7 Stars Cruise

[Dan Druff]

I think people who concern themselves about tipping have locus of control issues. They are having, to be specific, external locus of control issues. They are concerned how they appear to others. Context is driving their behavior. That was the point of my automated dealer question -- would you tip if no one was looking, including the dealer?

The fact that some people tip after winning, in fact, suggests that context is driving their behavior rather than an aspect of their personality.

By the way, Alan, your remark that professionals who don't tip have financial issues was way, way out of line. You have no basis and no reason to have said that. Poker professionals get grief all the time -- your buddies at Caesars/Harrah's instituted mandatory tipping for WSOP tourneys, which is half the reason poker players want to barf when the subject of tipping comes up. And dealers expect tips on top of the mandatory tips! It's ridiculous.

There's an oxymoron for you: mandatory tipping.

I do tip poker dealers, but if an auto-tip has been taken out of the prize pool, I tip nothing extra.

My rationale: If you have a guaranteed tip, then you have no incentive to serve me well. You can be horrible, and your tip will still be there. Therefore, this guarantee is all you get. If you want more, drop the guaranteed tip.

If there is no auto-tip, I do tip 3% on my cash, provided the dealers were decent and not rude to me.

I get mad when they ask me at the Rio, "Do you want to leave a tip for the tournament staff?", and don't bother to tell me that I already left one via the auto-tip. I know the truth, but I bet a lot of inexperienced players get tricked into doing this. They almost tricked me into this during my first WSOP in 2005, but I told them, "I'll think about it and get back to you later", consulted with a more experienced friend, and obviously never returned to tip.

[Alan Mendelson]

If I recall, the "fee" was either one-half percent or one-percent which doesn't come close to the 3% which is recognized as the "standard tip" for cashing in a tournament.

[Dan Druff]

If I recall, the "fee" was either one-half percent or one-percent which doesn't come close to the 3% which is recognized as the "standard tip" for cashing in a tournament.

The fee is 1.8%, I believe.

But that's what they get for guaranteeing a staff tip.

If there is NOT an auto-tip, I have the discretion to leave anywhere between 0 and 3%, depending upon how the dealing and attitudes were. (I usually leave 3, provided there's not an issue.) Once there's an auto-tip, I do not want to tip above that, because I am deprived of the right to tip less than that if everything is terrible.

Same reason I don't tip above 18% at restaurants where they force me to tip 18% with a large party.

[Alan Mendelson]

If there is no auto-tip, I do tip 3% on my cash, provided the dealers were decent and not rude to me.

If I recall, the "fee" was either one-half percent or one-percent which doesn't come close to the 3% which is recognized as the "standard tip" for cashing in a tournament.

The fee is 1.8%, I believe.

But that's what they get for guaranteeing a staff tip.

If there is NOT an auto-tip, I have the discretion to leave anywhere between 0 and 3%, depending upon how the dealing and attitudes were. (I usually leave 3, provided there's not an issue.) Once there's an auto-tip, I do not want to tip above that, because I am deprived of the right to tip less than that if everything is terrible.

So, three questions:

1. If you know the fee is 1.8% and you usually tip 3% why not leave the difference of 1.2% ??
2. By not leaving any tip, and letting the 1.8% fee remain as the only compensation, are you saying that all of the dealers gave you lousy service?
3. By not leaving any additional tip for the dealers are you punishing the dealers for the company's effort to protect their income from total non tippers?

[Dan Druff]

So, three questions:

1. If you know the fee is 1.8% and you usually tip 3% why not leave the difference of 1.2% ??
2. By not leaving any tip, and letting the 1.8% fee remain as the only compensation, are you saying that all of the dealers gave you lousy service?
3. By not leaving any additional tip for the dealers are you punishing the dealers for the company's effort to protect their income from total non tippers?

The 1.2% is the penalty for guaranteeing themselves a tip and depriving me the ability to leave no tip if I so desire.

Even if this was a move to prevent dealers from losing income from non-tippers, what it actually does is force me to tip. If you ever force me to tip, that will be the maximum you ever get from me, because it violates the whole concept of tipping (giving someone non-mandatory money in exchange fro good service).

[Alan Mendelson]

The 1.2% is the penalty for guaranteeing themselves a tip and depriving me the ability to leave no tip if I so desire.

I can accept that.

But who are you penalizing? And is that what you think is the right thing to do?

[Vegas_lover]

Congratulations. You do what most people who never have much cash on them do, and who usually leave with little to no cash in their wallet. That's also why you and some others here so look forward to those GGWU extravaganzas. FINALLY, something that doesn't cost a fortune.

