Bob Dancer's Relationship with Video Poker

[Alan Mendelson]

Count Room I don't have the statistics but I think it's a pretty good bet that only a small percentage of the Total Rewards members around the country and around the world actually go to Las Vegas for the Great Gift Wrap Up events. Therefore I don't think many players even bat an eye at the promotion.

Frankly, I think Rob is making a big deal out of it because he finally realized how many thousands of dollars of gas cards he could have gotten but didn't. It must really hurt him.

[Rob.Singer]

That's funny. While you and others like you were over-anxiously waiting for & going to the GGWU complete with racing hearts and sweaty palms for all those "free" gas cards, I was winning almost $50,000 at a CET property. You see, all it takes is smart gambling--not a continuous, rambunctious point accumulation frenzy.

[Vegas_lover]

That's funny. While you and others like you were over-anxiously waiting for & going to the GGWU complete with racing hearts and sweaty palms for all those "free" gas cards, I was winning almost $50,000 at a CET property. You see, all it takes is smart gambling--not a continuous, rambunctious point accumulation frenzy.

And yet again another post filled with complete and utter BS. It's very clear you're just being a troll Rob. Since one thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Your only purpose is to piss people off and make an ass out of yourself. Alan, why do you keep giving this trailer trash a platform?

[Alan Mendelson]

Vegas_lover what Rob is doing is obvious. Next he will tell us that he planned on hitting that $50k winner and it wasn't luck at all. Let him keep digging... he can't get out.

[Count Room]

I see two options here with Rob. Remember that I write this down not knowing for sure whether he won the million dollars or not.

a) Rob won the million dollars and is living the life he claims he is living: Good for him, and in a way I need to defend him in this case. If you ran into a person who made a million dollars at the casino and he was willing to share for free exactly how he did it along with dispensing with worldly advice on how to deal with the casinos in general, wouldn't you overlook his abrasive tendencies to some extent?

b) Rob didn't win the million dollars and is living in a dilapidated trailer park or apartment faking his wins on the internet. In that case I won't blame any forum administrator for banning him, but keeping him on would still provide entertaining emotional stirrings for the other forum onlookers. (In other words, it would be a more boring place without him even if he's a total liar....which....I truly don't know.)

EDIT: We all know what a brutal and cruel game video poker can be. It probably makes for angry souls even amongst the ranks of long-term winners.

STORY: I once knew a Vegas AP years ago who would email me regularly. Whenever he was pissed off at me about politics all I had to do was ask: "Did you have a tough day at the machines today?" "Yeah." The political chat always ended immediately thereafter.

[Rob.Singer]

And yet again another post filled with complete and utter BS. It's very clear you're just being a troll Rob. Since one thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Your only purpose is to piss people off and make an ass out of yourself. Alan, why do you keep giving this trailer trash a platform?

Yet another example of menstrual-mouth type babble from jealous Euro-trash

[Rob.Singer]

I see two options here with Rob. Remember that I write this down not knowing for sure whether he won the million dollars or not.

a) Rob won the million dollars and is living the life he claims he is living: Good for him, and in a way I need to defend him in this case. If you ran into a person who made a million dollars at the casino and he was willing to share for free exactly how he did it along with dispensing with worldly advice on how to deal with the casinos in general, wouldn't you overlook his abrasive tendencies to some extent?

b) Rob didn't win the million dollars and is living in a dilapidated trailer park or apartment faking his wins on the internet. In that case I won't blame any forum administrator for banning him, but keeping him on would still provide entertaining emotional stirrings for the other forum onlookers. (In other words, it would be a more boring place without him even if he's a total liar....which....I truly don't know.)

EDIT: We all know what a brutal and cruel game video poker can be. It probably makes for angry souls even amongst the ranks of long-term winners.

STORY: I once knew a Vegas AP years ago who would email me regularly. Whenever he was pissed off at me about politics all I had to do was ask: "Did you have a tough day at the machines today?" "Yeah." The political chat always ended immediately thereafter.

A. Other than oneself, no one would ever KNOW for certain if and how much anyone else has won or lost. So your first point is moot.

B. The life we are living, to many, would in fact be less than ideal. We never had a clue up until we became interested, and right up until then, this type of life either didn't exist, it was for losers, or it made no sense. But when it all came together for us, we bought the best RV we could afford ($600k), and we went big (44', or about 4x the biggest available in beautiful Holland....and don't say this too loud, but it even has its own little engine along with one of them AUTOMATIC transmissions ). Our being blessed with good health so far contributed to this decision. You've seen a partial picture of it with Cindy & Porsha this past year. However, my vp success has zero to do with our life today. We'd be doing this whether I won a million dollars or lost $171,600.

