How do you define these terms when discussing dice and craps shooting?

[Alan Mendelson]

I originally asked this question over on the WizardofVegas forum and unfortunately the first responses I got were more about the debate about the abilities or realities of these kinds of craps shooting rather than the definitions of the terms/words.

So let me ask the question again here because I might reach a different audience that might actually tackle and respond to the question.

The question is how would you define:
1. dice influencing / dice influencer
2. dice controlling / dice controller
3. dice setting / dice setter
4. random shooting / random shooter

I raise the question because when ever there is a discussion about dice influencing or controlling or setting the terms seem to be used interchangeably, when really I think the terms are describing unique or different situations/skills/abilities or acts.

So, here is how I would definite the four terms and I offer these definitions without any opinion about whether or not these skills or abilities or talents actually exist or actually work or can or can't be used in dice games. I just want to be clear that we are all talking about the same thing when we do have these debates. Here are my definitions:

1. Dice influencing (influencer) Someone who consistently can affect to some degree the numbers of each roll. That might be increasing or decreasing the appearance of the 7, the appearance of inside numbers or outside numbers. The key word for me is consistently showing the desired goal.

2. Dice controlling (controller) This is more strict than "dice influencing" in that a "dice controller" or "dice controlling" must actually show consistent delivery of a desired number. Any who can "control" the dice should be able to deliver specific numbers on demand.

3. Dice setting (setter) This is someone who arranges the dice in some way as they go about their throw or toss, or arranging the dice in some way.

4. Random shooting (shooter) No particular or defined way of picking up and shooting, rolling or throwing the dice.

Again, I don't want to debate what works, what is possible, what can or can't be done, but I would like to know what we are talking about. I think #1, #2, and #3 are sometimes substituted for each other in conversations when in my opinion they have different meanings.

How do you define these terms?

[Alan Mendelson]

I am disappointed that forty people looked at the original post but no one commented -- not even our known "craps shooters" here on our Forum. There was some response to my post over on the Wizard of Vegas forum.

I think it is important that we have clear definitions of "influencing" or "controlling" in order to be able to debate the possibility of the art of dice shooting to influence or control the dice.

And once we have these basic definitions, then we need to set up the criteria and parameters to be able to test the claims of dice influencing and dice controlling. For example, must the dice travel down the table on axis, and how do you measure axis and with what tolerance for rotation off axis? What about the bounce and what are the tolerances for the bounce? And what tolerance or criteria are used for the roll?

Without these clear standards -- tolerances, measurements, defined limits -- no one can claim to control or even influence dice.

Without knowing what actually defines a controlled throw or an influenced throw, all throws are nothing more than random with a little drama or decorations attached. In other words, every throw is a "pig" but depending on the set or the toss or the bounce, some "pigs" are wearing lipstick, some pigs are wearing makeup, and some pigs are wearing diamonds -- but they are all pigs.

[regnis]

Alan-as someone who has claimed to be a dice influencer, I don't believe that anyone can control the dice. Even if you go way back to when Scoblete started pushing his dice control classes and books, etc., their original claim was only that they could alter results by a few percentage points or a few rolls. It later expanded into the dramatic claims they now make.

When I was playing every day, I had a "grooved swing" and it had to be a different swing based upon the length of the table and the cushion, and this could vary even within one particular casino. There was also a different throw for different numbers. Generally, unless a certain number was really needed, I didn't like to change my throw. But my natural throw resulted in 8's, 9's and 10's. If you look at the dice, you can see where those numbers could result from a certain set and a slight variance in the bounce or landing.

There were many many days when my gambling partner and I would play from 8 AM to 2 AM and only bet on my roll, and each of my rolls was successful. But then I was barred from throwing (since re-instated under new management) and stopped playing craps other than on rare occassions (locally) and then just recreationally as I do not have the stroke anymore. I still play when in vegas but again, due to lack of practice, make no pretense that I have any control now.

