The bottom line on the "legality" of dice setting and dice influencing

[Alan Mendelson]

This comes up from time to time (actually, it comes up ALL the time) and I thought I would just repeat "the bottom line" for everyone who is concerned or interested in what is a "legal" throw at craps and whether or not it is okay to try to set, influence or even control the dice when playing craps.

I also posted this on the Wizard of Vegas forum. Unlike the other posts there, my information comes direct from the Nevada Gaming Commission.

A casino can ban you, block you from playing, ask you to leave, keep you from shooting at any time and for any reason -- whether you try to influence the dice or not.

The position of the Nevada Gaming Commission is that SHOOTERS ARE ALLOWED TO TRY TO INFLUENCE, SET, AND CONTROL THE DICE as long as the following conditions are met:

1. The dice must fly in the air, off the table (to eliminated sliding)
2. The dice must bounce on the table surface at least once (to eliminate sliding)
3. The dice must hit the back wall

There is NO requirement that the dice must bounce off the back wall, or that the dice must bounce off the back wall any particular distance.

What I wrote above is how the NGC defines a "legal throw" and legal does not mean it is a written law, so you might want to use the term "acceptable throw."

BUT NOW COMES THE BIG CAVEAT:

Casinos are private businesses and if they don't want you setting, throwing, or betting they can ask you to leave and prohibit you from being there. So if a casino asks you not to set your dice -- you can't. If a casino asks that your dice must bounce off the back wall -- you have to do it.

I want to add this:

At NYNY they took the dice away from me because I was setting and winning even though my dice were bouncing all over the table. Just the act of setting and apparently winning was too much for them.

At MGM I was warned that if both dice don't hit the back wall EVEN ONCE the boxman is to take the dice away from me.

At Bellagio my dice were hitting the table and rolled softly so they came to rest against the back wall. But the table crew insisted that the dice must bounce off the back wall and when I argued with that it caused a big uproar. I won't rehash that story, but later management said the crew was wrong and just hitting the back wall was sufficient.

THE BOTTOM LINE

It doesn't matter what is a "legal" or "acceptable" throw or how the gaming regulators define it, because each house has its own rules anyway. You can argue what the NGC says and it doesn't matter. If the house says you can't set the dice, then you can't.

[redietz]

What do all of these locations have in common? They are MGM/Mirage corporate paranoids who want you to simply donate your money to them for the "thrill" of gambling on their premises. I find it amazing that, in this day and age when whether a customer loses or wins long-term can be determined by their play analysis, corporate casinos concern themselves with these nuances of play. If somebody wins, they can stop them from playing. Why make a big deal out of it before the customer has demonstrated he or she can win?

The niggardly paranoia of 2013 corporate managers never ceases to amaze me.

[Alan Mendelson]

The problem is the "inconsistency" of applying the rules. There are casinos that do not allow setting while there are casinos that do allow it. There are casinos the strictly enforce hitting the back wall with both dice -- but they don't enforce the rule when a 7-out is on a short throw.

[regnis]

As I have mentioned, I was barred by one local casino (since rescinded but I no longer play there). In Las Vegas, I had only 1 problem---at Luxor--and I was just playing there because I had met my nephew there for lunch and he wanted to play craps. I had barely begun to play and they started in on me because I do concentrate and have a consistent throw. But I had only bought in for $300--my usual is $2,500 to $5,000--so they didn't even have any risk. I've never been back so they lost any chance of me being a customer.

One night I bought in for the $300 at the Barbary Coast (we wanted to get a lox plate comped in their coffee shop--lol--it doesn't take much play). I couldn't miss and the suits were dropping out of the sky and trying to distract me but they never tried to dictate how I was throwing as I do hit the wall, etc. Had to be a dozen suits at the table before I was done. Best Lox I ever had.

[regnis]

Same casino that barred me posted a sign that there could be no dice setting. That didn't work so they put in a time limit within which you had to throw. That didn't effect me as I can set them quick (and probably blindfolded by now). That also didn't work--really pissed everyone off. So they did the next best thing--went from 8 tables to 2 and basically killed craps. All the players went elsewhere and it's basicly a slot joint now.

[Alan Mendelson]

regnis brought up a good point about "dice setters." Anyone who is a real dice setter will never be accused of delaying the game. With just a little practice you can set your dice in just a couple of seconds. As the dice are being pushed to me by the stickman I already know how to rotate the dice for my "set."

If you ask me, non-dice setters who shake the dice, say prayers, give the dice a kiss or have their girlfriend kiss them, and order drinks while holding the dice delay the game more than any dice setter could.

[regnis]

Also, if you have a good relationship with the stick man, he can set them for you while the payoffs are being made. I always took care of the dealers and they would set them for me if I asked.

How about the guys that roll the dice 5 or six times on their own end looking for a certain number before they throw them. Takes way more time than a simple set.

I'd be curious what, if anything, Scoblete et. al. have encountered with this.

[Alan Mendelson]

I had a pretty good roll at Caesars a couple of months back and during the payoffs the stickman would in fact set my dice with the cross-sixes and push them back to me that way. That was not a problem for me. But some are superstitious about letting the stickman set the dice for them. Hey, this is a crazy game, right?

