Based on Spock's post and the usual upcoming arci lie, it looks like no one will believe a slot director or even his bosses, no matter what they say. I suggest talking to your slot director at one of your Indian casinos in S. Cal.Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Last edited by Rob.Singer; 01-19-2013 at 05:29 PM.
I'm somewhat skeptical of this as well. First, NRS14.040(2)(a), in the Minimum Standards for Gaming Devices states:
And the oft stated NRS 14.040(2)(b) states:
Given that language its hard to see where a video poker game could be reprogrammed to increase the frequency of any particular hand. Slot machine tournament chips can be changed because they don't represent any "live game". I've never played a VP tournament but I've read reports from many others about them, with the general consensus being that you'll need to hit a royal to win, but I've not read any reports where high hands were rampant. The regularity of royals is probably due more to a large number of hands being played in a short period of time. (For example, see the high scores on the Videopoker.com contests).
While this doesn't directly address if this would apply to a "tournament" mode its hard image both a situation where a manufacturer would intentionally include such a feature and where The Gaming Control Board would approve it, knowing full well it there could be unintended consequences should they be used.
Which brings up the second topic, which is how such machine configurations would be ripe for abuse. If the machines are set to different values of payback then favored patrons, or friends/relatives, could be steered to their location. We know contests have been rigged in the past, as does the Gaming Control Board. The efficacy and dedication of the board may be open for debate, but I think its unlikely such a huge loophole would be allowed to exist.
But Spock, arci says that the casinos would be instantly closed if anything like that ever happened! So all the theoretical bases are covered....even if it meant a termination of state tax revenue.
I don't have a horse in this race, but I do agree with Rob that it would be naive to think that everything is honest and above board in the casino business under threat of the state closing them down. Historically, they are fined an amount that to the casino is insignificant and, if they were cheating, is a miniscule percentage of what they made by cheating. Our government, big business, and anything else is subject to lying, cheating, stealing, etc., and I expect nothing better from the casinos.
I guess the question is that being said, why play. Sickness, addiction, who knows.
Recently even Subway was in trouble because their foot long sub was only 11 inches. Of course we all have been claiming an extra inch or two for years.
Every video poker tournament that I've played in, and I've played in several, have all been played on the same IGT machines used for regular play. And on each of those games is the IGT sticker which says the game is played with a standard deck of playing cards, etc. etc.
I know that IGT follows the principal of manufacturing video poker machines that fit Nevada's regulations, meaning they are all Class III games and they all are "fair games" with all cards given an equal chance for selection, etc etc.
Also, I have never seen a video poker machine from IGT or ANY OTHER MANUFACTURER that has a "tournament switch" but I have seen the switches on multiple slots.
for these reasons I can't believe that Rob is talking about IGT video poker machines. Now, if Rob is talking about some other manufacturer, then I would like to know the manufacturer.
Over the years I have spoken with several casino managers and I am yet to hear from any manager who says video poker machines can be programmed to deliver anything but a random draw. Slot machines also deliver a random draw, but it is the number of "winning frequencies" that makes some slots looser than others. It is my belief that the "tournament option" for slot machines makes them very loose.
Rob, you have a long history of maintaining that video poker machines are not truly random. I have disputed your beliefs from day one, which is why I first contacted you and why we did our first video taped interview. And unless you can present something other than hearsay evidence that video poker machines are not truly random I cannot accept anything you say to that effect. I even include your conversation with your friend the slot director as hearsay evidence.
Show me the proof. In fact, show me the proof that video poker machines are not random, and show me the proof that video poker machines without illegal tampering can be made to not be random, and I will do a half hour TV special with your proof.
In fact, just show me a letter from the manufacturer of the games at that casino or a letter from that casino so that I can further investigate. A letter, by the way, can be used as evidence in a court case, but your hearsay conversations can not.
Translation: it was all just another lie.Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
I asked Harrah's Rincon about how their tournament machines work. Here is their answer:
Our new Tournament Slot machines are, in fact, convertible in that they can be switched from regular gaming mode to tournament play. The difference in programs is not really about more winners – it’s more about random rewarding within a tournament framework versus winning a jackpot. The tournament program is actually designed to award a lot of smaller awards to allow players to accumulate “points” rather than larger payouts. The gaming Slot program will often have very large awards - “Jackpots”- as well as smaller pays. There are some gaming slot machine programs that are set up in a similar manner to the tournament program like our exclusive “Three Wishes” Slots. And, Video Poker does not have a “tournament mode”. You can still run a tournament using video poker but there is not a separate program for tournaments.
There's no names mentioned here, so if you don't mind Alan I'll take this statement on my phone to the slot director when I see him again on the 14th, but he never did say there is a "tournament mode" or "tournament switch" on vp machines. They reprogram them, and if & before they are allowed back onto the floor for gambling the 10% certification is required as I explained. I didn't yet ask, but there might also be a requirement for Gaming to be alerted on which machines are being taken out of service when they're reprogrammed. It all seems normal, and since I've played in a Laughlin tournament that delivered a great amount of high-end winners to just about every player, this makes sense.
Wow, I'd certainly like to find out about the rules and safeguards for video poker machines that are "reprogrammed."Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
It interested me also, and that's why I asked him the question. But I'm not seeing what would allow you to "find out" I guess for yourself, because I've told you what was said to me from someone I'd expect would know how the machines operate. It doesn't matter to me either way--other than finally understanding what can be done for vp tournaments, and how they can do it.
FYI Alan, I've been to many many casinos around the world that use IGT vp machines, and even after just 5 minutes it's obvious the machines have been reprogrammed. There is no question they can be altered. I never looked into how the machine I tested at home might be reprogrammed because that's not what I had it for, and I wouldn't know how to check that out anyway. So I did the next best thing and asked someone who should know. I've also played in a vp tourney as I've said, that had an unusual number of jackpots for participants. This all adds up to me, as trivial as this information really is.
