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Thread: About the "claims" and "reality" of Dice "Controllers" and Advantage Players

  1. #1
    Probably the most controversial part about the game of casino craps is whether or not there are really "dice controllers" or "dice influencers" or players who somehow can throw the casino dice to alter what would otherwise be random results.

    I think it is okay to try to influence the dice, and according to gaming regulators in various states it is "okay" and "legal" to set the dice and throw them in a measured or controlled way as long as the dice hit the table surface and hit the back wall of the craps table. The entire game is based on giving the players the opportunity to throw the dice to hit the numbers that will benefit them.

    About twenty years ago a movement developed where certain people claimed that they not only could influence or control the dice but that they could help others learn this skill and also influence or control the dice.

    Frankly, I have no problem with anyone trying this. I try to influence or control the dice. When I am the shooter at the game of craps I want the dice to hit numbers that will benefit me. I have tried to keep the dice on axis, and to minimize the bounce and speed of my throw, all with the idea of limiting the possible "end combinations" of the dice when they come to rest on the table.

    As part of the debate about dice control and dice influence there have been "reports" about terrific feats or terrific "hands" at craps. These reports about magnificent results have become center-stage in the debate. And I don't think they should be center stage or even a concern in the debate.

    Great "hands" and great "rolls" have happened and they will happen again. Craps is a random game and amazing things can happen when you least expect them. If you play enough and spend enough time watching the game, you will also see amazing things.

    I have seen the "Fire Bet" pay off on all six numbers. I personally have thrown "five numbers" on the fire bet, and I have thrown "four numbers" numerous times.

    I was once at a table where a "random shooter" threw an "Eleven" or "Yo" 18 times in a row -- and people have said I was either lying, exaggerating or hallucinating or simply counted wrong. But it doesn't matter -- because I have nothing to show for that feat since I nor either of the other two players at the table (including the shooter) even had one dollar bet on the Yo the entire time.

    Whenever we talk about "results" or what happened with a shooter, we have to separate "history" from the "ability to do it again."

    As recently as this past March I was at a table where a random shooter threw a number "8" no less than six times in a row-- some were hard 8s (4 and 4) and some where "soft eights" a combination 5 and 3 or 6 and 2. There was also a shooter at the next table who threw numerous 8s in a hand that lasted more than an hour -- but again a random shooter. And don't forget my (now infamous) report about a random shooter who threw a Yo (eleven) 18 times in a row.

    The reality is these things can happen. The history of craps can be filled with reports and events such as these. Some of the these great hands and rolls are well documented by the casinos and the media -- but some are not.

    BUT THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE THAT WE SHOULD BE CONCERNED WITH.

    What we should be concerned with are claims that these fantastic events can be repeated by design by so-called dice influencers or dice controllers.

    I can absolutely accept that someone rolled 23 6s out of 28 throws of the dice... or any variation thereof. Stuff happens. Crazy things happen. What we might call "miracles" can happen at a craps table. But what I cannot accept is that these things happened by design or that they can be repeated again by design.

    This doesn't mean that one should not try "dice influencing" or "dice control" but it does mean that we should all be aware that so far (repeat: SO FAR) no one has ever demonstrated any particular feat BY DESIGN.

    To the best of my knowledge there is not one self proclaimed DI or DC who can say "I am going to throw a hard 6 right now" and does it and can do it again by design and can do that again on demand much like a major league baseball pitcher can throw a fast ball into the strike zone over and over again on demand.

    And if there is a DI or DC who can demonstrate to me that they can throw any dice combination on demand (and repeat that) I'll put them on my TV show. Because only when these throws can be made on demand does someone really have dice control or is a dice influencer.

    Of course, dice control and dice influence is just part of the broader category of "advantage play" in casinos.

    I think everyone should go to a casino and take advantage of offers including free play, and free or discounted hotel rooms or other benefits that come with recorded play as part of membership in a players' club or slot club.

    But I think casino-goers must be careful about understanding that so-called "advantage players" are few and can have true advantage play only in certain games.

    In blackjack you can have advantage play when you have the ability to "count cards" but that advantage shows itself only when the "count" favors you, the player.

    In video poker you can have advantage play when you find a video poker game with a favorable or positive pay table but your advantage from that paytable or free play or other benefits is still susceptible to the "luck of the draw" that comes from a random number generator.

    In poker games you can have an advantage from years or experience and knowing the odds of certain draws, but again your advantage is limited by the shuffle and the deal and the draws and the luck other players have.

    The bottom line is that you should use skills and abilities when you bet real money in a casino and you should take advantage of offers and benefits.

    But while there are "advantages" within reach, remember that there is no guarantee that the results of the past will repeat in the future.

  2. #2
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    To the best of my knowledge there is not one self proclaimed DI or DC who can say "I am going to throw a hard 6 right now" and does it and can do it again by design and can do that again on demand much like a major league baseball pitcher can throw a fast ball into the strike zone over and over again on demand.

