Are machines random ? Comments from around our country.

I was browsing videopoker.com and came upon this discussion: (Read on 4 pages)

http://forum.videopoker.com/forum/fo...?TID=4952&PN=1

I have read what Alan and others have posted here and I do believe something has changed. Mr Dancer asserts it is we the uneducated novices without the ability to 'get it' which is generally insulting. From the sequence of cards, super fast flip/draw of that 5th card of the same value - something is not right. Some internal program/update/circuit that simply has been changed out in virtually all the games ?

You see those kind of comments all the time. I can't tell you how many times I've people complain the machines don't pay back like they used to. I've been hearing this for over a decade.

Just look at Alan's situation. He had a huge RF drought last year and may have been suspicious himself. Ask him now ... what is it Alan, 8 RFs this year? This is the natural variance of VP and the people who play regularly are not surprised. I've had many good and bad streaks myself.

As for the 5th card flip-over controversy ... that's Singer again spouting nonsense. When he was pressed to actually count the number of flip-overs it turned out to be right on the expected number.

It was a 170-thousand hand drought of royals, and so far six this year. I never thought the machines were rigged. I just had rotten bad luck.

Even in live poker, there is the argument that cards are not random and in this case the players are talking about the automatic shufflers and/or the dealers. For the record, I've never played with a live dealer who I suspect dealt from the bottom of the deck or did anything else malicious. I have no reason to doubt the automatic shufflers either.

One of the guys I frequently play with told me about how they "tested" an automatic shuffler by taking a new deck with cards in sequence, inserted the deck into the automatic shuffler, and after the normal "shuffle" the deck appeared to be in a total random "mess." At the same time, a dealer also shuffled a deck that was "sequential" and the shuffle by the dealer did not have the "mess" that the machine had. Some of the problems with the "human shuffle" is that cards would stick together.

If someone has proof that the RNG in a video poker machine is not random, I want to see the proof and then I want to see that this wasn't a defective machine. Could there be a machine with a non randomizing RNG? Sure there could But I don't think the industry designs the machines that way.

I'm averaging a shade over 3 royals a year for 8 years playing very limited amounts of time. I'd say that other than the lowering of pay tables, nothing has changed.

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Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

I'm averaging a shade over 3 royals a year for 8 years playing very limited amounts of time. I'd say that other than the lowering of pay tables, nothing has changed.

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Question for you, Vic: If the paytables were lowered but you are still averaging a shade over 3 royals a year, are you winning less, more or the same despite the lowering of pay tables??

The removal of good paying games in Vegas did have an affect on my results for the last year I was there. Of course, I had found some very good plays which many people did not know existed so I was in a unique position. Most of those plays disappeared that very year.

Those who play progressives, like Frank, can still find good opportunities but I'm sure there are not as many.

At least my play now (OEJs) has not changed in several years so I'm still doing fine with it. That could change at any time (and will eventually as the machines are now 15 years old).

I think what happens is fairly easy to understand. A certain percentage of new VP players are quite lucky to begin with. Let's say the number is 20% per year. These folks think their success is "normal" or they have outsmarted the casino. They join vp forums and talk about their success. Eventually, the luck goes the other way and they start losing. This is when they start making claims about the machines changing. Since they didn't understand their original success was pure luck they don't understand the turn around is just bad luck and it happens to everyone.

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Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

I'm averaging a shade over 3 royals a year for 8 years playing very limited amounts of time. I'd say that other than the lowering of pay tables, nothing has changed.

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I'm with you on this. There's no need for a long discussion like on videopoker.com, all that does is bring out the condescending comments by the person who most wants and needs there to be nothing different so his business can keep going, Dancer. No one can tell if the machines are rigged, tightened, loosened, or changed any way. So people who say they are or say they aren't, are only telling you what they hope. And please, don't reel out those regulations because even I know we only get to see what they want us to see, unless to you it's my Government right or wrong.

Absolutely hilarious, tool. I think Singer has said almost the exact same thing 100 times. Anyone who doubts Singer typed these words is quite gullible.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Question for you, Vic: If the paytables were lowered but you are still averaging a shade over 3 royals a year, are you winning less, more or the same despite the lowering of pay tables??

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In the early years of playing VP, when the tables were more generous, I wasn't winning because I believe I was still in the newbie stages of learning the various games. Making sound decisions can extend one's play time. It may not appear to be an appreciable amount of time that you gain, but there can be no dispute that you'll never hit a royal if you're not in the chair.

The lowering of the tables might have been a factor, but to offset that, I got better at what I was doing. As movie mogul Samuel Goldwyn said "The harder I work, the luckier I get".

And it all could reverse itself in a blink of an eye.

I think this line of yours Vic is very interesting:

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Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

And it all could reverse itself in a blink of an eye.

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Does this line indicate that you accept or reject the concept that the long term math tells you how you will do? Or are you suggesting that there is another factor besides the long term math contained in the paytable of any machine?