Rob you had a video poker machine in your garage where you ran simulations.
Are there 'menu's' within the VP machines that allow programming of not only pay schedules but frequency of hits ?
I have been reading discussions on vp.com where people claim to have seen this programming done in the weee hours of the mornings by slots techs.
I am very curious what Rob tells us. My off the cuff response is that while pay tables can of course be changed, the frequency of hits cannot be changed except by changing the pay tables. For example, if you change a pay table on a Jacks or Better game that says a pair of jacks, and a pair of queens, and a pair of kings no longer pay even money, and that even money is only a pair of Aces, then in effect you changed the frequency of paying "hits."
But if you are asking if they can alter the frequency that certain cards show? Well, that would violate the gaming rules in Nevada which say that all cards must have an equal chance of being dealt and being drawn, and all of the major video poker manufacturers say they follow that rule.
I have read the language about secondary programming etc. Assuming the posters are not trolling they believe what they say they saw in A C, which goes by the same regs as Vegas. Rob has skimmed the surface about things that are done we are not privy to - wasn't he threatened with a lawsuit or something for telling ?
The entire issue of frequencies is the death knell for silly theories like the ones put forth on vp.com and ones Singer puts forth everywhere. If frequencies are truly random then win/loss goals cannot change a person's EV; a progressive strategy like Singer's won't change a person's EV; people who lose more than expected are simply on the wrong side of the bell curve; etc. The bottom line is the math is our only guide to future success/failure.
The question is, I believe, can the machines be altered so they are not random? Yes, they can be. Anything is possible. Should we fear that they are being altered? No.
If there were some conspiracy to alter the machines, someone besides Rob Singer would have blown the whistle by now. There are no other whistleblowers: no one from any casino, no other player, no one from a manufacturer. If there is a cover-up, a lot of people are being paid to shut up.
Getting back to the hit frequencies question: again, different games have different hit frequencies based on the pay schedule. The so-called "hit frequency" for a game like Royal Aces Bonus is less than the hit frequency for Jacks or Better.
Arc, your response "lost me." I have no idea how what you wrote relates to the questions asked.
I just saw this thread but will respond later today. We're going to see the Zero Dark 30 movie right now and then to the grocery store. Arci always tries to answer for me but as you can see and get your giggles from, it's never anything intelligible.
Alan, the "hit frequencies" do not change. What changes between games is the cards that are held. If you go for more flushes for example the same hit frequency will generate more flushes. Maybe this is what you meant but what you said is technically incorrect.Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
The deal/draw card frequencies are the same as long as the machines are random. This means the overall result frequencies will follow with some variation due to the cards held (strategy). Since the cards and the resulting frequencies are independent of past results or denomination or what time it is, there is no way a progression or win/loss goals can ever make a difference. There is absolutely no difference in playing 24 hours of VP in one day vs. one year (for example). Each and every hand is independent.Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
The same holds for games like craps (assuming no dice influence). If you threw a 5 on a previous toss, that has no influence on the next toss. The likelihood of another 5 is exactly the same (frequency). And, if you bet more money on the next round it doesn't change the odds in any way. If you quit and go home and come back in 2 days the odds are still the same.
OceancityMD: Interesting question, not because I learned anything about this from the machine I tested for 3 months, but because two weeks ago I had dinner with the slot director of the Peppermill and was invited in to play in their video poker tournament next week. I'm not going because of another engagement we have during the heaviest tournament day.
In the discussion he mentioned how they were giving away $100 bonuses to people who hit royals. Then he said he hoped I got a seat at one of the "lucky machines" because several machines being used were programmed by his technicians to hit multiple royals, and in fact, all of the machines had been reprogrammed for tournament use to make the bigger hits like Aces and SF's etc. hit more frequently, as well as other quads, for the purpose of not boring participants to death while playing. He did say no two machines were alike.
I asked if any of this is done to actual floor machines and he said no, never. But, it CAN be done, which really is the key. He also said each of the tourney machines were reset and used "for real" when there is no tournament, but before being put back into service an NGC agent has to come in and certify at least 10% of the lot first.
I did also ask him about randomness, and he said nothing is really THAT random in gambling. I left it at that because I sensed a bit of uneasiness.
Last edited by Rob.Singer; 01-17-2013 at 10:51 PM.
Wonder whether some of that non randomness carries over to the machines on the floor. As for user program menu's then, Alan I agree that it would be a colossal conspiracy of silence for no slot tech, manager etc. to not have come forward about this over the years. However, who would they go to ? If someone wrote on one of these boards would we believe it ? That insider would be tied up in litigation for years and probably have an accident. It has been my experience that the slot techs really have no inner working knowledge of the programming. They are parts changers. They really have no need to know. There is a 'sheet' that comes with each machine describing the 'payout frequency'. I forget what it's called. Anyway, the folks at the top; owners, purchasers - have got to be given some guaranty as to how much the machines will generate for them outside the boundaries of pay tables. This is what we will never know unless we open up a casino and get in that circle. My opinion only after years of playing mainly in A C, sans the 5th card flop.
