Are Caesar's casino drawings rigged?

[Dan Druff]

I am batting .000 lifetime on the so-called "drawings" for Caesar's properties.

All of my friends and acquaintances are also batting .000.

This is how a drawing usually works:

There is something like a $25,000-$200,000 prize pool. You are competing with thousands of people, typically.

Still, this doesn't sound terrible, as you should still win something sometimes, right?

However, nobody I know ever wins.

This is likely because not everyone has the same number of entries.

Typically each person starts with a certain number of "base" entries, and then they can quickly earn a lot more entries by playing a lot during the earnings period. For example, you start with 10 entries, but earn 5 entries for every 10 tier credits earned. So someone who doesn't play still has 10 entries, while someone who earns 10,000 tier credits has 5,010 entries! Obviously you have almost no chance to win if you don't earn many tier credits.

But I think it goes behind that. I have a feeling that certain high rollers are given an obscene number of free entries as a "bonus" or some other crap.

This is a legal way to rig the contest. They can't pre-select winners (The Venetian got in big trouble for doing that a few years ago), but they can stack the deck so much in their favor that those people will win anyway.

Have you guys ever won any of these?

[redietz]

This is why I turn a jaded eye to Dancer's guesstimates of drawings odds and his incorporation of those guesstimates in his evaluations of whether some situations are good plays or not. I think it's all a crock to boost vp playing when players can see the payouts are clearly not in their favor.

I suspect what you're saying is probably the case. By the way, the Venetian didn't really get in big trouble. They were fined, but their doors weren't shut and they sustained no noticeable reduction in gaming income for having been caught. Nobody put a big honking banner in front saying, "Cheats and Swindlers." Other than the fine, no ill effects. And catering to one high roller would compensate for the fine. They were caught only because insiders leaked the info. And, to top it off, the people who were "fired" for having been caught took better jobs at Native American casinos.

[Alan Mendelson]

I have won some "minor" contests and I can confirm that the number of entries which is based on the amount of "play" does influence your chances of winning. A couple of weeks ago I "won" tickets to a San Diego Chargers football game at Rincon. My host even alerted me that it was likely my name would be called. Why? Because I was among the top players during the earning period that spanned several days. While I was not guaranteed to win, it turned out that some other players with more play than I had did not show up -- so I made the "drawing cut."

I have been at Caesars for "big drawings" including car giveaways and yes the high rollers won the cars.

This does not mean the contests are rigged. It's pretty clear that these drawings are based on the number of entries and the number of entries is a factor of your play. Do high rollers get "bonus entries" (my term)? Perhaps they do. Do I care, no. Why don't I care? Because I have never gone to a casino with the idea of "playing to win" any kind of promotion. To put it another way, I am not in Bob Dancer's class that I can even imagine winning one of these things.

However, there are things you can do to improve your chances of winning:

1. show up for the drawings. A few years ago I missed out on a drawing at Hollywood Park Casino that could have been worth $5,000 to me had I shown up that evening. My name was called and had I been there I could have picked one of thirty envelops or taken their "guaranteed cash." The guarantee was $1,000 if I recall but the top prize was $5,000. Another time I was called for a $1,000 of free play at Rincon because I was at the casino on the last Saturday night of the month and my name was called because I had a large amount of play. About two years ago I won $1,000 at The Bicycle Casino when my name was called on a Saturday night drawing during a time when I frequently played poker there.

2. Improve your odds in a drawing. At Caesars there was a car promotion where you could put your entry tickets into four barrels for four different cars. I intentionally waited till the end to drop in my tickets and I put them all in the barrel that seemed to have the fewest tickets. This was allowed. It didn't matter -- I didn't get a car.

3. Pool with others when you can. My office pool at KCAL about ten years ago picked five of six numbers in the California lottery. We each shared about a hundred bucks or so. Just about the entire newsroom was in the pool -- about a hundred people.