    And if there is a DI or DC who can demonstrate to me that they can throw any dice combination on demand (and repeat that) I'll put them on my TV show. Because only when these throws can be made on demand does someone really have dice control or is a dice influencer.
    Alan, new to this forum, and I have to say I like what I have seen so far.

    I totally understand where you are coming from, Alan. I, too, try to throw with some care in the hopes that I will have good results. I tend to believe dice control is real - for a very select few. However, I think that saying the proof of dice control is for the shooter to say "I am going to hit a 6" and then do it over and over and comparing it to a pitcher.
    Yes, there are many similarities between throwing dice and pitching a baseball, but there are additional things of concern in dice throwing - namely the back wall. If a pitcher is slightly off in a pitch, it will still most likely be a strike. If a dice thrower is slightly off in a throw, it will be a different number. The only reason I try to throw carefully is to try to get some consistency in my results. Sometimes that consistency will manifest in 6's, sometimes 8's. I also try to use a set (such as a hard way set) that hopefully will reduce the number of 7's I throw. Granted, your method of proof of dice control is conclusive, but I feel a person can have dice control without being able to call the number being thrown before throwing it.

  3. #3
    Alan: "In video poker you can have advantage play when you find a video poker game with a favorable or positive pay table but your advantage from that paytable or free play or other benefits is still susceptible to the "luck of the draw" that comes from a random number generator."

    Alan, you appear to think dice throwing and a slot machine's RNG are different processes. You are wrong. They are exactly the same. Even if dice control had some value you still will have random results ... just like VP. That means a person with dice control skills could still lose just like a VP APer. No difference.

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by Diceroller View Post
    If a pitcher is slightly off in a pitch, it will still most likely be a strike. If a dice thrower is slightly off in a throw, it will be a different number.
    Diceroller, welcome and thanks for joining. What you describe above is what I would call "dice influencing." I think you can influence the dice by using certain "sets" and keeping dice on axis to minimize or maximize the chances for certain numbers to appear.

    There are many people who can influence the dice.

    Influencing starts with the basics -- just getting the dice to hit the same spot on the table and bounce and hit the back wall softly. The more influence you have (grip, toss, speed, trajectory, bounce, keeping dice together) the better your results might be.

    But "influencing" is not "controlling."

    Again, thanks for joining!

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by arcimede$ View Post
    a person with dice control skills could still lose just like a VP APer. No difference.
    I absolutely agree that a person with dice control skills could still lose like a VP APer. But there is a huge difference. If someone really could control the dice, the pyramids on the back wall and the shape and bounce of the table wouldn't be a factor -- the dice controller could overcome those.

    You can't control an RNG in a video poker game. You can make your choices in video poker and hope that the RNG will cooperate.

    In fact, they are different games -- craps and VP. So is blackjack. You might be an APer at blackjack and master the skill of card counting but if you never get the appropriate "count" while you are at the table, all of your AP skills are wasted.

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    I absolutely agree that a person with dice control skills could still lose like a VP APer. But there is a huge difference. If someone really could control the dice, the pyramids on the back wall and the shape and bounce of the table wouldn't be a factor -- the dice controller could overcome those.
    Your back in fantasy land, Alan. I dice controller might have SOME control but they would never have perfect control. Without complete and total control there is something left to chance. Once that chance is there you have exactly the same situation as VP. It matters not how randomness is entered into the equation, only that it exists.

  7. #7
    Im not in fantasy land, Arc. I will believe in dice control when a shooter can tell me ahead of time what combination they will throw next.

    And we agree-- without perfect and complete control there is something left to chance... in fact it is all left to chance.

    The difference between craps and VP is that someday someone might show up who really can control the dice, but no VP player will legally be able to control an RNG.

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Im not in fantasy land, Arc. I will believe in dice control when a shooter can tell me ahead of time what combination they will throw next.

    And we agree-- without perfect and complete control there is something left to chance... in fact it is all left to chance.

    The difference between craps and VP is that someday someone might show up who really can control the dice, but no VP player will legally be able to control an RNG.
    Alan, unless they can control ALL aspects of the game then randomness is still present. Once you have randomness you have exactly the same situation. Why do you persist in this inane silliness?

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by arcimede$ View Post
    Alan, unless they can control ALL aspects of the game then randomness is still present. Once you have randomness you have exactly the same situation. Why do you persist in this inane silliness?
    What do you mean all aspects?

  10. #10
    Arc, of course randomness is present. Have you read (or understood) a word I said?

  11. #11
    The point Alan is you have been implying there was a difference between craps with some but not complete dice control and VP. I'm simply pointing out that there is no difference. They are the same. It only appears different because you "feel" like you have control. I'm trying to get you to understand what random actually means. You haven't quite caught on yet.

  12. #12
    Arc, in the game of craps, the fate of the dice is in how the shooter throws them. There are no other variables. The table does not change, so a shooter only has to deal with the fixed bounce mechanics of the table. It is an advantage that video poker players do not have because of the RNG. Hence, then for the shooter craps is actually a game of skill... yet I don't think anyone has the skill to master the game.
    Last edited by Alan Mendelson; 06-17-2013 at 12:56 AM.

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