Playing the "comp game" and how to lose it.

[Rob.Singer]

So entertaining reading about players sitting on the edge of their seats over whether or not they're getting POINTS when playing freeplay Worry about whether or not you're losing MONEY for God's sake, and stop embarrassing yourselves. And I told you arci could never and would never stay away from the casinos once those old machines were ditched. ANYTHING to get out of the house.

[arcimede$]

As usual Singer is wrong. I go to the casino once every 2 weeks and collect my freeplay for those two weeks only. I play anywhere from 60-75 hands depending on the amount of freeplay. On my last visit I hit a SF and came home ahead $540. Last month I hit quad aces on one trip and came home with $1390. For around 2.5 hours of my time, much of it waiting for my 2nd freeplay to be downloaded, it's worth the trip. The worst I've done is $140. However, it won't last forever. I expect next month to be cut significantly and that will be that.

[redietz]

Congrats to Arci for sticking to the strategy of playing only with an edge.

Someone on another board recently posted about the late, lamented Westward Ho next to the Stardust. I remember it well -- good place to take a break from the Stardust sports book. But my point is that the Ho had a double bank of 9/6 JoB progressives at its entrance, which were routinely positive. Despite this, I always felt a bit guilty about playing a few hands there, because OTHER OPPORTUNITIES AROUND TOWN WERE BETTER. It seemed a misuse of my money to play something that had only a small edge, despite the free ice cream socials in the lounge.

How times have changed. Now those machines would be considered among the best in Las Vegas. It's important to keep the deteriorating conditions in mind, and also important to pull the plug on playing when you don't have an edge.

[quahaug]

I'm not qualified to diagnose NPD in Rob but his posts are getting so incoherent I suspect a touch of alcoholic dementia.

[Rob.Singer]

And there you have it again. Life has turned so bad for arci that he continues the need to make up stories of winning (of course, after playing when he said he would stop....and THAT IS THAT!) So where's the pictures of these phantom wins? How easy we forget! Remember the last time I had to humiliate you into finally submitting SOME kind of picture??

As I said in my column, he truly is the gift that keeps on giving. Keep up the good work my friend, and when my wife & I stop by next summer for a visit, we'll keep mum when the KFC gets served

[Dan Druff]

redietz I agree. The philosophy at Caesars seems to be: We prefer a player who will take one room for one night and play two thousand dollars, than a player who will take one room for two nights and play two thousand dollars. Or:

Preferred Player A One night, $2,000 play
Less preferred player B Two nights, $2,000 play

But from a business standpoint that makes sense for them: they only have to give up "one room night" for the same amount of play.

Actually, that's not what's going on here.

First off, Caesar's is finally tightening its belt on the comps in general. That's not to say that everyone's comps have gone down, but they are attempting to punish those they believe to be "comp grinders" -- players who typically stick to low-house-edge games and exploit every comp possible. They are starting to realize that they are not making much from these players.

I am a bit surprised that Alan is seeing these reductions, given his 691,000 tier credits. Most comp grinders pretty much quit when they hit the Seven Stars minimum (150,000). Still, they are clearly unhappy with Alan's relatively low (by Seven Stars standards) coin-in-per-trip, as well as his game selection. When I say "they", I am referring to their automated system, NOT any human being.

Anyway, why is Alan's friend, who bets about the same in a year as Alan, getting better comps just because the friend gambles in more "concentrated" fashion?

Alan theorizes that they don't like giving away free hotel rooms for "slower" gamblers.

That's not really it.

Casinos are hoping to bring out the degenerate gambler in you.

They are happy to take your money if you visit regularly, set a reasonable stop-loss, and never exceed that.

However, they're MUCH happier to have you if you "go off" for more on several trips.

This is because you have established a potential for monster losses. If the computer sees that you never seem to lose more than $2500 in a trip, it doesn't want to give you lucrative offers to visit, as the best-case scenario against you isn't that good.

If it sees you sometimes losing $10k, $20k, or more on certain trips, that's more encouraging. It would much rather you come once every eight weeks and average $100,000 coin-in than every two weeks averaging $25,000 coin in.

Now, there's a flip side to this.

Casinos DO prefer a steady player to one who plays for awhile and then visits without gambling. So if you play a lot, then visit 6 times without gambling at all (or very little), it is going to take a lot of play again to "restore" where you once were comp-wise. Hosts get particularly frustrated when you take trips they arrange and don't gamble at all.

Casinos are also careful about overcomping players who might have busted their entire bankroll.

A player who shot off his $100,000 inheritance in one weekend is worthless to them in the future, if this person otherwise has no way of making any kind of decent money. Even if the guy WANTS to come back and gamble big, he is tapped out for life. For this reason, casinos are skittish about offering big future comps based upon one big weekend. They want to see a pattern showing that you will keep returning.

