Think about the implications of what Alan is arguing. He's saying that nothing illegal occurred because there may be no laws directly applicable to the drawings.
That may indeed be true, and please allow that to sink in. Because if it's true, every single drawing could be manipulated and rigged with impunity. Alan just made an incredibly strong argument for the existence and possible ubiquity of drawings that are completely not as advertised.
They certainly could. Why don't you and redietz burn your total rewards cards in front of Caesars palace as a protest?Originally Posted by Dan Druff
That's isn't all I said, redietz. Let me repeat that I also said:Originally Posted by redietz
If you guys are complaining that high rollers get extra entries you'll just have to deal with it. If you guys are saying that someone acutally rigged a drawing by having the "winning ticket" in his hand when he was supposed to be having a random draw I agree that is not honest.Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
But if a casino wants to give high rollers more entries for more play there is nothing wrong with that at all. Make sure you understand that and don't bother participating. When I realized I didn't have a chance winning the $50-thou monthly drawings at Rincon I stopped showing up. And I stopped after the first drawing in January.
I believe that in current drawings the casinos clearly state that the number of entries depends on your play. So I don't see why they would be rigged. Every conspiracy theory is nice and all but as long as you don't have proof nothing's wrong. That's how it works in court too isn't it? You are innocent until proven guilty and everybody has to make up his own mind about what he wants to believe. In Holland we have several lotteries. The grand prizes seem to hit in certain areas of the country more than anywhere else? Does this mean the lottery is rigged? I don't think so. More tickets were sold in those areas than in the rest of the country so those areas had "more entries". I think that's pretty simple.
I'm referring directly to the Venetian drawings -- three of them -- that the Venetian admitted were rigged and yet no criminal charges were filed. How does one explain that? Alan makes the point that no laws may directly relate to drawings. This argument may make sense since the slot club is an intermediary that claims it can make any and all adjustments to the terms of the drawings. If this is indeed the case, all drawings and their results could be subject to the same unannounced adjustments.
These are significant ideas. As I said, offering odds on Super Bowl bets involving teams that have been mathematically eliminated is illegal. But slot club points are not cash -- they are earned via cash, which is one step removed. So offering drawings that cannot be won may indeed be legal.
Why do we not know this? No casino, and no Gaming Commission, is going to spell this out for us.
EVERYTHING in a casino is "rigged" to make money or draw in customers. It has been referred to as marketing or just plain ole' business strategy.
You bring up an interesting set of questions. First, I would ask the attorney general or regulators of the casinos in question what the rules are they use to govern casino drawings -- and I would do that before jumping to conclusions.Originally Posted by redietz
But slot club drawings might indeed not be covered by various laws. Perhaps because no purchase is required?
If I have a drawing for a dinner at Caesars and all of the forum members are entered but I choose Vegas _ Lover because I know he can't travel to Vegas from Europe for the scheduled dinner am I committing a crime?
[QUOTE=redietz;16463]These are significant ideas. As I said, offering odds on Super Bowl bets involving teams that have been mathematically eliminated is illegal. But slot club points are not cash -- they are earned via cash, which is one step removed. So offering drawings that cannot be won may indeed be legal.
We had a lottery game here where there was only 1 jackpot ticket printed. Yet after that ticket was hit, they continued to sell tickets for that game. It was ruled to be legal because they had printed x number of tickets and could continue to sell them, and the odds were clearly printed on the back of the ticket as 1 in whatever million. You were supposed to know somehow that the 1 winning ticket had already been cashed. How anyone would know this I don't know as it was just a scratchoff, not a publicized mega lottery.
I was at a local casino here once and my wife purchased one of those break open "Nevada" tickets. She won the $1000 first place prize. The lady pushing the cart immediately went into the back. After we got our cash we saw the lady pushing the cart with the same clear plastic box that was still 3/4 full of tickets about 10 minutes later. The only big prize was won, but the remaining tickets were still being sold.
IMHO, the draws that casinos put on are only subject to their own rules. The draws take place on private property and they make up their own rules. Whenever I get invited to a drawing, I just hope the offer comes along with a free room / food / freeplay. I don't expect anything from drawings. The most I've ever won from those things is a polo shirt once during a slot tournament.
Actually every state has laws for lotterys, raffles, pull tabs, etc. They cannot simply do whatever they please. The question is--will the laws be enforced. Remember, no one has any sympathy for an aggrieved gambler because gambling is bad. No one really cares if a gambler got cheated. When I have represented gamblers before the gaming board or the casino, they just try to make you go away. But I am persistent and compulsive and wont go away. That, more than any legal skill, has won those cases.
This discussion underscores why Bob Dancer's use of drawing guesstimates to establish where one should play video poker is silly. His guesstimates may be complete fiction and may do a great disservice to readers.
Here you go back to criticizing Dancer over his promotions strategy. I think this is a waste of time, just as I thought it was a waste of time for Dancer to write about them in his public column. And it was a waste of time because I don't know anyone who plays video poker with the kind of bankroll that Dancer has and also has the time to chase these promotions. His discussion about playing for these promotions is so high and above the rest of us real world players that it was a waste of space. I would have much rather read some discussion about holds and draws in various games which is what Dancer used to be about. And what's really ironic is that sometimes Dancer ran out of money chasing the promotions he was chasing.Originally Posted by redietz
But Dancer has nothing to do with rigged drawings, so why do you mention him? Is it part of your personal campaign to blast Dancer much like Rob Singer's? Sometimes you make me think that redietz and Singer are one and the same.
I wish. I'm not as well hung as Rob.
But seriously, it only took you three years to figure that out?
Last edited by redietz; 10-18-2013 at 08:53 AM.
Figure out what?Originally Posted by redietz
About Dancer and his promotion chasing? I read his columns in the same way that motorists on the freeway slow down to look at the wreckage from accidents.
No, no -- figure out that the two guys named Rob are one and the same.
It's the recent love affair you have been having for Rob lately. At least you both appear to have a common enemy: Bob Dancer.Originally Posted by redietz
In short, rigging a drawing to where results are pre-determined is a crime.Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
Rigging a drawing to where a player has an overwhelming chance to win but is NOT predetermined is not a crime, provided that you do not mislead players into believing they have better odds than they actually do.
My problem is that Caesar's does NOT state complete rules in these drawings. They just tell you that you get a certain number of base entries, and a certain number of extra entries by earning tier credits. They do NOT tell you what everyone else starts with, or what they can earn. This is a legal loophole that allows them to essentially shut out lower and middle limit players from their major drawings.
Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com
Be realistic Dan. I think everyone realizes that bigger players have an advantage.
Such simplicity....a belief that rigged drawings are a crime is only applicable to those who's lives would be turned upside down if they had the wherewithal and desire to open their minds up to what the drivers really are in the world of gambling. Coming onto forums and delivering lectures on what's "legal" in the outside world (which to one seriously misled bloviating soul here, it's clear that he also believes there's an on-line gambling legal fairy who is pure of heart & mind) and thinking those morals (&, if corrupted, their resulting punishments) equally apply to casinos----this nonsense is really no different than another phony story conjured up by Dancer in one of his columns. Total amateurs.
Rob, what did you say?
By the way, it may be helpful to point out that there seem to be some strong correlations here. Those folks who have spent the most time gambling in Las Vegas seem to be the same folks who think there's no legal gambling fairy that keeps all casinos on the straight and narrow path. And those folks who have spent the most time in non-recreational gambling (i.e. winning) are also those folks who have the least belief in the legal gambling fairy.
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