C. Your use of "brutal & cruel" is the same as my labeling the game as "unforgiving". And that's exactly why there is so much animosity that always surfaces when I explain what it took--and yes, continues to take--to consistently beat the game, and the torment I cause whenever I or Alan posts my larger winners. It is no different than the contemptuous reactions from certain readers of my past Gaming Today column.

Finally, it takes tough words to help people see beyond the fluff of the Total Rewards program, and even those won't make it thru their thick blinders. But everybody gets it, for sure. And with even greater certainty, no one ever wants to read about their addiction to gambling by a bona fide winner. Especially the arrogant Dutch

[Count Room]

A. Other than oneself, no one would ever KNOW for certain if and how much anyone else has won or lost. So your first point is moot.

All the other things you said are fair enough, but I have to disagree with the quote above. You can take the Mitt Romney approach and never show the tax returns, but just know that if what you are saying isn't truthful it would be to your advantage to keep the crowd confused as to what actually happened. In other words, the confusion keeps the fun going for many years even if you didn't win anything overall..

Personally if I was a million dollar winner the solution would be very simple: Only show Alan the returns and have him verify the contents personally without having to post everything to the public at large. I would definitely trust Alan's ethics as a journalist for something like that.

[Vegas_lover]

A. Other than oneself, no one would ever KNOW for certain if and how much anyone else has won or lost. So your first point is moot.

B. The life we are living, to many, would in fact be less than ideal. We never had a clue up until we became interested, and right up until then, this type of life either didn't exist, it was for losers, or it made no sense. But when it all came together for us, we bought the best RV we could afford ($600k), and we went big (44', or about 4x the biggest available in beautiful Holland....and don't say this too loud, but it even has its own little engine along with one of them AUTOMATIC transmissions ). Our being blessed with good health so far contributed to this decision. You've seen a partial picture of it with Cindy & Porsha this past year. However, my vp success has zero to do with our life today. We'd be doing this whether I won a million dollars or lost $171,600.

C. Your use of "brutal & cruel" is the same as my labeling the game as "unforgiving". And that's exactly why there is so much animosity that always surfaces when I explain what it took--and yes, continues to take--to consistently beat the game, and the torment I cause whenever I or Alan posts my larger winners. It is no different than the contemptuous reactions from certain readers of my past Gaming Today column.

Finally, it takes tough words to help people see beyond the fluff of the Total Rewards program, and even those won't make it thru their thick blinders. But everybody gets it, for sure. And with even greater certainty, no one ever wants to read about their addiction to gambling by a bona fide winner. Especially the arrogant Dutch

Poor Robbie, he's trying so hard to insult me and he's getting nowhere. Let me enlighten you again Bubba:

About the big ass trailer that's not available in Holland, nobody cares! We live in a small country, you couldn't go anywhere with a monster like that. So your attempt to insult Europeans with the fact that your RV's are bigger than ours is just plain funny. Are you compensating for other shortcomings Rob? What's also very funny is emphasising the automatic transmission as if it's something special. On this side of the ocean we've had that feature for decades so hooray for Rob . Want to talk about fuel consumption? You may pass some beautiful sights during your travels but there's one thing you won't pass, a fuel station. I hope you're happy driving through the most beautiful National and State parcs while destroying them at the same time with the horrible amounts of exhaust fumes you're spreading. I know you don't care about that, you only care about Robbie.

The arrogant Dutch would certainly be interested in reading your gambling stories and advice. But the arrogant Dutch call it as they see it and poor little Robbie has so many ego issues he doesn't play well with people who don't agree with him. Have you been beaten alot when you were a child Rob? You really seem to have some mental issues. You call people gambling addicts at random and whenever they don't agree with you. People you don't know at all! I for example only gamble when I'm in Vegas, the last time I was in Vegas was 10 months ago, I don't even belong to the TR club, I only play and stay at Mlife properties. So Rob, the last time I gambled was 10 months ago, you're still gambling daily, who's the addict around here?

When you are talking about needing to use tough words to guide the misled sheep, you claim to be doing so with noble intentions. Let's please stick to the facts Robbie shall we? You start shouting and insulting as soon as somebody disagrees with you or as soon as somebody demands some proof for all the bullshit you spread. Since you don't have ANY proof the only thing you can do is divert. And that's exactly what you do all the time in a poor attempt to cover up al your fantasies. Continue to enjoy your life in lala-land Rob while the rest of us stick to reality.

The funniest response you've got when people don't worship you is playing the jealousy card. News flash Rob, there's absolutely nothing about you to be jealous about. I raise my kids to be the exact opposite of characters like you. And don't be too excited about that 1 million dollars Rob, it's really not that big of a deal.

