Bob Dancer's Relationship with Video Poker

[Alan Mendelson]

you obviously have no ability to leave even when way ahead,

Being up $800 on free play is not "way ahead" in my book.

I was told this by MGM employees in the high limit room. He even wrote about some of it.

Hearsay if it came from employees. So why don't you quote or link to the articles where Dancer wrote about it -- because that would be important information.

[Count Room]

And again more blablablablabla. I don't ride motorcycles and even if I would it would never be a Harley. They're more broken than running. Rob you have an "America the greatest arrogance" that makes people around the world hate Americans more and more. Why? Because your arrogance is misplaced. Want some examples? The debt load of your country is incredible, your automobile industry uses ancient technology (big petrol burning engines, shaky technics, break down easily, etc), the differences between rich and poor in your country are enormous, you're not the economic world leader anymore, etc.

Why is it I see more and more Hyundai's, BMW's, Honda's, Nissan's, Acura's, Volkwagens, Mercedes, etc in the United States? Because they are generally more reliable than American cars and because they don't burn so much fuel. The intolerance between black and white in your country and the way the majority looks at gay people is startling. But yet, you claim to bring democracy around the world. How many people in your country live in poverty? How many people in your country don't have health insurance?

Let me tell you something about the Chinese. I've never been to China but I know a lot of Dutch Chinese people. Never have I met a disrespectful Chinese person. Never have I met a Dutch-Chinese entrepeneur who went bancrupt. Wanne know why? Those people help eachother, they want their own people to succeed. My children play with Chinese children. So yes Rob, I would choose 99% of the Chinese population over arrogant American blowhards like you.

Folks, don't get me wrong, you have a beautiful country and wonderful people living there. I call many Americans friends. It's the ultra right-wing, redneck, arrogant, intolerant SOB's like Rob Singer who are giving Americans around the world a bad reputation. It's the "bow down or be crushed" additude that's sickening. Remember Rob, America is what it is today because Holland, Great Britain and France OWNED you in the past. It's incredible to see how a person who claims to be so intelligent can act so ignorant.

*Count Room prepares himself some hot, fresh, fluffy, buttery popcorn in anticipation of Rob's response.

[Alan Mendelson]

*Count Room prepares himself some hot, fresh, fluffy, buttery popcorn in anticipation of Rob's response.

Did anyone else notice that the doomsday clock is at 5 minutes till midnight? The announcement was made yesterday. I wonder if this forum had anything to do with it?

[regnis]

You made me google that one Alan. I had never even heard of the "doomsday clock". Some days I feel my alarm clock is a doomsday clock though!!

[redietz]

The Doomsday Clock was closer to midnight back in our youth, Alan, if I recall correctly.

Vegas Lover, you skipped the stuff about the US science and math ratings, so I am very disappointed. Those ratings explain why Penn says, at the beginning of his show, "People see 99% Return signs all over the casinos and think THAT'S A GOOD THING!!" It explains why people love going to Harrah's properties, which consistently provide the worst gambling returns. It explains diamond and seven-star nonsense, which would have been considered insulting 50 years ago. It explains a lot.

[Alan Mendelson]

It explains diamond and seven-star nonsense, which would have been considered insulting 50 years ago. It explains a lot.

Redietz, are you sure you're not really Rob Singer in disguise? Or maybe one of his multiple personalities?

What exactly do you consider "nonsense"?? That Diamonds and 7Stars get extra perks? Or that they have to play to get them? Or that they are members of players clubs which Rob says will doom you to addiction, bankruptcy or heaven knows what other evil fate?

[redietz]

The nonsense lies in the trade-off between comps and gambling percentages. We all know CET's vp payouts suck. Their blackjack sucks. You play craps, and they can't really muck with craps odds, so you are protected. I have to admit that, for craps players, CET may make sense. For everybody else, they're a horror. They have lousy comps for sports and race betting. They have inconsistent, idiocy-dependent ways of establishing limits for sports and race betting which really are Harrah's inventions.

The science/math deficiencies have to do with how people arrive at CET as a good deal. Now for you, a craps player, the comps offset the damages. For people playing blackjack, or video poker, or sports, or race -- the CET math is bad.

[Alan Mendelson]

redietz, but what you said has nothing to do with Diamonds or 7Stars -- it's like that for everybody.

Ironic as it sounds "Vegas" is not for gamblers anymore.

[redietz]

Diamond and 7Stars play more at games with terrible odds than their counterparts at other properties. They enter into a bad-math contract with CET wherein they get lots of (not-so-great) comped rooms and such, and the trade-off is they play high volumes of rotten-odds games.

The manipulation/grooming/addiction of the Diamond and 7Stars players creates a lower floor for gambling odds than would otherwise exist. This hurts people who actually know what they are doing.

