and told me of the mistake, but told me that she would send what they had anyway, and would try to hand-write in the paytables. However, she would re-organize the document and send me a much better one on Wednesday.
I was very grateful and thanked her profusely. Upon seeing the document, it was a mess and very hard to understand. However, knowing she was going to re-organize it, I politely asked for her to also list a few other elements of the pay table, and not just the flush/full house, for Bonus Poker and Deuces.
She didn't respond on Wednesday.
I sent her an e-mail politely asking if she got my previous e-mail, and still no response.
I have a feeling that someone told her she was giving away too much info, and not to answer me. It's so weird how she went from super helpful (to the point of making a PDF file of a table of machines) to totally ghosting me.
I noticed the person who wrote to skyscanner listed the flush/full house paytables also, and left out some relevant info as well.
Interesting about the $35/spin limit in Arizona. I didn't know about that.
Regarding whether you will be granted Seven Stars, that's pretty much impossible to determine at this point, as evidenced by the extremely varied answers received by skyscanner when he talked to three different hosts in Vegas.
It's typical Caesars -- nobody knows what's going on, and half the time you're getting completely incorrect info.
I'll go over your chances of being "approved" for Seven Stars through this play, based upon your existing status:
If you earned 150,000 tiers or more in 2017, and you were somewhat actively playing in 2018, your chances of being approved for Seven Stars renewal is VERY GOOD. This is because there was no "lapse" in earning. You will have earned 150k tiers in consecutive years, you played somewhat actively in between, and the decision will simply be to maintain your Seven Stars, rather than promote you.
If you earned 150,000 tiers or more in 2017, but were mostly inactive in 2018 until this promotion, your chances of being approved for Seven Stars renewal are MEDIOCRE. On one hand, you will have earned 150k tiers in consecutive years without a lapse, but on the other hand, they will see a clear pattern of barely playing enough to earn Seven Stars, then shutting down play, and then barely earning Seven Stars again at the 11th hour, via a multiplier promotion. There is a fair chance they will see you as an earn-then-quit player, and may deny you, especially since 2018's earnings would only be based on 5600 base tier credits (barely enough for Diamond in most cases!)
If you were not Seven Stars in 2018, but were mostly active in 2018 until this promotion, your chances of being approved for Seven Stars renewal are MEDIOCRE. On one hand, you don't show a pattern of earning Seven Stars and then shutting down. You also show a history of normally active play, but not enough for Seven Stars. Unfortunately, they might not want to grant you "new" Seven Stars based upon tiers earned via a 25x promotion, so you might be denied.
If you were not Seven Stars in 2018, and had little play this year until this promotion, your chances of being approved for Seven Stars are LOW. They probably will not want to crown a new Seven Stars based upon this play alone. The one exception is if your dominant property is Ak-Chin anyway, since it's their promotion, and since they probably don't give a crap about promoting Caesars Seven Stars unjustifiably, since they are not part of the Caesars corporation.
So who makes the decision?
Unfortunately, it's a supervisor at your dominant property.
And it's very hit-and-miss.
Some supervisors are lazy and just rubber stamp anyone to Seven Stars who have the 150k tiers and no issues in their history (such as unpaid markers or security incidents).
Other supervisors scrutinize it and deny people based upon the perception that they're bonus/comp whores.
There's also some degree of luck, regarding how busy the supervisor is on that particular day.
Unfortunately, if that report I posted earlier from September 2018 is credible, they are starting to scrutinize Seven Stars applications more this year, perhaps in line with the new attitude that they are trying to get rid of the 20% of customers who are "unprofitable".
It is very possible that supervisors are now under pressure to carefully look at the recent history of anyone looking to get Seven Stars granted or renewed, and to deny anyone without a consistent play history and good ADT (average daily theoretical).
Remember, the program is constantly changing. In 2018, they removed the most valuable Seven Stars benefit -- the guaranteed free 4 night stay at any time.
It is also important to ask yourself WHY you want to be Seven Stars, as opposed to just Diamond.
If it's for better offers/freeplay, don't bother. Being Seven Stars will not improve that. That's based upon your ADT and MDV (marketing daily value), and has nothing to do with tiers.
If it's for more room comps, don't bother. Once again, that's based on your ADT/MDV, and not your tier level.
If it's to avoid resort fees, it might be worth something. Diamond only allows you to avoid resort fees, but doesn't always get you free internet. Seven Stars avoids the resort fees AND gets you free internet (plus one movie per day).
If it's to get free room upgrades, it might be worth something. However, note that they will only upgrade Seven Stars to the best available non-suite. If you're looking for suite upgrades, being Seven Stars won't help you that much, unless your ADT/MDV are good, too.
If it's to skip lines, don't bother. Diamond will accomplish that just as well.
If it's to access lounges, don't bother in most markets. Diamond at 25k tiers or higher will get you into those lounges (except in a few places with specific Seven Stars lounges).