Signed, Euro trash number 1 and proud of it!

[Alan Mendelson]

I've never doubted Rob's wins but I think luck played more of a factor than Rob will own up to.

His behavior on forums including this one is unforgiveable.

How he treats those who disagree with him is infantile.

He has destroyed his chance for respect and admiration by how he attacks others who challenge him. Politics is not in his future.

He probably does have much to teach but he has alienated so many he lost his potential audience.

He will never be remembered as a winner. Too bad.

[redietz]

So let me get this straight, Alan. Wikipedia is a fine source for defining what "full pay" video poker is or should be, but somehow falls short of defining Bob Dancer? You really should make up your mind.

I was in Las Vegas approximately 100 days a year when video poker became more than a couple of wayward machines here or there. At that time, full pay did not refer to the best-paying variant of particular games. It referred to games that returned 100% if played properly. The corrosion of that definition, of course, started when pay tables began to be gutted.

So by your definition, if 8/5 JoB is the "most common variant" of video poker, then it becomes, by definition, "full pay."

CET must love you.

[Alan Mendelson]

So let me get this straight, Alan. Wikipedia is a fine source for defining what "full pay" video poker is or should be, but somehow falls short of defining Bob Dancer? You really should make up your mind.

What was written about Dancer was a hack job. I only cited Wikipedia as being one source of what "full pay video poker" is. Here are more places to find this info on the web:

http://www.online-casinos.com/video-...ideo-poker.asp
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic...as_Nevada.html
http://gambling.answers.com/online-c...ay-video-poker
http://wizardofodds.com/games/video-...er/9-6/simple/

I also put the question on the Wizard's forum, check the responses here plus the Wizard's own response. Redietz why don't you challenge the Wizard? I am sure he would like to hear from you.

http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambl.../2/#post314785

So by your definition, if 8/5 JoB is the "most common variant" of video poker, then it becomes, by definition, "full pay."

You know damn well that even at Caesars Palace FULL PAY 9/6 Jacks of Better video poker is available.

I think you've become a troll.

[Dan Druff]

Debating the definition of full pay is stupid.

Times change, and so does video poker.

There are so many absolute crap machines these days that 99%+ machines are considered the good ones, if you want to play video poker.

Obviously those machines will add up to a loss in the long run. I don't think anyone except Rob Singer is arguing against that.

[redietz]

So Alan and Dan, if 8/5 JoB were the most common variant of video poker, would you be referring to it as "full pay?"

I feel it's my job to remind people that there was a time, an era, longer than the present era, when "full pay" meant "full pay" -- not "most common variant." It's also my job to remind people that 6/5 blackjack is a latecomer freak game that did not exist for the majority of casino existence in this country. At one time, there were "good gambles" -- as Binion used to say -- in Las Vegas casinos that were superior to what is available today. Without these comparisons, newcomers to the gambling scene would think that today's odds were yesterday's odds, and that today's comp systems were yesterday's comp systems, which is not the case. And this "not the case" is to the detriment of the players. What 50 years ago would have been considered playing the customer for a fool is now the widely accepted status quo both in terms of odds and comps.

The dominant monopolies, CET and MGM/Mandalay, have lowered the floor for gambling odds in Las Vegas. They, especially CET, have driven the changes in gambling odds.

[Nash]

I was at Caesars over the weekend. There are plenty of machines that pay 9/6 on DB by the sports book and the video poker room by the entrance to the Forum Shops. I don't know if they are new there or not as I usually stay at Harrah's or Planet Hollywood. Aside from the royal that was dealt to me on DB I actually did better over the long run on TB.

[a2a3dseddie]

I feel it's my job to remind people that there was a time, an era, longer than the present era, when "full pay" meant "full pay" -- not "most common variant." It's also my job to remind people that 6/5 blackjack is a latecomer freak game that did not exist for the majority of casino existence in this country.

Why do you "feel it's your job"? I think for the most part the people on this forum are fairly knowledgeable when it comes to casino gambling in their respective games of choice.

If you're going to be gambling anyways, shouldn't you shop around for the best odds as well as the best comps? I imagine Alan could could acheive the highest tier level in any of the casinos in Las Vegas. To my knowledge though, there isn't a MGM Mirage resort, a Wynn resort, a Station's resort or a Coast Casino in California. Why all the hate for CET?

[Alan Mendelson]

I think you asked a fair question, even though you are trying to be silly, arrogant and combative:

So Alan and Dan, if 8/5 JoB were the most common variant of video poker, would you be referring to it as "full pay?"

No, it's not. We all know that "full pay JOB" is 9/6 and we know that the casinos have downgraded their paytables. 8/5 Jacks would never be called "full pay" because it is now the dominant game at casinos such as Rincon.