4. Enter the free drawings. You can't win if you don't enter. I always enter free drawings... just in case.

[Rob.Singer]

Thinking the Venetian was gonna have any noticeable problem over this is the same misguidedness as believing in how arci claims that any Nv. casino caught going against NGC regulations or public perceptions on what the law requires regarding vp machines will have its doors shut. Never gonna happen--and obviously hasn't. No casino doing that kind of business, creating that many jobs and producing that kind of state revenue, will ever see midnight.

Of COURSE drawings are biased towards the higher rollers. I only got involved in two of those at Rio over the years, and I played the $1 thru $100 machines there. But at the drawings, I simply showed up for the free suites, did not play because I played at the Palms and the Gold Coast, and both times I got called for the top prize.

Dancer uses these drawings as an unsupportable fill-in for his +EV play creations. There's no way an addict of his caliber would ever keep track of where he is vs. where he needs to be to stop, because he cannot stop regardless.

[redietz]

Rob brings up a salient point about rigging: no Nevada casino has ever had its doors closed for any time for rigging anything.

Now the public can draw one of two conclusions from this. Either (1) it has never happened in the history of Nevada gambling because no casinos ever, ever rigged anything or (2) the gaming commission works for the casinos and there will never be a door closing of a casino unless the casinos line people up and rob them with tommy guns. Now I know which scenario I think is more likely, and I believe this is one of the core attitudes Rob and I share (besides our love of gay nightclubs, of course).

I suspect the whole legal spiel about the "casino reserves the right to amend all rules" regarding drawings and slot clubs pretty much gives them the right to stack drawings with bonus entries for select patrons in any way the please.

[Alan Mendelson]

I think there is a big difference between rigging a drawing and having a drawing that favors certain players, for example, high rollers.

Can someone post a link to a report about the Venetian case? I am unfamiliar with it.

[redietz]

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that very little about that Venetian issue is going to be available to the viewing public. Go ahead and prove me wrong. I'm also going to guess that nothing in the way of where the dudes in charge of the drawing wound up working is going to be public.

Relying on Google for this kind of stuff is like relying on God to tell you about the really hot hookers in hell.

[Alan Mendelson]

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that very little about that Venetian issue is going to be available to the viewing public.

There are no news reports? Is this just gossip and rumor?

[redietz]

What I am saying -- and you must know -- is that searching google is not a process that is unaffected by interested parties. There are ways and means to get certain items ranked or unranked in the google "standings." I suspect those strategies have been employed and this stuff is buried 200 pages into any strategies to find it.

No, it is not rumor or innuendo.

You know, you put an awful lot of faith in Google. Haven't you ever read 1984?

[Alan Mendelson]

Well redietz, let's put the conspiracy theories behind for a moment. When did this incident happen? Let me see what was published. I don't want to think the details are hidden in a storage locker in Arizona or New Mexico.

[Perdition]

http://www.lottoreport.com/022604casinos.htm

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2004...ng-of-contest/

If you Google "Venetian rigged drawings' there are quite a few stories on this. Just probably not the particulars. Maybe it is buried deep like others have suggested in earlier posts.

One of them is under conspiracy theories that turned out to be true and also contained this gem:

1995 to 2004 Jack Abramoff Indian lobbying scandal
The Jack Abramoff Indian lobbying scandal is a United States political scandal relating to the work performed by political lobbyists Jack Abramoff, Ralph E. Reed, Jr., Grover Norquist and Michael Scanlon on behalf of Indian casino gambling interests for an estimated $85 million in fees. Abramoff and Scanlon grossly overbilled their clients, secretly splitting the multimillion-dollar profits. In one case, they secretly orchestrated lobbying against their own clients in order to force them to pay for lobbying services.

[Vegas Vic]

It happened 3 years ago at Caesars Windsor: The monthly contest (in 4 weekly draws) consisted of winning a trip to any Caesars property. To enter, you first had to swipe your card (1 entry) and then you could earn more entries through your play.

