Question about VP machine game programs

Let's say I walk up to a Game King VP machine that has 25c-50c-1.00-2.00 games on it. Let's further say that I decide to play DDB and see that every denomination is a 9-5 game. My question is this: Is it the same program for every denomination? In other words if I play the 25c game and then decide to switch to the 50c or 1.00 game is it going to be the same program for each game on that one machine?
Now to take this a bit further. Lets say the 25c and 50c games are 9-5 but the dollar and above are 9-6 games. My question again is this: Is the program for the 1.00 game different or the same as the 25c-50c games. If anybody knows the answer to this I would most appreciate it since it has always struck me as funny that when I switched from 25c to 50c on the same game ( Lets say BP) the very hand that I just played at 25c is on the screen for 50c.

I can answer this because I had one of those 5-level (25c thru $5) machines for testing. If the denominations for the same game all have the same paytable, it's the same program. If the paytables are different, the machine runs separate program routines--just as it does for different games. This can be verified by when you see a 6 of hearts on the DW last hand, then switch over to the BP last hand and see the 6 of hearts there also. And, if the last hands show differences on the same game but for different denominations, the same holds true. These are the facts, and I had them confirmed on a call into IGT.

I'm not sure what arci will claim on this, but you can be sure he'll say something different. After an exhausting search that'll turn up nothing on the Internet, he'll claim that since he was a programmer in the punch-card era, he knows more about it than anyone else here--even without having ever had a machine to examine.

Here's where there might be some confusion, and I am not saying there is any confusion in your answer Rob.

When you talk about "program" are you talking about the RNG?

In fact, there is one RNG in each machine, but there are different programs for each and every game, at each and every denomination that uses the cards selected by the single RNG.

What I don't know is this:

Let's say I play a machine that has three different denominations with five different games. Let's say the last game played is JOB and the final hand displayed is KKKK9. If I switch games (without any additional play) will the same five card hand of KKKK9 also show up on all of the other games on that machine and at all of the other denominations?

My guess is it will not and that the last hand on each game and on each denomination is what will be displayed as you jump around from game to game and from denomination to denomination.

Now Im tempted to drive over to a casino to look.

I don't think anyone can answer this question completely. It is up to the designers of the games. There are lots of way to build these programs and no one knows but the designers themselves. There may even be regulations that limit the design options. So, the best design may not even be possible. That said, a reasonable design might look something like this:

1) A base program that displays cards, accepts input from keys, manages the RNG and other common functions.

2) Separate routines to handle game specific functions. (However, this part might not even exist if all the specific functions could be set via the tables in 3)).

3) A set of tables for each specific game where game specific data is kept. This could be things denomination, history of play, name of game to display on screen, pay table, etc.

The #1 reason why I think there must be separate programs even on the same machine that displays the cards differently on each game is because if there is a "joker" game on the machine, then the "joker" cannot appear on the screens for non-joker games.

Thanks Rob you answered my question. It is as I thought. Appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Here's where there might be some confusion, and I am not saying there is any confusion in your answer Rob.

When you talk about "program" are you talking about the RNG?

In fact, there is one RNG in each machine, but there are different programs for each and every game, at each and every denomination that uses the cards selected by the single RNG.

What I don't know is this:

Let's say I play a machine that has three different denominations with five different games. Let's say the last game played is JOB and the final hand displayed is KKKK9. If I switch games (without any additional play) will the same five card hand of KKKK9 also show up on all of the other games on that machine and at all of the other denominations?

My guess is it will not and that the last hand on each game and on each denomination is what will be displayed as you jump around from game to game and from denomination to denomination.

Now Im tempted to drive over to a casino to look.

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I have been playing a $1, $2, $5 game that has various games (i.e. DDb, super aces, job, etc). If I am playing $1 DDB and switch to $2 or $5 DDB, the same last hand appears. But if I switch to a different game, at any denomination, the last hand is different.