I feel it's my job to remind people that there was a time, an era, longer than the present era, when "full pay" meant "full pay" -- not "most common variant."

Your job? Since when are you the video poker authority? I thought you sold sports betting tips? I also thought you rarely play video poker? Again, I think you should be raising these questions and making these statements over on The Wizard's forum.

It's also my job to remind people that 6/5 blackjack is a latecomer freak game that did not exist for the majority of casino existence in this country. At one time, there were "good gambles" -- as Binion used to say -- in Las Vegas casinos that were superior to what is available today. Without these comparisons, newcomers to the gambling scene would think that today's odds were yesterday's odds, and that today's comp systems were yesterday's comp systems, which is not the case. And this "not the case" is to the detriment of the players. What 50 years ago would have been considered playing the customer for a fool is now the widely accepted status quo both in terms of odds and comps.

The dominant monopolies, CET and MGM/Mandalay, have lowered the floor for gambling odds in Las Vegas. They, especially CET, have driven the changes in gambling odds.

I think you're coming late to the party redietz. You're not telling us anything new.

[Alan Mendelson]

If you're going to be gambling anyways, shouldn't you shop around for the best odds as well as the best comps? I imagine Alan could could acheive the highest tier level in any of the casinos in Las Vegas. To my knowledge though, there isn't a MGM Mirage resort, a Wynn resort, a Station's resort or a Coast Casino in California. Why all the hate for CET?

This is a real problem that I discussed with a friend last night. We all know that with a few exceptions like the remaining 8/5 Aces and Faces games at Rincon that video poker sucks at Rincon. In the California Casinos forum I wrote about a small casino a short distance from Rincon that has better video poker than Rincon. Pala and Pechanga also have better video poker games than Rincon. But none of these casinos is linked to a Vegas casino.

Now, if I were a professional player and had to play at the absolute best machines because my career depended on it, I would certainly play at one of these other casinos. But as a recreational player I am also concerned with the "fringe benefits" that I get from Rincon including those Vegas trips and events and shows. This is why we initially switched from playing at Pechanga to Rincon. While Pechanga had its own yearly gift bonus (like the Great Gift Wrap Up at Caesars), and also had cash back and free play offers -- playing at Pechanga did nothing for me when it came to going to Vegas.

And getting back to my discussion last night -- I said to my friend that if the last of the "good video poker" were to be removed from Rincon then instead of making my trips to Rincon I would be better off taking advantage of the monthly offers I get from Caesars and just go to Vegas once a month.

In fact, as it stands now, I get $1,000 of free play in Vegas each month, which is about the same as what I am getting now from Rincon each month. But with Rincon I would have to make four trips per month vs one trip to Caesars. Factor in the gas and mileage it makes more sense to make one trip to Caesars per month than four trips to Rincon. In the short term what keeps me going to Rincon is that there are some smaller fringe benefits that I am still getting such as extra Total Rewards comp dollars which can be converted into free play either at Rincon or Caesars. Right now, those extra comps that are converted could be worth as much as about $1,300 of free play if I "work the system" right.

And for Rob: that $1,300 of extra free play per month is about $16,000 of free play a year... just for swiping my card.

[Rob.Singer]

Alan you're so misguided and could use a little advice. You're using those one or two games at Rincon as some sort of crutch, when you well know you can beat any reasonable pay table at any casino if you approach it properly. You need a change just like I did when I found that ap play was a loser for me.

All that wonderful sounding free play? The more you play, the more free play they bestow upon you. That's irrelevant. The only important aspect is if you win. Period. All the rest is a result the psychologically superior game the casino plays with you....they toy with you just like the foolish GGWU makes fools out of all you oh-so-special 7-Stars folks.

[Alan Mendelson]

Alan you're so misguided and could use a little advice. You're using those one or two games at Rincon as some sort of crutch, when you well know you can beat any reasonable pay table at any casino if you approach it properly. You need a change just like I did when I found that ap play was a loser for me.

All that wonderful sounding free play? The more you play, the more free play they bestow upon you. That's irrelevant. The only important aspect is if you win. Period. All the rest is a result the psychologically superior game the casino plays with you....they toy with you just like the foolish GGWU makes fools out of all you oh-so-special 7-Stars folks.

Rob, step back a minute and take this in: your comments are irrelevant. This is not a discussion about beating negative paytables, so take a time out. This is only a discussion about the paytables and quality of the games being offered.

Because I play less -- much less -- than I used to play my free play has been cut and cut and cut. And never did I say anything about winning or losing... so these are more irrelevant comments.

For once... just once... please put your own agenda aside or put them into your own thread. Must you muck up every discussion with your own crap?