Upon arrival, I swiped my card and before playing, we went to the buffet. While eating, my name was announced over the P.A. as the winner for that hourly draw. So, I was guaranteed a trip somewhere (or $1,000 cash...Canadian $)

Up on the stage, I had to spin the big wheel which was aligned with the names of all the possible properties. The contest MC asked me if I had a choice, and I replied "Lake Tahoe". I spun... I won a trip to Tahoe.

Was the contest rigged or weighted in favor of the high rollers with multiple entries? I had one entry. You tell me.

[Alan Mendelson]

Good for you, Vegas Vic!

At the very first "year of the millionaire" monthly drawing at Rincon, one of the players who won $1,000 of free play had only the ONE entry for the ONE credit for swiping her card when she walked into the casino. I was at the Total Rewards desk when the "not so high rollers" came up to complain that someone with only "one credit entry" won the free play and they didnt.

[Dan Druff]

They probably don't rig the small drawings where you win prizes worth $1,000.

But those huge drawings with the $50,000 first prizes? I'm pretty sure that nobody reading this forum has a chance at those -- not even Rob Singer.

[redietz]

Please note that no doors were closed, that these stories did not make Page One of USA Today or the WSJ, and that the comment should be that the executives "lost THESE jobs." Also note the execs were not named, the fact that insiders leaked the info was how these things were "discovered" was also not mentioned, and that no historical review of previous riggings or suspected riggings was included in the article, along with no mention of whether the unnamed execs had done this before, or who was taking the place of the unnamed execs. Also no mention of how Gaming Control or The Venetian would ensure that it didn't happen again.

You get the gist, Alan? Who do you think wound up with the better jobs -- the people who blew the whistle or the execs who were axed?

I personally love the fact that the Venetian was proud of their compliance record but was careful to not say it wouldn't happen again -- no sense letting high rollers think it isn't possible.

Language use and information control are never accidental, as Alan knows. If anything, Rob and I have UNDERstated the problem.

Anybody still think the Gaming Commission works for the tourists?

[Alan Mendelson]

Please note that no doors were closed, that these stories did not make Page One of USA Today or the WSJ,

You don't expect these stories to be on page one of USA Today or the WSJ, do you?

[redietz]

Nice rebuttal, Alan (that was sarcasm).

[Alan Mendelson]

But it's true. Outside of the audience that might read Gaming Today or the LVRJ... outside of Vegas, who would care? Remember, outside of Vegas and outside of regular gamblers, casino gambling is not exactly "socially acceptable" and is considered to be sleaze... and the general public probably wouldn't even think it's out of the ordinary.

As far as the general public is concerned the only thing of interest in Vegas is when people hit megabucks. Or Steve Wynn builds a new hotel.

The general public probably thinks everything in casinos is rigged.

[Vegas Vic]

They probably don't rig the small drawings where you win prizes worth $1,000.

But those huge drawings with the $50,000 first prizes? I'm pretty sure that nobody reading this forum has a chance at those -- not even Rob Singer.

If this is your belief that only the "huge drawings" are rigged, then perhaps you and your friends who are batting .000 need to drop the greed and set your sights lower (since you won't even sniff at a prize worth "only $1,000"). There's a helluva lot of people who, like me, totally appreciate winning a prize like that.

[redietz]

Don't I get an award for predicting, off the cuff, that whatever would show up on google would be murky and self-serving in terms of information? You can't get much murkier than articles whose source is the Gaming Commission refusing to name names or go into rigging history or discuss what would be done to prevent future riggings. The article actually was protective of the people involved. It also did not follow any interview rules and was simply a press release with the exception of the quote from Anthony Curtis (not his real name, of course) at the Las Vegas Advisor.

So the only person with something a tad critical of the casinos in the article is a pseudonym.

Looked at from this perspective, namely a journalistic one, the article is hilarious -- almost like something that would appear in The Onion.