Online bonus clearing, did I do it right?

Hey everyone. Question for all the math whizzes out there.

I recently got a $600 welcome bonus on an online sportsbook/casino. They pay reliably.

Had to roll over 117x, which is pretty brutal.

I chose to do it at blackjack, with these rules:

Double any 2 cards
Double after split allowed
Resplit aces not allowed
Blackjack pays 3:2
Late surrender
Dealer hits soft 17

I started out betting 2 hands of $75. When I won like 2 hands, I upped that to 2x100. When I got my bankroll above $1000, I upped it to 2x150. When I got my bankroll to above $2000, I upped it to 2x200. When I got to over $2500, I upped it to 2x250. When I got to over $5000, I upped it to 2x300. If I fell below my original 600, I lowered it to 2x$75 again.

Well, I ran it up to $2600 then almost busted, then had a comeback and started running it up fast. I had $14k at my high, never having bet more than 2x300.

But this point I was at about 71% cleared, meaning I had a little over 20k left to clear.

This is where I screwed up. I kept betting 2x300 and starting running bad. Well, when I got to $11k, I decided to go down to 2x250. I still ran bad and only at the very very end it I lower it way down, and I finished with $7700.

Obviously I'm happy given it was $600 free money to play with, but I think maybe I coulda cleared more if I lowered the variance once I hit $14k with only $20k in action to run.

Aside from my overaggressive end play, what do you guys think of my clearing strategy?

I would say you got extremely lucky. Starting at 2 X 75 with a $600 roll carries way to much risk of ruin.

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Originally Posted by JMichael

Hey everyone. Question for all the math whizzes out there.

I recently got a $600 welcome bonus on an online sportsbook/casino. They pay reliably.

Had to roll over 117x, which is pretty brutal.

I chose to do it at blackjack, with these rules:

Double any 2 cards
Double after split allowed
Resplit aces not allowed
Blackjack pays 3:2
Late surrender
Dealer hits soft 17

I started out betting 2 hands of $75. When I won like 2 hands, I upped that to 2x100. When I got my bankroll above $1000, I upped it to 2x150. When I got my bankroll to above $2000, I upped it to 2x200. When I got to over $2500, I upped it to 2x250. When I got to over $5000, I upped it to 2x300. If I fell below my original 600, I lowered it to 2x$75 again.

Well, I ran it up to $2600 then almost busted, then had a comeback and started running it up fast. I had $14k at my high, never having bet more than 2x300.

But this point I was at about 71% cleared, meaning I had a little over 20k left to clear.

This is where I screwed up. I kept betting 2x300 and starting running bad. Well, when I got to $11k, I decided to go down to 2x250. I still ran bad and only at the very very end it I lower it way down, and I finished with $7700.

Obviously I'm happy given it was $600 free money to play with, but I think maybe I coulda cleared more if I lowered the variance once I hit $14k with only $20k in action to run.

Aside from my overaggressive end play, what do you guys think of my clearing strategy?

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117 x bonus plus deposit? or 60x B+D.

What happens if you lose your bonus plus deposit as far as the wagering requirements go? Do they go away or are you on make up on the next bonus?

Let us know if you get paid and where its at. Not that I would ever want to play for for that particular bonus since the Risk VS reward seems a bit steep especially for an online casino.I Just want to know what casinos online pay and what casinos don't for future reference.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

I would say you got extremely lucky. Starting at 2 X 75 with a $600 roll carries way to much risk of ruin.

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With real money, for sure.

With bonus money that will be worth zero unless 117x rollover is cleared, I believe JMicheal approached that part of it correctly -- basically a "go big or go home" strategy.

It's not too different of a strategy from those 100% loss rebate promotions, where you bet large and set a stopping point where you're satisfied with your winnings, and either reach that point or bust fairly quickly and collect the rebate.

With a game like blackjack, if you're going to just grind small bets, the house edge is going to eat you alive way before you can roll over 117x, and even if you survive, you won't make much money.