So back to your question, I agree with your definitions other than dice control, as even when I was a dice influencer, I don't believe that anyone can control the dice. In designing the actual throw, you need to take into account the bounciness of the table, the length, the type of padding at the end, and the space between the pass line and the wall. As I have mentioned in previous threads, in Chicago, Horseshoe has the pass line so close to the wall that you have to hit the odds bet with each throw. Also, they are extremely bouncy. At Hollywood casino, they are super bouncy. At Harrahs, they are just slightly bouncy and you could influence the dice with proper throws. At the casino (nameless) that I most played, the tables are perfect--no bounce, lots of room between the pass line and the wall. A proper throw can hit right at the base of the wall and take just the slightest hop back. However, I have watched hours and hours of craps there since I was barred and they are all random shooters and you rarely see a roll. You of course will still see good rolls just by luck from random shooters, and the one I had with the cowboys in Vegas on $30 was when I was still somewhere between a random shooter and a dice setter--but certainly not yet an influencer--so it can happen. But it was fun when I was almost always getting at least 10 minutes and averaging 20 on every roll, and that, to me, was dice influencing.

[Alan Mendelson]

Interesting post, regnis. Thanks. Just what are the "dramatic claims" made by the Scoblete crowd now? When I used to hang out with the DI crowd it was, as you said, only about altering the ratio of 7s.

I am curious about this statement you made: "A proper throw can hit right at the base of the wall and take just the slightest hop back." Back in the "early days" when Sharpshooter's book came out and the when the seminars were first starting more than a decade ago, the "proper throw" had the dice hitting at the end of come box, and slowly rolling to back wall on axis and together. Has the definition of a "controlled throw" changed?

[regnis]

Well--it seems lately that they talk about the monster rolls as if it's automatic, but in their original claims it was just a few more rolls between 7's. But that probably doesn't sell so the claims seem to have grown bigger.

My throw was different then theirs. They used a backhand spin and did go for a bigger hop back. mine is underhand and attempted to kind of hit the crack and stop, or in worst case hit just short and take a small hop. Incidentally, that is why they have the pointy bumps on the padding on the wall--so that when it comes back off the wall it doesn't come back uniformly. That was the advantage of my throw trying to nail the crack and avoid bounce back.

All this talk is making me want to get back into training and try again. But It really does take an inordinate amount of time and practice--although I still do have a steady hand. My partner who I mentioned could never master the throw did sometimes make a few good throws, but as soon as he had some meaningful cash on the table would get shaky handed and screw it up. You have to get in the zone and then zone everything else out.

One day in the middle of a big hand a friend/client who had a few too many saw me at the table and came up behind me, slapped me on the back, how are you etc. It took me out of the zone and I had to take all my bets down and pass the dice. Love the guy but his timing was bad.

[Alan Mendelson]

Sharpshooter discusses the bumps and in his book he says to hit the end of the come box so that the dice roll softly and come to rest under the first row of alligator bumps. He also says that if the roll is soft enough but the dice do hit the first row, that they will not rotate much if they hit the bumps very softly.

Theoretically, it all sounds good.

[regnis]

It definitely isn't a perfect world, but it can work to some degree. By the way, Caesars' tables are a little bouncier than they used to be but are still playable. The old Flamingo extra long tables were the best but have been replaced.

[Alan Mendelson]

I wrote in another thread how they put new felts on the tables at Caesars and left the old felt underneath. This increases the bounce.
In the past the old felts were removed.

see http://vegascasinotalk.com/forum/showth...ent-bounce-now.

[russkg]

A good friend of mine paid the tuition and took the GTC Vegas Class in June. Before and after class, they follow the other students and teachers around trying to catch a hot hand. His view after taking the class is he needs to practice but seeing near perfect throws with two dice rotating simultaneously, bouncing together, kissing the wall and dieing their is amazing. The GTC Gurus have achieved quite a following and apparently were asked to leave their former Home Base casino for being to good.

My friend summarized that even with training and practice, no one can control the dice, but he is convinced that near perfect throws influence the dice and reduce the frequency of 7s. He said more importantly, its an attitude that you take to the table when you see a reputed "GOOD" GTC Graduate shooter at stick right. Of course not always great, but its that positive attitude and anticipation that he felt made it worth it.

My take is similar to Justin Verlander or CC Sabithia taking the mound: great pitcher, established reputation results in a positive attitude and anticipation of a good outcome. Not always the case but...better than anticpation of a bad outcome! Never under estimate the Power of Positive Thinking. Attitude is everything!

I would encourage Regnis to come out of dice shooting retirement and start to get back in the zone. Change that attitude!

Crap fanatics are craving and need more monster hands more often as the random ones are just that, random. I just love it when the murmur around the table is: just wait, that next shooter is a good shooter.

Bounce Update: Yes, Caesar's Tables were incredibly foamy and springy a couple of weeks ago. Least bouncy was the Paris table closest to the Cashier. Bally's tables were bouncy too.

