Bob Dancer quotes a $200/hour consultation fee

[arcimede$]

Singer is a proven liar. Remember his claims that he both lives in Carefree and doesn't live in Carefree. Not to mention the 100s of other lies he's been caught at. Nothing he has ever said can be trusted. Hence, the claim "A guy goes from a loser to a winner after tons of research" is nothing but hearsay and most likely pure fiction. No court in the world would accept this kind of hearsay as evidence. Why would any reasonably intelligent person accept something no court would even consider? The answer is that none would.

OTOH, Dancer has mathematical PROOF that the system he teaches is valid.

IOW, we're talking night and day between Singer and Dancer.

[Count Room]

A curious off-topic question: Is there some sort of musical component about video poker that attracted all these Singers and Dancers?

[Rob.Singer]

So, I take it that you offer insurance to go along with your advice? If it's better than Dancer's, I would think you'd back it up with some sort of guarantee / insurance plan.

Big difference Vic: I don't charge anyone or ask for anything, so insurance is not required. Why? Because I've always won, and if you win using the strategy you teach you do not have to have other people's money....or need to work, as further evidenced by Dancer.

[Rob.Singer]

I've never heard him say his product was foolproof. I have read that if you set a loss limit on the bad days and win goals on the good days that the wins will more than offset the losses. So some days you can leave a loser.

Sling, what these misleads are hearing are the lies arci tells them out of jealousy. That's what they want to hear too. Case in point: the redietz thread about honesty. I assume my winning along with proof puts these people over the edge--just as it did for the nearly 8 years my reports & pictures in Gaming Today ripped them apart. And now, as a well-deserved bonus, we can watch as arci has cracked yet again! Can you just imagine what it must be like with him stuck in the house oiling wheelchairs while the person who gets on his nerves the most in all the world, is out not only enjoying life & retirement the way it was meant to be---I'm also proving him wrong over & over again by destroying the high limit machines he lies about me even playing!
SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!!!!!

[Rob.Singer]

A curious off-topic question: Is there some sort of musical component about video poker that attracted all these Singers and Dancers?

That would be in the note I struck when I kept my first name, but for my pen name chose one that would surely irritate Dancer, as a thank you for, as arci said, being one of the personalities who have all the mathematical evidence of how video poker would operate under a controlled classroom environment, but have not & cannot prove that their system works or has ever worked in a casino setting. So I made the mistake of taking them at their word, and discovered it was false, and why still to this day, none of them have ever even offered to provide proof of winning.

All that ensuing music you're now hearing? Music to my ears, as the dancer of the group, because of his phoney system, still has to work well beyond retirement age with no children or stable family life to be proud of, while he who sings does a complete in-your-face in every facet of life. And It is B-E-A-Utifu!!

[quahaug]

How does anybody know dancer is a winner?, other than Dancer that is. optimal play IS a great "system" utilized by a very few in the know untill someone lets the cat out of the bag and ruins it for everyone else, so I repeat my original point. If vp is your own personal ATM why would you tell everyone about it and kill the golden goose? EGO maybe?

[Rob.Singer]

The argument to that, quahaug, is that this is not his own personal system--he just jumped on it as a chance to make lots of money off of other video poker players with his product/book sales and "advice". You really can't fault him for that. But where you CAN pounce on him is when it comes to his claims of always being a "winner". Of course he will never, ever offer any proof of any kind about that, because he wants to keep the sucker-money coming in as long as he can.

This, while from all indications and simple common sense, it's not very difficult to see that he actually LOSES nearly every year. I strongly suspect he does the same "advantage player" 3-card-monty as they all find themselves doing--tally the beating taken at the machines at the end of the year, then apply an inflated value to all the slot club fluff just so a "winner" can be reported without feeling completely guilty about the lie. And naturally for Dancer, this is an absolute MUST, since his business depends on others thinking he wins wins wins.

[arcimede$]

No one can "prove" they are a winner and that includes Singer. The big difference is people like Dancer start out with a mathematically PROVEN advantage. They could still lose as no one is guaranteed to achieve the expected return of a game. OTOH, Singer starts out in negative territory and tries to claim his system will make people luckier. Of course, that is silly nonsense that no one with any intelligent would ever believe.

Here's a reasonable analogy. Dancer is like a 7' basketball player who can easily dunk a shot because he starts with a big advantage. He might miss sometimes, though. Singer is like a 5'2" chunky cook who tells everybody that he can easily dunk a basketball and they can too if they'd only fatten up by buying some of his 2000 calorie chili-cheese dogs.

[Alan Mendelson]

I think this is an important and succinct summary of the issue and one that all of us should keep in mind:

No one can "prove" they are a winner and that includes Singer. The big difference is people like Dancer start out with a mathematically PROVEN advantage. They could still lose as no one is guaranteed to achieve the expected return of a game.

[quahaug]

My point is that there's more money in strategy cards than playing vp even at the huge edge that once existed but does not exist now because Dancer ruined it.

[Alan Mendelson]

My point is that there's more money in strategy cards than playing vp even at the huge edge that once existed but does not exist now because Dancer ruined it.

Are you saying that Dancer is responsible for the downgrading of poker tables at casinos across America? I doubt it. I knew about Grochowski before I knew who Dancer is.

[Rob.Singer]

I think this is an important and succinct summary of the issue and one that all of us should keep in mind:

All agreed, except the point that I cannot prove I've won what I constantly published I did. Without going thru all the verification factors I put in my publicized challenge in a LV newspaper, the most powerful part was my willingness to pay for a court-appointed arbitrator whose decision would be binding and final without the chance of appeal, should Fezzik & Anthony Curtis somehow disbelieve the evidence of winning that I presented.

If these geniuses really thought I was a fraud, they would have taken the bet in a heartbeat, esp. since they already had proof that my entire escrow was put up and readied for the taking.

Arci likes to pretend the math is some kind of magical "proof", but theory has never proven anything. That's a fact

[quahaug]

Are you saying that Dancer is responsible for the downgrading of poker tables at casinos across America? I doubt it. I knew about Grochowski before I knew who Dancer is.

I'm saying that thats what people say. There may be others involved in the outing of the racket of video poker but I think Dancer is the poster child.

[arcimede$]

I'm saying that thats what people say. There may be others involved in the outing of the racket of video poker but I think Dancer is the poster child.

Multiple people were involved. Dancer is probably the best known but if it wasn't him it would have been someone else. The cat was out of the bag 20 years ago. It just took the Internet to broadcast it to a wider audience.

[Rob.Singer]

Yeah, multiple people got involved alright. Like Lenny Fromme, who went on LV radio and told everyone that he couldn't beat the +EV games, and if he couldn't, it wasn't likely anyone could. Basically, the same undeniable truth I've been saying for the past 14 years. His own son, OTOH, never seems to have gotten the memo, as he continues to re-print his father's pre-confession articles in the now anemic Gaming Today, which is a skeleton of a paper compared to what it was when almost weekly, I set distribution records with my column.