JMichael's strategy will brick most of the time, but occasionally he will catch a hot streak and run it up pretty high.

I do believe his self-assessment is mostly correct. Once he got to $14k with $20k left to play off, it was a virtual certainty that he wouldn't go bust. So he might as well just grind lower at that point, to lower variance. Instead, he shot off nearly half of it still betting large.

Given the low house edge and the fact that he didn't have all that many hands left to play, it could have easily gone the other way, and he could have finished with $20k. But he took an unnecessary risk at the end with money which was likely to become real money, and he lost.

Anyway, I haven't run the math on this, but I think he was approximately correct up until that blunder at the end.

What casino games are offered and what are their weights towards meeting the 117x requirement (maybe you pre-weighted blackjack and it comes in at 117x with respect to the 100% weight slot/keno requirement) ?

Hi JM,
I'm not a maths wiz, but I have been in a similar position a few times and survived. My suggestion is that Going hell for leather with big bets was probably you best chance. I've gone with a rolling 10% of bankroll before now and succeeded against 300xbonus wagering requirement.
But when the money is almost about to become real money, then if you are already well ahead, switch to low variance. Check whether roulette is permitted and whether the rules allow covering the whole table ( I found one that allows it ) and then you could find that the fixed rate of loss into the house edge would clear the WR and still leave you in profit.

The "math wizzes" may offer their inimitable advice, but what they're ignoring (since very likely they're creaming their pants over the theory of it all from their armchairs) is that anybody who plays casino games at online casinos is dumb as a bag of rocks. Those juicy sounding "bonuses" are nothing but bait for addicted problem gamblers.

Wise up.

Thanks for your worthless feedback, Rob. Nothing here for you sir, so GFY.

I must be dumb as a bag of rocks and I'm not even a math wizz.

I agree that MOST of those juicy sounding bonuses are bait and MOST are viciously -EV

But that's why this dumb-ass bag of rocks only accept the bonuses where the casino has seriously fcuked up in it's implementation of wagering requirements (E.g. saying that blackjack only contributes 10% to wagering requirements and then actually programming the site to give 100%)

Even the OP, for all his ignorant stupidity, walked away with a good profit from his bonus offer. Real $$$ in the bank. Maybe he can invest it in one of your special plays and be as wised up as you.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

The "math wizzes" may offer their inimitable advice, but what they're ignoring (since very likely they're creaming their pants over the theory of it all from their armchairs) is that anybody who plays casino games at online casinos is dumb as a bag of rocks. Those juicy sounding "bonuses" are nothing but bait for addicted problem gamblers.

Wise up.

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Det +3 over Chi LOSE
Atl +13 over NO LOSE
TB -3.5 over SF WIN
Az +12.5 over LAC
Indy -7.5 over Mia

Parlay LOSE

Wise Up.

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Originally Posted by OnceDear

Thanks for your worthless feedback, Rob. Nothing here for you sir, so GFY.

I must be dumb as a bag of rocks and I'm not even a math wizz.

I agree that MOST of those juicy sounding bonuses are bait and MOST are viciously -EV

But that's why this dumb-ass bag of rocks only accept the bonuses where the casino has seriously fcuked up in it's implementation of wagering requirements (E.g. saying that blackjack only contributes 10% to wagering requirements and then actually programming the site to give 100%)

Even the OP, for all his ignorant stupidity, walked away with a good profit from his bonus offer. Real $$$ in the bank. Maybe he can invest it in one of your special plays and be as wised up as you.

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GFY!

Get real.

I could sign up with an anonymous alias, claim to be one of these super duper spectaculicious AP's, and tell a story about how I "mastered" the art of manipulating online casino bonuses in my favor for a profit....and every one of you morons would be crowing about how great I am.

Armchair theory and ap-idolizing at its best.

What deposit was required for the bonus and how long must the money remain in the account before withdrawal?

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

What deposit was required for the bonus and how long must the money remain in the account before withdrawal?

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Did you even read the first post idiot?