Define much cash? Much cash is relative. For one $300 might be much cash, for another
$ 50.000 might be much cash. And as always this post is completely based on assumption. And to make things even worse, as always this post was just meant to insult Dan Druff. You're just being your usual despicable self again. Keep the good stuff coming speedo

[Rob.Singer]

Rob, several years ago, when I told you about how the GGWU changed the rules so that play at other TR casinos outside of Vegas were now awarded GGWU points you expressed some regret that you didn't know about the change because you also could have cashed in.

Why are you so sour now on the GGWU freebies? You didn't have to do anything extra to get these benefits? They don't take away from your other comps. They are simply an add-on?

You, of all people, who always tries to take the casinos for everything possible (it's you against the casinos, as we all know) should be all over this.

And since you have been playing with your card recently (since you are no longer a professional using SPS only) you must have points stored up. Why not pick up a free gas card or even some free play? What part of the word "free" do you not like?

I'm not against the program if you train yourself how to manipulate it to your advantage - specifically, by not running to casinos because they are offering multiple points, and even more specifically, by playing with a solid, non-alterable plan with goals that will allow you to actually win their money consistently and overall. That's what I've always done, and that's what I teach others to do. Shooting for statuses and "free" cruise offers is what people who generally lose do.

[Alan Mendelson]

I'm not against the program if you train yourself how to manipulate it to your advantage - specifically, by not running to casinos because they are offering multiple points, and even more specifically, by playing with a solid, non-alterable plan with goals that will allow you to actually win their money consistently and overall. That's what I've always done, and that's what I teach others to do. Shooting for statuses and "free" cruise offers is what people who generally lose do.

So in other words, Rob, since you don't know if anyone has been doing anything "foolish" all you've been doing is blowing a lot of hot air??

[Rob.Singer]

Define much cash? Much cash is relative. For one $300 might be much cash, for another
$ 50.000 might be much cash. And as always this post is completely based on assumption. And to make things even worse, as always this post was just meant to insult Dan Druff. You're just being your usual despicable self again. Keep the good stuff coming speedo

My post was to demonstrate what a confused and inexperienced gambler Druff appears to be. He rails on the concept of valet parking, yet he doesn't seem to understand that it is nearly 100% safe and far safer than going to & from parking areas or garages on foot. And what do people usually carry on those excursions? Yes VL, CASH! What you are right about is it only matters what the amount is to the individual. For your bonus teachable moment VL, I suggest you learn from D Druff about CET's TR program if you ever get enuf scratch together to play in them.

[Rob.Singer]

So in other words, Rob, since you don't know if anyone has been doing anything "foolish" all you've been doing is blowing a lot of hot air??

Not exactly. You post a lot, and I can tell very easily from what you say that the TR program controls you far beyond the problem gambler mark. Ditto for Druff. The two of you are toyed with and played like fiddles by CET Mgmt. Nothing either of you talk about doing is unexpected by CET.

[Alan Mendelson]

There you go again Rob. When backed into a corner you pull out the "problem gambler" card to play. Sorry for the gambling analogy, but it makes perfect sense.

Here's a little reality for you: you've burned down all of your other bridges and this one is now on fire.

[redietz]

I just want to chime in and agree with Dan Druff on the tipping issue -- I did not know "auto-tip" as the proper lingo, but I have adopted it, so thanks for that.

"Mandatory tipping" seems to me to be a blatant contradiction in terms. If casinos can't afford to pay their dealers, why stick it on the public, which is paying through the nose for hotel rooms and food during the WSOP events anyway? A big problem is that CET can't collect enough top notch dealers for their busy time, so they realize there will be problems at some tables during some events. Rather than pay dealers more, or rather than have dealers revolt because people won't tip for bad service (because there aren't enough good dealers), CET instituted the "auto-tips."

By the way, Alan, I don't buy your statement about a "standard 3% tip." Who quoted you that particular rate? CET? I have read a few poker books -- in fact I read Amarillo Slim's first book back in the 70's -- and I've read a lot of bitching about poker host casinos trying to strong arm people in sleazy fashion (similar to Dan Druff's experience) to leave these tips.

[Alan Mendelson]

By the way, Alan, I don't buy your statement about a "standard 3% tip." Who quoted you that particular rate? CET?

It's standard in the various tournaments I have played. If you never heard that before, that's fine. I'm not going to create a thirty page discussion over it.