Simply put, comps are really issued for future expectation, not as a reward for your past play. Many gamblers don't understand this.

The Total Rewards system contradicts that a bit, as you can "bank" your RCs and spend them whenever you feel like, provided you earn at least 1 RC every 6 months. This is why hosts are forbidden to comp you anything until your RCs are used up. They don't want people using their hosts for comps, and then banking the RCs until the day they eventually stop gambling, and redeeming them at that point. The casino's attitude is, "We're going to do all we can to make you a slave to gambling every trip."

[Dan Druff]

BTW, Alan, you are not playing the comp game well if you have 691,000 tiers.

The Total Rewards program is definitely one of diminishing returns once you reach Seven Stars at 150,000.

Sure, there are additional benefits after that, but they aren't nearly worth the money you'll be losing to get there.

And yes, your freeplay and other offers will be better than the 150k tier Seven Stars members, but again not enough to justify it. As you've seen, you're getting severely undercomped now.

If you really want to "play the comp game", you should do the absolute minimum to get to Seven Stars, only play the highest expectation games, and redeem every comp/freeplay that is worth your time to do.

I think you posted before that you actually didn't redeem your annual dinner last year (correct me if I'm wrong), which is pretty crazy. That's just leaving money on the table.

I haven't used my Annual Dinner ($500) yet, but I will. And I have already booked both my Seven Stars cruise and annual trip. And I used my Diamond Dinner ($100) already. And I've milked nearly every worthwhile offer I've gotten in the Vegas area. Oh... and I stayed at the Rio for 23 nights in June while playing the World Series of Poker.

[Alan Mendelson]

As I said in my column, he truly is the gift that keeps on giving. Keep up the good work my friend, and when my wife & I stop by next summer for a visit, we'll keep mum when the KFC gets served

The more I think about it... if you use your column as a personal attack against a private individual (Arc) I think it's about as low as you and your publication can go. It's one thing to criticize a published author such as Dancer, but Arc?

[Alan Mendelson]

BTW, Alan, you are not playing the comp game well if you have 691,000 tiers.

The Total Rewards program is definitely one of diminishing returns once you reach Seven Stars at 150,000.

I never played for points. The points come as a result of my play. And 8/5 Aces and Faces with a 99.2% payback is about as good as it gets at Rincon and at Caesars it's 8/5 Bonus.

[redietz]

I've noticed what appear to be some aberrations in the Harrah's systems. When I visit Cherokee (a topic of a recent Dancer column), I appear to have gotten much more of an offer boost than if I were to play a comparable amount in Las Vegas. Maybe it's assumed that anyone venturing over hill and dale to get to the North Carolina tribal lands is truly an addict and worth roping in elsewhere, or maybe it's just weird accounting. Any thoughts?

P.S. Very bummed I didn't make time to eat at Paula Dean's last time. It's now closed, of course. The butter would kill you, but I liked it. No better breakfast to be had.

[Alan Mendelson]

I've noticed what appear to be some aberrations in the Harrah's systems. When I visit Cherokee (a topic of a recent Dancer column), I appear to have gotten much more of an offer boost than if I were to play a comparable amount in Las Vegas.

It's the same with Rincon vs Vegas. Play $5,000 at Rincon and they'll take notice and you will immediately get bounce back money and free play offers. Play $5,000 in Vegas and no one will notice who you are.

[russkg]

can anyone provide more info on the diamond celebration dinner? i made level 2 diamond in august and going again in December for gift shopping event and $850 free play and read somewhere that we get a $100 Diamond Celebration Dinner. Do I have to ask for it to get it? Any info on this Comp would be great! Really looking forward to December as the last trip was fun as I came home a Winner for a change!

[Rob.Singer]

The more I think about it... if you use your column as a personal attack against a private individual (Arc) I think it's about as low as you and your publication can go. It's one thing to criticize a published author such as Dancer, but Arc?

You know the answer to that. Arci is TONS more fun to jab at! He's an admitted math geek, and in high school, college, and even in Corporate America, those of us who mainly choose to use common sense over strict math have always had an ENORMOUS amount of fun poking at these dull bores because they all eventually get chipped away at enough to break. He's a gamer at it, but I've always been very patient. As a result, it's paid off in spades over the years. So why stop the fun now!?

Besides, all will be well when we visit him next summer....even if it's only the 3 of us.

[Dan Druff]

If you made Diamond or "renewed" Diamond in 2013 (that is, earned enough 2013 tier credits to guarantee Diamond in 2014), then you are eligible for the Diamond dinner.

It is only $100. There are a limited number of restaurants participating, but the good news is that most at Caesar's Palace DO accept it.

It's very simple. Just go to Total Rewards, ask for the list of restaurants for the Diamond celebration dinner, and then have them print out a $100 certificate when you're ready to use it. Only caveat is that you have to use the certificate within 7 days of having it printed, so don't get it printed if you're not ready to use it soon.