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Originally Posted by MaxPen

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Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson

What deposit was required for the bonus and how long must the money remain in the account before withdrawal?

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Did you even read the first post idiot?

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Yes I did MaxPen. He said he got a $600 bonus. He mentioned nothing about a deposit. I asked two questions including what deposit was required for the bonus? He didn't say, but "bonus" gives the impression that a deposit was required, as opposed to "free play" which requires no deposit.

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Originally Posted by OnceDear

Hi JM,
I'm not a maths wiz, but I have been in a similar position a few times and survived. My suggestion is that Going hell for leather with big bets was probably you best chance. I've gone with a rolling 10% of bankroll before now and succeeded against 300xbonus wagering requirement.
But when the money is almost about to become real money, then if you are already well ahead, switch to low variance. Check whether roulette is permitted and whether the rules allow covering the whole table ( I found one that allows it ) and then you could find that the fixed rate of loss into the house edge would clear the WR and still leave you in profit.

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JM is fortunate that the online sportsbook/casino does not have a wager cap on the casino games (or if it is capped, the cap is bigger than $300 per blackjack hand/spot). Many of these shops cap the wager until the requirements are cleared to diminish the role of upside variance and increase the role of payback percentage.

This thread reads like something put together by the new poster who started this thread with the obvious strategy (which worked) to show the site has interest gambling online. You would think he would post shit like this at WOV. How did he even find this place?

The professional AP’s from the WOV are jumping into the thread to show off their gifted smarter than you gambling talents.

Hell, this thread even dragged in a WOV policeman moron where online gaming is being promoted and protected at all costs, with no concerns about breaking this countries laws. After all, when you consider online gaming dragged the master AP Mike Shank. out of the gutter while holding a tin cup with a few million bucks (of course all on hearsay) what’s the big deal about breaking some federal and state banking laws for the benefit of Mike Shank? So what if offshore online casinos have no gaming regulators for the USA, you win some and lose more anyhow. Of course, unless you’re an AP specialist.

After 20 years of online casinos fucking and still fucking USA members, Axel the drunken AP king is still looking for online casinos that do pay.

Exploiting online casinos ended a long time ago before the UIGEA was past. Although they didn't have to pay you prior to the law they paid many in fear of the reputation they can't no longer deny after the law was past. Today if all your stars are aligned while you had your lucky rabbits foot hanging off your monitor and beat their bonus, you have yet to get past the odds of getting paid in the USA.

From what I heard small payments are paid, but as soon as you hit a big one, you get the big one in the ass. Of course, unless you’re like a Redditz who can cash out 6 digit sports bets at will.

Instead of pretending that all is well with offshore online gaming for USA players, maybe we should speak the truth about it. Then again you could delete my post and ban me from this thread also with no respect for my personal opinion that don't align with yours, claiming I'm muddying up the thread like you did in the Gift Card thread.

Sorry Dan, this thread looks similar to Redditz back-door advertising being used to maybe get some online casino sponsors. I’m sure like Mike Shank. did (the losing king of AP’s,) you too would trade and risk your members from the USA gambling safety for the benefit of personal gain. Your no different than all the other gambling fools that would even own such forums.

Does anyone here actually believe they could keep withdrawing cash from online casinos that don't have to pay you?

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Originally Posted by OnceDear

Thanks for your worthless feedback, Rob. Nothing here for you sir, so GFY.

I must be dumb as a bag of rocks and I'm not even a math wizz.

I agree that MOST of those juicy sounding bonuses are bait and MOST are viciously -EV

But that's why this dumb-ass bag of rocks only accept the bonuses where the casino has seriously fcuked up in it's implementation of wagering requirements (E.g. saying that blackjack only contributes 10% to wagering requirements and then actually programming the site to give 100%)

Even the OP, for all his ignorant stupidity, walked away with a good profit from his bonus offer. Real $$$ in the bank. Maybe he can invest it in one of your special plays and be as wised up as you.

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Why is the OP ignorant and stupid?