If it's to get the "free" cruise, I understand. However, note that the cruise is NOT free, and instead is just heavily discounted. You will probably only save about $600 or so per person on fare ($1200 total).
If it's to get the $500 in food vouchers, I understand. But be aware that it's still only worth $500 at most, so not worth losing a ton of money to earn.
If it's to get the $1200 airfare and $500 folio credit (or alternately, the 50,000 RCs) for the annual trip, I understand. However, again, be aware that this is worth at most $1700, and you have to spend it on airfare and food.
If you simply want the status where exceptions are made for you and favors are done for you sometimes, I understand. But be aware that there are limits to this, and you only can really use the "I'm a Seven Stars, help me out here" line for small exceptions to rules or small favors.
BOTTOM LINE: Do not think that earning Seven Stars is going to suddenly entitle you to lavish comps, countless free suites, and amazing offers. It won't.
Dan I really don't think you are in any position whatsoever to tell people if they will or won't make Seven Stars based on this promotion or if their play will be judged accordingly to frequency, etc.
There has been nothing but rumour about changes to the Seven Stars program and there has been just one email that has gotten all the attention.
The fair and honest thing to say is there are rumours and no one really knows if there are changes or no changes. There could be changes and that's a fair warning to consider.
The fact is that Seven Stars was ALWAYS promoted as an invitation only benefit, BUT IN REALITY if you got the points you got Seven Stars. Now, is that changing? We really don't know.
About that email that's getting so much attention: that could have been a polite way to tell a player with "other problems" that their Seven Stars is not being renewed and for LEGAL REASONS the casino manager is not putting the "real reasons" in the email.
The best advice is to be aware of possible changes and Seven Stars is a comp and you should never play for comps.
From the crude table they sent me, I may have been able to identify a single $1 five-play machine ($25/hand) with:
9-5 JoB (98.45%)
6-5 BP (96.87%)
4-3 Deuces (unknown %, I need to know other payouts)
If that's the case, running the 9-5 JoB wouldn't be horrible, though I'd prefer the 25/15/9/4/4/3 Deuces (98.91%) for both payout and variance reasons. I know that Deuces exists there, but supposedly it's only $1 one-play, so the multiplay deuces may be worse.
If you do run the 9-5 JoB, note that the non-royal return is just 96.46%, and the non-royal-and-straight-flush return is just 95.92%.
That means if you run $56,000 coin-in and fail to hit a royal or straight flush (which can EASILY happen running just 2240 multiway hands), then your average loss would be $2285. And you could easily drop over $3k if you run bad, and over $5k if you run really bad.
For reference, you will hit a straight flush about once every 9300 hands, and a royal about once every 40,000 hands. Obviously doing 5-play increases your odds (not sure by how much, never worked that out), but it's actually a lot MORE variance than running 5 times as many single-play hands. This is because 5-play places a huge reliance on getting dealt good hands, and the smoother variance on the draw part doesn't make up for it enough.
Anyway, I believe it is more likely than not that when running 2240 five-play hands, you will fail to get either a straight flush or a royal.
Obviously things are changing, and I'm only taking a guess. That's why I'm saying things like "VERY GOOD", "MEDIOCRE", "LOW", etc. Notice that none of that involves certainty.
I think it's important for people to understand that there is a difference between their likelihood for approval, based upon their existing circumstances.
I would NOT recommend an inactive player showing up for this promo, earning 150k tiers through the multiplier, and expecting Seven Stars out of it.
An existing Seven Stars who has played fairly actively but still only earned 75k prior to this likely has a pretty good chance of being renewed.
I'm trying to set realistic expectations. I don't have a crystal ball and can only guess from what I've seen in the past.
Regarding that e-mail I posted from the guy who got rejected for Seven Stars, it is possible that he's one of those Atlantic City super comp whores. There are some people in the AC market who literally live at CET properties by getting a second person to also earn Seven Stars, and alternating bookings every 4 days. Then they stay in the room together all year. Sounds like a miserable existence, huh?
Anyway, it's because of people like that why they killed the room benefit.
If this dude is one of those guys, I can see why they would have denied his re-earning of Seven Stars.
However, I don't understand why he would have earned it in September, as that is sub-optimal, and not what you'd expect of a comp whore.
I don't think he had other issues at the property. I do believe it was likely due to some form of comp abuse and little play outside of the earning of the status.
I also think the e-mail is likely authentic, for reasons I won't bother getting into.
There is also the concern that the place is going to get mobbed and all the decent and semi-decent VP machines will be hogged the entire day.
That would be a real pisser to travel all the way there and find that.
This is likely the biggest potential problem with showing up for this promo.
Being realistic, the #1 benefit of Seven Stars in the past was the free room benefit. Once that was restricted the value of Seven Stars dropped dramatically.