I own a business and I am privy to information with some of my suppliers that my customers and employees are not - though nothing immoral/illegal. Would I spout off this information or share it with others that don't need to know....NO. Would a complaint from a player (s) really launch a full scale investigation into all of this? States are making money off this too.
I do like playing VP and sometimes I do leave with more than I started with. Something has changed with the programming in AC and especially since the economy tanked. Our class III machines here in Maryland are definitely suspect. I rarely play our IGT machines (2 year old technology ) and they are 5 minutes from my home.
Last edited by OceanCityMD; 01-18-2013 at 03:56 AM.
Rob I think what you are referring to is the "tournament function" on slot machines, including video poker machines. A turn of a key on the machine changes it to tournament from standard play.
I remember watching a slot tournament at NYNY some years back and watching as one particular machine racked up an incredible number of points. After the tournament there were several people who took their turn on that machine after it was returned to "standard play" and the machine was amazingly cold. Actually, the machine was probably back to "normal" while its tournament function allowed it to be red hot.
One of the big differences of tournament mode is you can't insert money into the machines nor can you cash out credits. Of course, this won't stop the tin foil hats from making claims that the machines aren't random.
Most people just don't understand that big swings are the typical in high variance games. The people most likely to start complaining are ones who were lucky over an extended period and then became unlucky. They assume it is the machines.
Of course, it is possible that machines can malfunction. That's why I keep records. A casino is never going to suspect a malfunction when it favors them. Players should always be aware and if they are suspicious simply avoid playing at that casino.
Oddly, here in Illinois, it is illegal to set the machines for tournaments or any other purpose. So tournaments are pretty boring---there are so few winners. Contrary to most tournaments-wheteher slot or VP--if you get the lead or make a good hit you stop playing and protect the lead because the machines are the normal negative EV. You don't keep spinning as fast as you can.
My understanding is that when slots are set to tournament function they are looser. I don't know if that applies to video poker machines. I've been in VP tournaments when players were lucky to get a full house.
The one slot tournament I played on reel red white blue machines I hit the 777 jackpot twice and some players hit it three or four times in ten minutes.
Last edited by Alan Mendelson; 01-18-2013 at 09:38 AM.
Slot machines being put into "tournament" mode and being roped into a specific area was mentioned, because I see those all the time almost everywhere. While the slot director didn't go into specifics and since I really wasn't interested in slot machine operation, my questions stuck with the vp machines. And notice what I wrote about his point that, upon reprogramming them for tournament use, no two machines were programmed alike, and several were programmed to hit more royals than others. Clearly then, this indicates that if there in fact is a "tournament mode" switch on slot machines, there is not anything like that on the vp machines.Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Yes, boring is the word for most vp tournaments. I played in 4 and the only one that was interesting enough was the one at the Aquarius in Laughlin where quads and royals came to just about everyone multiple times. The other three obviously had regular machines in use.Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
I see that machine reprogramming as just told to me--and the procedure to put them back on the floor for action afterwards--as nothing out of the ordinary. But it also confirms what I've been told in the past and at times what I've been able to detect while playing although very infrequently, that it is indeed very easy and possible to make the machines do just about anything the casino operator wants, esp. if they're seeking to improve profit margin. This silly notion that the Gaming Commission sends in agents to check machines for "validity" and if they find anything that goes against established regulations they will shut the casino's doors, is just poor stupidity. The casino business has nothing on Wall Street, the medical industry, the insurance industry, or even the Gov't., yet they all cheat us in one way or the other and they all get away with it. So anyone who believes vp machines just can't be "tampered with" or won't because of some mythical fear of being "closed down" is simply delusional. And no state would even consider such a moronic move to a tax revenue-creating entity. These "theories" are nothing more than feel-good positioning so some players can continue justifying wasting their lives away for long hours inside unhealthy casinos and playing far more than they should.
I see that besides being a pathological liar Singer is also a conspiracy nut. Absolutely hilarious. Like I've said before, anyone that believes anything he says is a fool.
Arci why don't you listen to Alan and don't bother posting if you can't locate anything about the subject on the Internet? I mean, constantly displaying how meaningless your life has evolved into sure makes me laugh at you, but others have shown great displeasure.
Rob, it's easy to see you're making it up as you go along. In normal mode there is no reason for a machine's hit frequency to be "programmable". In tournament mode it wouldn't matter because no money can be input or removed. Your conspiracy claims make you look like just another blathering nut case.
You as usual make no sense and are making up only more lies as you try so desperately to give your life meaning during such sad times up there. It's rather obvious you tried to look the issue up on the Internet and could only print a synopsis of what you thought it might have said had you known what you were talkin.g about to begin with.
I think I'll stick with what a slot director told me, and you can probably get him in his office at the Peppermill should you ever want to know what he knows.
Rob would you mind providing the name and casino of the slot director who gave you the information? I'd like to call him.
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