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Originally Posted by blackhole

Does anyone here actually believe they could keep withdrawing cash from online casinos that don't have to pay you?

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You might not get the response you want from Dan on this subject. I think he has made countless withdrawals in the thousands of dollars from Bovada.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by blackhole

Does anyone here actually believe they could keep withdrawing cash from online casinos that don't have to pay you?

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You might not get the response you want from Dan on this subject. I think he has made countless withdrawals in the thousands of dollars from Bovada.

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There's that lack of education rearing it's ugly head again.

Do you actually believe that any AP on planet earth, USA sector, Internet forum division, VCT subset, would EVER tell any of the other 4 "AP's" present that their super duper stupendous "+EV" online casino play turned into a foreign stiffing?

Wise up....and get a diploma.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

You might not get the response you want from Dan on this subject. I think he has made countless withdrawals in the thousands of dollars from Bovada.

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Once a month prior to the UIGEA, Party Poker had a million dollar guarantee tourney. The buy-in was for 5 hundred and change if I remember right. I played every month in it for about two years straight. After hitting pay seats a few times I finally won the whole thing a couple of months before the UEGIA was past for 218k. I requested a bank wire for 215K and received the entire amount 6 days later which came from Canada.

After all the online poker scandals, and illegal banking seizures that followed after the UIGEA coupled with the endless stories of not getting paid from off-shore sites, what asshole from the USA would even want to take any risk with off-shore gaming. Unless of course Dan is a complete gambling degenerate fool, I suspect he no longer would risk not getting paid from off-shore casinos that have the option of not having to pay because of no enforcement.

Imagine having to put your non-payment of winnings in the hands of an idiot like Mike Shank.? Please, give me a break.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by OnceDear

Thanks for your worthless feedback, Rob. Nothing here for you sir, so GFY.

I must be dumb as a bag of rocks and I'm not even a math wizz.

I agree that MOST of those juicy sounding bonuses are bait and MOST are viciously -EV

But that's why this dumb-ass bag of rocks only accept the bonuses where the casino has seriously fcuked up in it's implementation of wagering requirements (E.g. saying that blackjack only contributes 10% to wagering requirements and then actually programming the site to give 100%)

Even the OP, for all his ignorant stupidity, walked away with a good profit from his bonus offer. Real $$$ in the bank. Maybe he can invest it in one of your special plays and be as wised up as you.

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Why is the OP ignorant and stupid?

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Sarcasm.

Bovada has been around for almost 20 years, and has an excellent reputation for paying people. They're not perfect, and I've had issues with them at times, but they don't just randomly screw people.

They have been clamping down HARD in recent years against sports multiaccounters (such as prop bettors who get their limits reduced, and then use other accounts to get around it), as well as bonus whores who repeatedly deposit just to get and run bonuses, and but otherwise don't play.

I actually had my bonuses permanently killed by Bovada about 2-3 years ago for a stupid reason. I had a lot of money on the site at the time (like $45k), and they had a bitcoin promotion where you could get 100% deposit bonus for doing a bitcoin deposit. So I did that (it was clearable via poker), which basically was the equivalent to rakeback for me. Knowing they might bitch about this, I called up beforehand and asked if this was okay (to deposit when I already had 45k on the site), and the rep said yes.

Well, the rep was wrong. My account was locked.

I spoke to some obnoxious Filipino dude in security, who scolded me for "abusing bonuses", and kept demanding to know why I would deposit when I already had $45k on there. I told him the truth -- that I was offered a bonus, that I would earn it through poker play, and that their own rep said it was fine to do.

The guy told me he would pull the call and listen. He called me back a few hours later and conceded that the rep did give me permission.

"I'll unlock your account now, but I am disabling your bonuses on Bovada forever," he said.

I tried to argue, and he wouldn't budge.

Also, on the 2+2 Forums, they have a long running thread regarding Bovada payouts. If there were a problem with people getting paid, we'd know it quickly.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Also, on the 2+2 Forums, they have a long running thread regarding Bovada payouts. If there were a problem with people getting paid, we'd know it quickly.