I believe you have until the end of 2013 to do this, but you also might have until March 31. I'd do it in 2013 to be safe.

I used mine at Nobu at Caesar's. It was a great meal. (The $100 didn't nearly cover the meal, though!)

Oh, and the $100 is tax-free, so you should truly order a minimum of $100 before-tax food if you want to get the full bang for the buck out of it.

[Rob.Singer]

Here's a serious question for those of you that are locked in in a big way to the TR program: When I was playing large at Harrahs Inc., I always stopped playing at their properties as soon as I reached Diamond level. I won 10 out of the 11 years I did that, but the only years it might be considered somewhat significant was when I beat them out of a little over $70,000. That year I hit four Aces w/ the kicker on a Caesars $25 DDBP machine. Readers of GT may remember this because I told of how I zoomed up from Laughlin for a night on River Run weekend in late April, and as soon as I won I got on my Harley and drove home to Phx. In fact, the hacks at videopoker.com were so jealous and hateful that I won that they spent days mocking it, me, and my wife, because she was with me on the way there but she had to fly home..Thus, one of the reasons for writing my "VP.com Hater Eats Dirt" article after one of the sick leaders of the Singer-hating clique over there died an untimely but well-deserved death. And it warms my heart to this day.

Anyway, while I can't today compare the program freebies to when I was in, I was always amazed at the quantity of freebies, giveaways, flights, comps etc. they bestowed on me. My question: although I never counted any of the slot club fluff in whether I won or lost overall, does anyone here actually ever win by the end of the year even if you do count stuff other than results directly from the machines? And, have all those free things been cut into yet?

[Dan Druff]

Here's a serious question for those of you that are locked in in a big way to the TR program: When I was playing large at Harrahs Inc., I always stopped playing at their properties as soon as I reached Diamond level. I won 10 out of the 11 years I did that, but the only years it might be considered somewhat significant was when I beat them out of a little over $70,000. That year I hit four Aces w/ the kicker on a Caesars $25 DDBP machine. Readers of GT may remember this because I told of how I zoomed up from Laughlin for a night on River Run weekend in late April, and as soon as I won I got on my Harley and drove home to Phx. In fact, the hacks at videopoker.com were so jealous and hateful that I won that they spent days mocking it, me, and my wife, because she was with me on the way there but she had to fly home..Thus, one of the reasons for writing my "VP.com Hater Eats Dirt" article after one of the sick leaders of the Singer-hating clique over there died an untimely but well-deserved death. And it warms my heart to this day.

Anyway, while I can't today compare the program freebies to when I was in, I was always amazed at the quantity of freebies, giveaways, flights, comps etc. they bestowed on me. My question: although I never counted any of the slot club fluff in whether I won or lost overall, does anyone here actually ever win by the end of the year even if you do count stuff other than results directly from the machines? And, have all those free things been cut into yet?

Try actually reading some of my messages instead of spending all of your time here terribling up every thread, and you will have these answers.

I've posted about this several times.

[russkg]

thanks Dan for that great info. This Forum is a good source of information Alan! $100 isn't as much as it used to be but if I hadn't read about it here, I may have missed out on it.

Nobu sounds good! I would also like to try a Gordon Ramsay Restaurant that's popping up everywhere. I wonder if those Restaurants are a Caesars or independent?

[Alan Mendelson]

can anyone provide more info on the diamond celebration dinner? i made level 2 diamond in august and going again in December for gift shopping event and $850 free play and read somewhere that we get a $100 Diamond Celebration Dinner. Do I have to ask for it to get it? Any info on this Comp would be great! Really looking forward to December as the last trip was fun as I came home a Winner for a change!

Go to your Total Rewards desk... at any TR casino... and they give you a $100 certificate.

Also, alcohol is not covered.

[Alan Mendelson]

I wonder if those Restaurants are a Caesars or independent?

I had dinner with the head of Caesars restaurants back in April along with another VP of Casesars. With the exception of Central, the 24 hour restaurant off the lobby at Caesars Palace, EVERY restaurant at Caesars Palace is owned and operated by Caesars under license from the various chefs whose names are on the door of the restaurant.

[redietz]

To answer Rob -- I don't play enough at Caesars/Harrah's for it to matter. I get a couple of comped rooms a year, but only during slow times. I've lost money playing vp the last two years, but am still ahead lifetime. Since I've only played 40-50 hours a year, the room offers and such come close to balancing the losses the last two years, but I would not count them or meals as offsetting losses. I think that's silly. I certainly wouldn't count movie passes or junk won via Palms drawings as offsetting losses, for example. Back in my youth, I never counted meals won or free trips via drawings as "winnings." I "won" a cruise for two and a trip to a Chargers game, but I think it's rationalizing to count these things as "winnings."