Edited to add: read this http://www.pokerlistings.com/blog/po...f-your-dealers

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news...naments-part-i

[regnis]

Having been on the other side for several years ( as a stickman), I was tipped very generously and maybe that is one reason I tip as a player. I was paid $1,000 per night to deal for 8 hours (and that was 20-25 years ago), and the tips were usually double or triple that--at least (split 50-50 with the house, and our 50% split 4 ways. We gave great service and ran a professional game and it was my job to control the game as the stick. I did everything I could do to get people to tip us, but I hope it was the great game we ran and the humor that I liked to inject that kept the tips rolling. I don't begrudge any of you who don't tip--that's your perogative--but the game was more fun if the dealers were happy and on your side.

[Vegas_lover]

My post was to demonstrate what a confused and inexperienced gambler Druff appears to be. He rails on the concept of valet parking, yet he doesn't seem to understand that it is nearly 100% safe and far safer than going to & from parking areas or garages on foot. And what do people usually carry on those excursions? Yes VL, CASH! What you are right about is it only matters what the amount is to the individual. For your bonus teachable moment VL, I suggest you learn from D Druff about CET's TR program if you ever get enuf scratch together to play in them.

A lot of words to just repeat insults. Poor boy, you must have been bullied around a lot. Keep on going at it though. Never thought credibility could fall below zero but it looks like that's going to be your next achievement. Dancer resembles Gandhi compared to you.

[Alan Mendelson]

I forgot: does Rob Singer tip car valets?

[Dan Druff]

A big problem is that CET can't collect enough top notch dealers for their busy time, so they realize there will be problems at some tables during some events. Rather than pay dealers more, or rather than have dealers revolt because people won't tip for bad service (because there aren't enough good dealers), CET instituted the "auto-tips."

That's exactly what happened.

[Dan Druff]

Not exactly. You post a lot, and I can tell very easily from what you say that the TR program controls you far beyond the problem gambler mark. Ditto for Druff. The two of you are toyed with and played like fiddles by CET Mgmt. Nothing either of you talk about doing is unexpected by CET.

The basic rule of thumb with casinos is this:

If they are taking steps to thwart what you're doing, then you're doing something right.

Casinos are in the business to make money. If a gambler is engaging in behaviors making the house money, the casino will encourage him to keep coming back and doing the same thing.

However, if a gambler is doing something to cause a casino to LOSE money (aside from getting lucky at otherwise negative expectation games), they will make changes to prevent this.

CET does NOT like Seven Stars grinders. They want these customers out of the Seven Stars program, or at the very least, to pay a lot more to get there and receive a lot fewer perks when they do.

In just the past year, CET has taken four actions against Seven Stars grinders:

- Lowered value of offers

- Cut tier credit earnings by a factor of 2.5x at many of its highest-odds video poker

- Changed Seven Stars tier requirement to 150,000, making it more difficult for locals grinding low-limit machines daily to get there

- Clamped down upon "back-to-back" offer redemption


These were NOT random decisions. They came from the top, where it was (correctly) concluded that Seven Stars grinders like myself are milking a rewards system created to award huge losers. They realized that a dedicated Seven Stars grinder can actually substantially beat the system, cashing in more in freeplay and benefits than it will cost them to reach Seven Stars. This doesn't even include other real costs to Caesar's for these players, such as administrative costs and countless free hotel rooms.

Under the current system (ignoring the $25/tier VP machines), a player at 9-6 JoB has an expected loss of just $2300 with optimal play to reach Seven Stars.

Seven Stars benefits can EASILY be cashed in for FAR more than $2300, just running the freeplay alone, which was exceeding well over $1000 per month in Las Vegas, even for the lowest level Seven Stars.

So you can see how Caesar's wasn't happy with the proliferation of such grinders.

[Alan Mendelson]

In just the past year, CET has taken four actions against Seven Stars grinders:

- Lowered value of offers

- Cut tier credit earnings by a factor of 2.5x at many of its highest-odds video poker

- Changed Seven Stars tier requirement to 150,000, making it more difficult for locals grinding low-limit machines daily to get there

- Clamped down upon "back-to-back" offer redemption

All of this is true, even at Rincon. My offers in both Vegas and at Rincon in the past year have been cut by about 50%. While Rincon has not instituted the $25/tier-point system they have eliminated nearly all of the full pay video poker games -- few remain. The increase to 150,000 tier points eliminated many 7stars potential players. My son will finish the year with 115,000 tier points. In previous years he would have been 7stars... now just diamond. And back-to-back comps have been virtually eliminated -- and there was a time when at midnight you could use successive daily free play offers and now you have to wait till 8am for the new "gaming day" to start.