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Glad to know you pros are well ahead of the ball where regulation is non-existent. It’s obvious that regardless what the conditions and risks that come with off-shore gambling and USA customers are irrelevant as long as the gambler could get a bet down.

The billions of dollars stolen and seized from USA customers in the past are also irrelevant until your own money ends up in that statistic.

Did you ever consider you might have a gambling problem?

I don't bet offshore but was involved with a bad experience with Bovada. My friend had been betting, and losing, on sports and horses with Bovada for years. He was going through a rough time and asked me to help him out. So I started giving him horses at Woodbine in Canada. After he had several substantial wins, Bovada cut him off and refused to pay. Ultimately, we got his account re-opened. They wouldn't pay him out but let him bet against it in sports, not horses. They claimed he was getting inside information. In actuality, it was just a brief hot streak and they, like the casino, should know to just ride it out.

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Originally Posted by regnis

I don't bet offshore but was involved with a bad experience with Bovada. My friend had been betting, and losing, on sports and horses with Bovada for years. He was going through a rough time and asked me to help him out. So I started giving him horses at Woodbine in Canada. After he had several substantial wins, Bovada cut him off and refused to pay. Ultimately, we got his account re-opened. They wouldn't pay him out but let him bet against it in sports, not horses. They claimed he was getting inside information. In actuality, it was just a brief hot streak and they, like the casino, should know to just ride it out.

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Lol

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Originally Posted by blackhole

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Also, on the 2+2 Forums, they have a long running thread regarding Bovada payouts. If there were a problem with people getting paid, we'd know it quickly.

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Glad to know you pros are well ahead of the ball where regulation is non-existent. It’s obvious that regardless what the conditions and risks that come with off-shore gambling and USA customers are irrelevant as long as the gambler could get a bet down.

The billions of dollars stolen and seized from USA customers in the past are also irrelevant until your own money ends up in that statistic.

Did you ever consider you might have a gambling problem?

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It's a calculated risk.

You look at the online site, and even the +EV situations (including poker) have to be tempered by the reliability of the site.

Some sites, such as Bovada, pay out very reliably. The chance of legitimately winning money on Bovada and not getting paid is fairly small.

A lot of the smaller sites can easily screw you at any point, and they often have. I don't play on those.

There is no money "seized" from US customers. When the US busts an offshore site, any money seized gets returned to the players (though this can take awhile), and they keep the remainder. This is more for PR reasons than anything else, but that's the way it's done.

Anyway, the offshore site situation isn't ideal, but for most states in the US, that's all we've got at the moment if we want to play online.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

It's a calculated risk.
A lot of the smaller sites can easily screw you at any point, and they often have. I don't play on those.
Anyway, the offshore site situation isn't ideal, but for most states in the US, that's all we've got at the moment if we want to play online.

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I now understand you loud and clear.

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by OnceDear

Thanks for your worthless feedback, Rob. Nothing here for you sir, so GFY.

I must be dumb as a bag of rocks and I'm not even a math wizz.

I agree that MOST of those juicy sounding bonuses are bait and MOST are viciously -EV

But that's why this dumb-ass bag of rocks only accept the bonuses where the casino has seriously fcuked up in it's implementation of wagering requirements (E.g. saying that blackjack only contributes 10% to wagering requirements and then actually programming the site to give 100%)

Even the OP, for all his ignorant stupidity, walked away with a good profit from his bonus offer. Real $$$ in the bank. Maybe he can invest it in one of your special plays and be as wised up as you.

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Why is the OP ignorant and stupid?

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In my opinion he is not. I was pointing out that despite Rob Singer's assertion that "anybody who plays casino games at online casinos is dumb as a bag of rocks." that the OP made a nice profit. Sort of goes along with my thanking Rob for his worthless feedback

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

It's a calculated risk.