This may be specific to that machine and not a definitive answer. It is a Game King machine.

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Originally Posted by regnis

I have been playing a $1, $2, $5 game that has various games (i.e. DDb, super aces, job, etc). If I am playing $1 DDB and switch to $2 or $5 DDB, the same last hand appears. But if I switch to a different game, at any denomination, the last hand is different.

This may be specific to that machine and not a definitive answer. It is a Game King machine.

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Thanks regnis. Does the machine have the same pay tables on all of the denominations?

I have also seen where the 5 cent and quarter games are the same, and the 50 cent and dollar games are the same. Here's a tip that's worked for me=check the last hands on the two games you plan to play on before actually playing, i.e., bonus poker or ddbp. I have sometimes left a machine after seeing the last hand was a huge quad like A's or 2, 3 or 4's w/kicker.

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

Thanks regnis. Does the machine have the same pay tables on all of the denominations?

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Yes Alan--same paytable on all denoms on that game.

I'm curious, why do you think it matters what the last hand was?

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Originally Posted by regnis

Yes Alan--same paytable on all denoms on that game.

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At Rincon I checked their machines when this question came up some time ago. The Game King machines had the same pay tables for 25 cent and 50 cent, but different pay tables for dollar and two dollars. And the last hands played were different on the 25/50 than the 1/2.

As Arc pointed out, that doesn't mean it is like this on all games, all machines. Frankly I wonder why does it matter what the last hand played was?

It IS like that on all IGT games, as I found out on the machine I had as well as in a follow-up phone call. I can't speak to other manufacturers, but I don't expect it would be any different.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

It IS like that on all IGT games, as I found out on the machine I had as well as in a follow-up phone call. I can't speak to other manufacturers, but I don't expect it would be any different.

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Rob please clarify what you mean by "like this" on all machines?

More importantly why does it matter?

I was referring to your mentioning how the last hand shown on a 25c & 50c game was one set of cards, but different when you switched over to $1 &$2 on the same game.

What does it matter? Nothing really. Just an operational point of information.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

What does it matter? Nothing really. Just an operational point of information.

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Well that's a relief. I was afraid someone might think that if a machine is displaying a previous winner that the chance of hitting another winner was reduced. Or if the machine was displaying a loser, that the chance of hitting a winner was increased.

VP machines maintain a history of several past hands. I believe it may be as high as 100 hands. The hand on the screen is really the last hand placed in this buffer. They actually keep 10 cards. The dealt hand and the final hand.

So, the question really gets down to how many buffers to they have? It is likely these buffers are simply another part of the game specific information I mentioned above.

When I had a malfunction on a machine at Mandalay Bay several years ago, a technician opened the machine for a supervisor to play back the memory of the hand in dispute.

I was dealt on a deuces bonus machine 25555 which paid $800 on a $5 bet. I held all five cards but the deuce fell off. Players around me witnessed it. So when I told a slot person, they called a manager, and the manager said that if the memory showed a deuce was dealt they'd pay the $800 instead of $20 for the four of a kind.

The memory showed the deuce was dealt and they rationalized I would not drop the deuce and I was paid the full $800. That was very nice of them and I will always appreciate it.

But when it happened I got to see the memory playback. The previous three hands were displayed immediately and yes more hands could be played back but I didn't ask to see, nor did I ask any questions. At the time all I was interested in was $800. And yes, I tipped to tech.

I wonder how many casinos would do this today for players who said the game failed to hold a card?? Or would they point to the sign on the machine that says malfunction voids all pays and plays??

Some casinos are good about it. Some are not. I've seen both cases. Once at Tuscany a player next to be was dealt 4 sixes and it took both me and the player on the other side to vouch for the guy. They didn't want to pay him but I guess they figured they would create some bad vibes with two others saying the machine was at fault.

At other casinos I've had them simply check the hands like you saw and pay if the dealt hand verified the players claim.