[Alan Mendelson]

This is unbelievable, but over on the Wizard of Vegas forum there are a couple of posters who are saying that because there are no written "laws" or "rules" or regulations in Nevada that specifically say both dice must hit the back wall, that when one or both dice don't hit the back wall the rolls are still "legal" throws.

So I said to them, if that is true, then the next time on a come out roll the point is 6 and you throw a seven on the next throw you should tell the crew that you did not seven out. You should tell the crew that there is no written law in Nevada that says you lost your passline bet, and because there is no such law that you should continue to throw the dice and you should be paid when you hit your 6 no matter how many 7s might be thrown before that 6 is thrown.

I am not allowed to call these people stupid idiots over on that forum because I will be suspended. But here I can. They are stupid idiots.

[phillyfranko]

Good Stuff...I once had a boxman get up and scream at me that I was not hitting the back wall !!! I was trying to hit the wall...but I throw very soft and hit the wall nice and easy...sometimes the dice kick left or right and hit the side walls...I kept my focus and set a 2 v set and the whole table won at least $2500 each on my 45 min roll. Told the boxman that it was funny that the day before when I lost $1200 or so...that they never said a word to me when the dice did not hit the back wall on every throw. I tip the dealers well and put them up on my bets and often they set the dice like I like them , while paying off...I won $1200 in oct and did not play all that much. I am waiting on a loan check from UPS as I type...a loan from my 401K...time to go play craps at Del Park Dover Downs Harrahs Philly and maybe AC

[quahaug]

Good Stuff...I once had a boxman get up and scream at me that I was not hitting the back wall !!! I was trying to hit the wall...but I throw very soft and hit the wall nice and easy...sometimes the dice kick left or right and hit the side walls...I kept my focus and set a 2 v set and the whole table won at least $2500 each on my 45 min roll. Told the boxman that it was funny that the day before when I lost $1200 or so...that they never said a word to me when the dice did not hit the back wall on every throw. I tip the dealers well and put them up on my bets and often they set the dice like I like them , while paying off...I won $1200 in oct and did not play all that much. I am waiting on a loan check from UPS as I type...a loan from my 401K...time to go play craps at Del Park Dover Downs Harrahs Philly and maybe AC

Wow, risking 401k money. Risky indeed.

[Alan Mendelson]

I am waiting on a loan check from UPS as I type...a loan from my 401K...time to go play craps at Del Park Dover Downs Harrahs Philly and maybe AC

Oops. Even a credit card cash advance is better than a loan from a 401k. There is no tax penalty on a credit card cash advance, for one.

[Count Room]

Oops. Even a credit card cash advance is better than a loan from a 401k. There is no tax penalty on a credit card cash advance, for one.

Maybe the poster is Mitt Romney with $100 million in his IRA and some Olympian tax avoidance strategies at his disposal?

[Alan Mendelson]

I saw this posted on another forum, and it is a TV commercial for a casino and the commercial is on YouTube.

[FrankScoblete]

Great commercial.

[dannyj]

I had a pretty good roll at Caesars a couple of months back and during the payoffs the stickman would in fact set my dice with the cross-sixes and push them back to me that way. That was not a problem for me. But some are superstitious about letting the stickman set the dice for them. Hey, this is a crazy game, right?

Alan, is the cross sixes your primary non come out set? What numbers are showing facing you?

[Alan Mendelson]

I use the cross sixes for all rolls -- hoping NEVER to see a 7. I have 3/2 and 5/4 showing on the front and back and it doesn't matter to me which is showing.

"Heavy" introduced me to the cross sixes back in the late 1990s as a way to minimize the appearance of the 7, though it does tend to also hit the outside numbers.

Once at Mandalay Bay my come out throws were loaded with horn numbers and when I expressed my disgust the stickman said to me "what do you expect? Look at the set you're using." I do protect my comeout with an any craps bet or sometimes a horn high ace-deuce if I am betting green.

[dannyj]

Interesting. I use the straight sixes with sevens showing but only on come out. I also hedge with an any craps or world bet.

[Alan Mendelson]

Straight sixes is for the come out, which maximizes the appearance of 7s.

while I enjoy these discussions, I've only seen two players who actually have any amount of true "influence" on the dice.

For the rest of us it's just about getting lucky. Oh, maybe we help the luck with our sets... maybe?

[dannyj]

I think we do. I have 3 or 4 of Frank's books on craps and like he states if one can get their seven to rolls ratio (SRR) up to 6.5-7 from 6 , you've changed the odds. I am still trying to figure out the best set. I used to strictly set the 3v but of late I have more confidence in the hardway. Also, I'm trying to work on and be aware of the mental baggage we carry around before and after shooting. The best roll of my life lasted an hour and ten minutes and the thing I remember most is that I was absolutely fearless. No fear of the 7 what so ever. In my mind I was going to keep busting them up all night. While I work on and have pretty consistant toss, that mindset is what I'm really chasing.