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Exactly that. ^^^
I play almost exclusively online, sometimes exploiting advantages and sometimes as a recreational degenerate.* I HAVE been stiffed a couple of times by mainstream gaffs**, but each time for minimal amounts. It just has to be anticipated as a cost of playing and has to be countered with some precautions: E.g. don't maintain a massive balance and half expect to have your account frozen or bonuses cancelled.
*I can afford to be degenerate.
**I'm not in the US and have no comment to make about the US legal position. But European operators can be equally shady, if not worse.

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Originally Posted by OnceDear

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

It's a calculated risk.

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Exactly that. ^^^
I play almost exclusively online, sometimes exploiting advantages and sometimes as a recreational degenerate.* I HAVE been stiffed a couple of times by mainstream gaffs**, but each time for minimal amounts. It just has to be anticipated as a cost of playing and has to be countered with some precautions: E.g. don't maintain a massive balance and half expect to have your account frozen or bonuses cancelled.
*I can afford to be degenerate.
**I'm not in the US and have no comment to make about the US legal position. But European operators can be equally shady, if not worse.

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This coming from a Mike Shank. back patting site enforcer.

When you figured out how to exploit an online advantage, please explain how the math confirms a green light when you might not get paid after winning?

According to you it’s ok if you lose fair and square, and yet, you just through your hands in the air and yell out "shit happens", when you win fair and square and don’t get paid.

If European operators who allegedly have gaming enforcement can be equally shady, if not worse than the ones excepting USA gamblers while performing illegal banking transactions, without gaming enforcement, only shines a light on how stupid European degenerates actually are.

It’s obvious, and by your own confirmation that you’re a degenerate gambler which explains your ridiculous post accepting not getting paid. This type of post explains why you were picked to moderate the WOV. You fit in perfectly.

Good to see you stopping in occasionally OD. Not as PC as the other place but the site could use a few knowledgeable posters like yourself to grow. And overcome the garbage from a few idiots who will argue if the sun will come up tomorrow.

PS, no hard feelings on the ding, F ZK, lol.

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Originally Posted by The Boz

Good to see you stopping in occasionally OD. Not as PC as the other place but the site could use a few knowledgeable posters like yourself to grow. And overcome the garbage from a few idiots who will argue if the sun will come up tomorrow.

PS, no hard feelings on the ding, F ZK, lol.

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Maybe since Boz is not a restricted poster needing a clearance to post here, and if this site could draw a few more knowledgeable WOV posters like the demonstration OnceDear just posted it could be like old times again here.

Wow Boz, you are a loser.

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Originally Posted by blackhole

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Originally Posted by The Boz

Good to see you stopping in occasionally OD. Not as PC as the other place but the site could use a few knowledgeable posters like yourself to grow. And overcome the garbage from a few idiots who will argue if the sun will come up tomorrow.

PS, no hard feelings on the ding, F ZK, lol.

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Maybe since Boz is not a restricted poster needing a clearance to post here, and if this site could draw a few more knowledgeable WOV posters like the demonstration OnceDear just posted it could be like old times again here.

Wow Boz, you are a loser.

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Yes I may be, but coming from you I feel like the king of the world.

Ever site needs a pathetic loser to keep it going, Luckily I’m in good company here with you Mr Hole.

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Originally Posted by blackhole

Maybe since Boz is not a restricted poster needing a clearance to post here, and if this site could draw a few more knowledgeable WOV posters like the demonstration OnceDear just posted it could be like old times again here.

Wow Boz, you are a loser.

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A Loser does not walk on the beach and enjoy ground up beef from thousands of different cows on Thanksgiving Day!