[Alan Mendelson]

Of all the casinos, the one with the best table conditions is Bellagio. Not too bouncy, relatively short. Unfortunately they threw me out.

[russkg]

Alan, You were too good a shooter for them.

Since you mentioned the Bellagio by name, I heard it was Bellagio that kicked out the GTC Gurus for being to good. The story I heard was they wore disguises to conceal their true identity but even that didn't work.

MGM Corporation is definitely having their issues as is Caesars and all the other publicly traded casino corporations. Focusing strictly on the bottom line for shareholders at the expense of their customers in my opinion will not work in the long run. Time will tell. I miss the days when the Diamond Lounge was great and I actually enjoyed and looked forward to going in. On my last visit, we didn't even visit it once and my wife didn't even remind me about it.

Didn't Harrahs go from Private to Public to Private and then recently to Public with a name change to Caesars Entertainment? Not sure what they are trying to accomplish.

[russkg]

Caesar's Tables are very short and have a little unusual shape, but very "springy". No matter how softly you toss, bing, boing, bing. No heat about not hitting the wall but is so bouncy it doesn't seem to matter much.

[Alan Mendelson]

Caesar's Tables are very short and have a little unusual shape, but very "springy".

I haven't been back to Caesars since the tables became "springy." They used to have a nice soft bounce. I don't know if this was a "company decision" to make them more bouncy. When the carpenter (I think that's the right title) was installing the new felts I asked him why he was putting the new one on top of the old? (I also asked him at the time if I could "buy" the old felt from him? Years ago, they gave my son a felt that they changed out.) He told me "that's the way I do it." To be honest, I don't know if this carpenter was following orders from management or was setting the standards for Caesars' craps tables by himself.

And about the unusual shape: there is a curve at the ends of the tables which limits the center flat part of the back wall.

[regnis]

The casino execs used to scoff at the idea of dice control ar any variation thereof. Now, as is apparent, they have barred Alan and me at certain casinos, and, whether intentionally or not, altered the tables so that they are so bouncy as to make dice control impossible. I would tend to believe this is intentional.

One of the casinos here put a time limit on how long you could "play with the dice" before throwing them in an effort to stop dice setting but also to stop these ididots that throw the dice in front of them several times looking for who knows what before they actually throw them downfield. I could set them quickly enough that I was not affected. Ultimately, they did get enough complaints that they killed that rule.

[regnis]

The Horseshoe, which is a Caesars' property just outside of Chicago, put in those tables where there is no room between the wall and the pass line after a group of us (and believe it or not I was the smallest player)took them for $1,000,000. Now all the big players have left and they basically have no game there--it will take years to recoup that with the players they have now--but now they have little or no risk.

Oddly, it was all random shooters that night--it was just 1 of those magical craps games we dream of. My win was relatively small as it was a lot of hardways and hop bets and horn bets and they were betting them like animals while I was sitting on the numbers and mostly the 10 and 8 which were quiet.

[Alan Mendelson]

they have barred Alan

Let me be clear about this: I do not have any ability as a dice influencer or controller. At all three casinos where I got into trouble, I was setting the dice (which by itself is meaningless) but I got lucky. That's all it was. I will never claim that I made the dice do what they did, or that the dice hit the numbers I was hoping for. They just did luckily hit.

I got into trouble because of the fears of the casino personnel and not because I exhibited any great supernatural abilities. I guess I just looked "too good," when really I was just lucky.

Ironically at Bellagio I was actually losing several thousand dollars when the crew changed, and when the crew changed I started to get lucky and I got into trouble with them even though I was still down about two grand.

[regnis]

That seems overly paranoid by the casino. I guess you have to play the games the card counters used to play and act drunk and crazy and like you don't have a clue what you are doing. But it does show that they now are fearful of the concept of dice control that they used to scoff at.

One time I had a good roll going and in the middle of the roll they changed my $25 table to $5. The pit boss was actually a client of mine and I was arguing with him about it. He told me privately that the order came from upstairs to interrupt my flow as the change from 25 to 5 brought in a steady flow of new players and cash transactions etc that you know disrupt the flow. We always had them increase the game to $25 before we played to avoid this, and then for them to turn it back to $5 was intentional but didn't work as I just kept going. When I finally 7ed out (and yes novices there is no such thing as crapped out), we cashed and left.