Hold it right there, Rob, because there you go again -- whether you realize it or not -- making a statement that alleges fraud and could damage the casinos and IGT. Now, what is your proof besides that it is obvious to you? And can you publicly name the casinos and identify the machines?Originally Posted by Rob.Singer
Alan, you cornered Singer and caught him red-handed in his lies. Now, he has no choice but to double down on the lies or admit he is lying. So obvious a caveman can see it.
Arc, instead of the attack, how about some of your research to show what the law or policy might be about video poker machines, what the manufacturers do, how other states do or don't follow the regulations in Nevada, etc.?? Might there be an exception to the rule? I asked Rob some specific questions and let's give him a chance to respond.Originally Posted by arcimede$
We all probably question the randomness of a machine when we are suffering through a cold streak, but I think we all probably have played enough to recognize if something doesn't seem right on a machine.
At Ballys, there used to be a set of Deuces Wild $1 machines just beyond the craps tables that seemed to be off in a good way---they constantly gave you 4 deuces.We used to finance our craps buy in, and then recoupe our losses again, simply by playing that bank of machines for an hour or so. This went on for several years until they were removed. We honestly felt that there was something not right about those machines as they just were too "hot". But we could finance a $2,000 craps buy in with a couple hundred investment in those games almost every time. And that just can't be right.
I did name 3 of them in an article, but put your thinking cap on. IGT sells machines complying with Nv. specs to other countries for land based casinos and cruise ships. What makes you think those machines are under US law at that point. Why are you saying something like that? It's a continuing story with you--you have this forum-derived belief system in your mind that always dictates how casinos and machines and the rules everywhere must be, and it can be no other way unless you see that info sworn to before a US judge in a US court of law. That's gross inexperience and a flawed dependence based on how you only want things to be. Talk about being a true believer....Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Oh, here's two of the examples I ran into overseas and wrote about: Weisbaden, Germany casino, the only vp machines they had were 9/6 job. I played less than 5 minutes, because four hands in a row, no tens, aces, or face cards came up on either the deal or the sweep-draw, and on another hand I discarded the 3 of diamonds and the 7 of hearts when holding three 6's, and the same two cards either came out again or remained and the hand ended. It was so fast I couldn't tell which.
At the Hyatt in Almaty, Kazakhstan, I was playing an IGT machine that was too good to be true. It was a 9/6 job five-joker machine that paid 10,000 credits for that jackpot, and the rest of the paytable was just as expected in a job setting, only it paid money back for SEVENS or better. Think of that first, then remember that anytime a joker came out on the draw you automatically had a winner, whether it was a pair of 7's or better or a straight or better with the low cards. However, I put $200 worth of their converted about 15c credits into the machine. In the 20 minutes it took me to lose it all, only two Jokers ever showed up on the deals and draws, and my best hand was two pair--which I had once.
These are things I've experienced, wrote about in publications, and talked about on radio shows. Just as with what I've explained to you about what I found from the machine I had for testing, and just as I explained about what a slot director told me about something as menial as vp tournament machines, you don't seem to want to expand your knowledge--thereby causing a glitch in your "it's just gotta be this way or I'll go crazy and not know what to do in casinos any longer". Arci and his jealousy along with the suffrage going on within him is understandable, but if you're the type that can't go on without actually seeing these things for yourself, it's a free world. All I've ever done is investigate things in vp, report on what I've found, and leave it to the critics and others to use the info or not. This stuff has no affect on me especially these days, and frankly Alan, I can't see your fascination with it these days other than it might dig into your addiction to playing video poker. I've most likely had the best, most trained mind that's ever delved into everything about vp, ever. If you're going to improve your results, maybe you need to go see your hero Obama and if he tells you, how could it be wrong?
Wow!!!!!!!!!!
Rob, to the best of my knowledge ALL video poker machines made by IGT are made to meet Nevada regulations because IGT doesn't want machines sold outside of Nevada to return to Nevada in the resale market. Unless you can provide me specific information, I cannot accept any of your allegations. You are treading on thin ice, attacking a publicly traded corporation.
I am not going to exclude that some casino, somewhere, tampered with a machine, but back it up with evidence.
And when you start up with your "addiction" rant, and political "rant" you lose a lot of credibility and it is a sign that you are in a corner and looking for a diversion or a way out.
Respond with facts or simply state "I can't respond with facts." In which case, we will leave it as "your experience."
Alan, IGT makes machines that also adhere to class II/VLT regulations. Those machines do not follow NV regulations for class III type machines. The returns are based on fixed returns set by the whatever regulating body is policing them. While still random, they are not based on all cards having an equal opportunity of being dealt. They are usually controlled by a central server.
This set up would explain everything Singer stated. I am amazed that he would claim to have such a vast knowledge of VP and not know this simple fact. Once again we have a perfect demonstration that Singer does not tell the truth.
Arc, do Class II machines or VLT machines appear differently than Class III machines?
I once played video poker on a Class II machine and there was a miniature "bingo game" in the upper right corner of the game terminal. (Ironically, the machine "corrected" a hold for me so that I would get a winning hand because the "bingo game" indicated I should have a winner.) But that machine was not made by IGT.
I checked the Nevada gaming regulations and they say that VLT machines must display some signage to indicate that they are not true Class III machines. As I noted, Class II machines have the "bingo card" displayed -- at least on the games I saw.
Now if Rob suspects hanky panky, I am sure he would have noted that the machines were either VLT or Class II machines before making his allegations. But he did not. So, Rob, were these machines Class III (like in Nevada) that were tampered with?
Last edited by Alan Mendelson; 01-25-2013 at 05:51 AM.
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