Thanks Boz,
Even if I had anything useful to contribute here, I'd be disinclined to bother. It's too -ev for even a profitable degenerate to have to put up with some of the shit that gets thrown about here, especially to Shanks lackies. Sometimes funny to watch the infighting though, until the regulars line up together to take a pop at WOV members.
To give something of an answer to Blackhole. The worst time I got stiffed by an online gaff was when they told me I was not going to get the 150 of bonus funds that I'd legitimately squeezed out of their weakness and that I'd get no more bonuses from them in future. I was only mildly irritated after taking that dead easy exploit for about 350 per week over a > 3 month stretch. I wasn't surprised by their turning off the easy money faucet and I just took my business elsewhere. More recently a couple of gaffs have made me jump through hoops to withdraw my winnings. But there were indeed good profits made and no account balances have been 'confiscated' yet. I simply try to ensure that I don't risk ever having a substantial balance at risk by frequent withdrawing of funds. Sometimes I find myself with some exposure, but nothing that I'm uncomfortable with. I'm too lazy to ever pursue my 'rights' through whatever overseas regulators might be in place. Life's too short to fight scumbag organised corporations even when they rob me. I guess it's a bit like the risks of those US players who go into 'Indian' casinos or who play cruise liner games knowing that they might be more likely to get stiffed and have little or no redress. But if those gaffs offer attractive comps or exploits, they get the business.

Of course OnceDear is a profitable online gaming degenerate AP with minimal online loses. No one expected any less of a reply.

We already have a fairy here telling fairy tales about beating Vegas for millions for 15 years and still going playing bj of all games. The strange thing is he's actually a real fairy. How long have you been beating online casinos?

blackhole has been banned from this thread.

I don't need drama from other forums spilling into these threads.

OnceDear, you are welcome to keep posting here, and I am always glad when another real AP participates in this site.

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Originally Posted by OnceDear

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

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Originally Posted by OnceDear

Thanks for your worthless feedback, Rob. Nothing here for you sir, so GFY.

I must be dumb as a bag of rocks and I'm not even a math wizz.

I agree that MOST of those juicy sounding bonuses are bait and MOST are viciously -EV

But that's why this dumb-ass bag of rocks only accept the bonuses where the casino has seriously fcuked up in it's implementation of wagering requirements (E.g. saying that blackjack only contributes 10% to wagering requirements and then actually programming the site to give 100%)

Even the OP, for all his ignorant stupidity, walked away with a good profit from his bonus offer. Real $$$ in the bank. Maybe he can invest it in one of your special plays and be as wised up as you.

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Why is the OP ignorant and stupid?

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In my opinion he is not. I was pointing out that despite Rob Singer's assertion that "anybody who plays casino games at online casinos is dumb as a bag of rocks." that the OP made a nice profit. Sort of goes along with my thanking Rob for his worthless feedback

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I and anyone else who uses common sense as their cornerstone in gambling, find it extremely hypocritical for any "AP" to give any kind of blessing at all to online casino play.

The AP gospel clearly identifies taking maximum advantage of any seemingly lucrative opportunity presented to them. They then fine tune this opportunity into expected value, and they play it. And as we've so unadulteratedly seen here, the aggregate amount of their play translates into "accumulated EV" (I call this phantom bucks) which they track as closely as the Clintons track Bill's herpes blisters.

So for ANY self-proclaimed AP to "take a calculated risk....aka, take a CHANCE" that "it'll all work out in the end" with foreign run online casinos, is the antithesis of sensible gambling. If there's the slightest chance that a game is rigged, that there's hanky panky going on with your account, or that you may not get paid when you request a withdrawal--and knowing that there is absolutely no recourse--then any "edge" you claim to be playing with needs to be seriously reduced or eliminated altogether. Period.

Epilogue: As difficult as this may be to read, accept or admit, people who resort to online gambling who live in the USA, and who use a bevy of excuses to justify why they do it, do indeed have a significant gambling problem. There is no other explanation.

I just briefly looked up info about the credibility of online gambling sites, and it isn't good. And don't keep tooting the "sacred" Bovada horn just because they've paid wizard's and other sites for their advertising. None of them are anywhere near as trustworthy as state-run casinos in the US. Any of these places can do whatever they want to their customers at any time and without notice....and there's zero you can do about any of it when they do. Stupid is not a strong enough word.

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Originally Posted by Rob.Singer

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Originally Posted by OnceDear

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Originally Posted by mickeycrimm

Why is the OP ignorant and stupid?

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In my opinion he is not. I was pointing out that despite Rob Singer's assertion that "anybody who plays casino games at online casinos is dumb as a bag of rocks." that the OP made a nice profit. Sort of goes along with my thanking Rob for his worthless feedback

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I and anyone else who uses common sense as their cornerstone in gambling, find it extremely hypocritical for any "AP" to give any kind of blessing at all to online casino play.

The AP gospel clearly identifies taking maximum advantage of any seemingly lucrative opportunity presented to them. They then fine tune this opportunity into expected value, and they play it. And as we've so unadulteratedly seen here, the aggregate amount of their play translates into "accumulated EV" (I call this phantom bucks) which they track as closely as the Clintons track Bill's herpes blisters.

So for ANY self-proclaimed AP to "take a calculated risk....aka, take a CHANCE" that "it'll all work out in the end" with foreign run online casinos, is the antithesis of sensible gambling. If there's the slightest chance that a game is rigged, that there's hanky panky going on with your account, or that you may not get paid when you request a withdrawal--and knowing that there is absolutely no recourse--then any "edge" you claim to be playing with needs to be seriously reduced or eliminated altogether. Period.

Epilogue: As difficult as this may be to read, accept or admit, people who resort to online gambling who live in the USA, and who use a bevy of excuses to justify why they do it, do indeed have a significant gambling problem. There is no other explanation.

I just briefly looked up info about the credibility of online gambling sites, and it isn't good. And don't keep tooting the "sacred" Bovada horn just because they've paid wizard's and other sites for their advertising. None of them are anywhere near as trustworthy as state-run casinos in the US. Any of these places can do whatever they want to their customers at any time and without notice....and there's zero you can do about any of it when they do. Stupid is not a strong enough word.

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Rob, of course, is absolutely correct. His logic is unassailable. Playing online casinos is almost as bad as playing brick-and-mortar negative expectation games. And at least with the brick-and-mortar negative games, you don't have the added stress of wondering if you'll win or lose. You know, long term, you're gonna lose. That relieves the whole ambiguity thing, which can be very stressful. People using advantage play online can only guess whether they'll be paid, or whether they'll lose. Much better for the psyche and the wallet to play negative brick-and-mortar. It keeps life simple, organized, and predictable. Almost like driving I-40 in an RV.

Bovada has paid me many hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years.

They aren't perfect, and I've had my issues with them, but they rightfully have a good reputation for paying people in a timely fashion.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Bovada has paid me many hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years.

They aren't perfect, and I've had my issues with them, but they rightfully have a good reputation for paying people in a timely fashion.

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In case anyone reading my post above doesn't recognize sarcasm (Sheldon):

I've experienced one issue in my life, and that was regarding a subsidiary of Millennium Sports called Wagermall. The owner of Millennium had the audacity to go on CNN and say he wanted to be legalized in the US and pay taxes; he said the US regulations were out of touch with the rest of the world except for conservative Middle Eastern countries. The next week, while his plane touched down in the US so he could catch another plane to Europe, he and his travel partners were arrested and their laptops seized. Some arrangement had been made by US authorities with other Millennium principals at their base (I happened to have a client who knew the guy who leased them their buildings), so the people there betrayed the owner and made off with all equipment and locally stashed money, likely in coordination with US authorities. I say likely because while the owner's plane was in the air, they started taking the computers and other equipment out of the buildings.

I got caught with between 11K and 12K in Wagermall, which went up in smoke. I had kept it there off-season because I was earning 10% a month interest at the time by doing so, but it was fraction of what I had there in-season.

That was the one event in 25 years. Nobody on the lists on the seized laptops got in any trouble.


Unlike Dan, I have dabbled in boutique books, and have never experienced an issue. I've had offshores sort of shut me down by putting extremely low limits on me, and I did have one tell me that I don't "fit their customer profile," so they dropped me but paid me, but those things happen in LV, too. The place that said I didn't fit their profile eventually reconsidered and allowed me back. Most books will do so, employing a piggybacking attitude -- "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em."