[Alan Mendelson]

Diamond and 7Stars play more at games with terrible odds than their counterparts at other properties.

This is a ridiculous statement. I personally scored more than 960,000 tier points in 2013 playing only 8/5 Bonus and 8/5 Aces and Faces plus conservative craps betting with very low HE.

Frankly, it's a statement I would expect Rob Singer to make.

[Rob.Singer]

CET plays these higher tier "special" players like cheap fiddles. The execs continually degrade their rewards program, all we hear is complaints about how CET's doing this and reducing that along with constant whining about points accumulation, etc. etc. etc. So what happens? Absolutely nothing. These groomed addicts stay loyal to the abuse, because they just can't resist all those blinding "freebies". And the most cunning part of the CET deception program is how they get these constant losers to get all excited over the enormously successful year end GGWU, where balance sheets can be evened out by unopposed self-evaluation of all the wonderful "free stuff" that these played players stuff into their golden stockings. Jan. 1st....here we come!

[Alan Mendelson]

CET plays these higher tier "special" players like cheap fiddles. The execs continually degrade their rewards program, all we hear is complaints about how CET's doing this and reducing that along with constant whining about points accumulation, etc. etc. etc. So what happens? Absolutely nothing. These groomed addicts stay loyal to the abuse, because they just can't resist all those blinding "freebies". And the most cunning part of the CET deception program is how they get these constant losers to get all excited over the enormously successful year end GGWU, where balance sheets can be evened out by unopposed self-evaluation of all the wonderful "free stuff" that these played players stuff into their golden stockings. Jan. 1st....here we come!

Ya know Rob, you have become so predictable you are now a caricature of yourself. I didn't see anyone here saying they were happy about the downgrades and that they were playing more in spite of the downgrades. I'm certainly not running to Vegas to play reduced pay table video poker, or full pay machines that require $25 per tier point. When I want VP Rincon still has full pay machines with free play, cash back, tier points at $10 each, plus the comps I can use in Vegas including Great Gift Wrap Up points, plus comps that can be converted to free play.

But you have to unleash your usual Singerisms which come as no surprise, and add nothing to the discussion at hand.

You have become a bore.

[redietz]

In Las Vegas, CET has the worst games in terms of house edge. That would include blackjack, roulette, video poker, and comp rates for race and sports. We obviously do not know non-vp slot returns, but I doubt they outperform the other companies with slot percentages.

In other locations, CET features better returns than in Las Vegas. Video poker for CET is better in Reno and Tunica, for example. Since this is a Las Vegas forum, I was referring to Las Vegas.

Correction: For low to medium rollers, and even some high rollers, Wynn has worse sports comps than CET. Their race comps are better, however.

[Alan Mendelson]

In Las Vegas, CET has the worst games in terms of house edge. That would include blackjack, roulette, video poker, and comp rates for race and sports.

Not exactly true. I can't speak of all of the CET casinos but there are full pay 8/5 Bonus games even at the $1 level at Rio and Flamingo. At Caesars you will find 8/5 Bonus at $5, $10, $25 and $100 per coin which is right up Rob Singer's alley. The edge on those games is no worse than at any competing casino in Vegas.

Caesars still has 3/2 blackjack outside of their "Pussycat casino." I don't play the game but it wouldn't surprise me if 3/2 blackjack is at the Flamingo and Rio as well.
Planet Hollywood is loaded with full pay video poker machines according to my son who stayed there over New Year's.

Roulette? Im not a roulette player either but Caesars does have a single 0 game and I don't think the pays at Caesars' double-zero games are any worse than the pays at any other casino in Vegas.

I can't speak about comp rates because the reality is that comps for table game players vary dramatically -- unlike comp rates for machine players where actual bets can be recorded by a computer. Comp rates for table game players can vary based on what the floorman sees and what he enters into the system. I've played craps for four hours at Caesars and had zero play recorded.

So redietz/Rob be more careful with your CET bashing. Sure there are some lousy pay tables on lower denomination video poker machines -- but I doubt you professionals would be playing them. But if Rob wanted 8/5 Bonus at 25-cents I think he will find them at Flamingo and Planet Ho and maybe even the Rio.

[redietz]

My apologies. Rio just recently introduced the superior video poker -- concomitant with their problems with SARS or whatever the bug was. I'm simply pointing out a correlation, not a cause-and-effect. I'll take wagers on how long it lasts. Any takers? I'll say these paytables are gone by June 30.

The question isn't "Who has 3-2 blackjack?" That's really a silly question. The question is, "Who introduced and has 6/5 blackjack?" Basically, 6/5 makes the game unplayable. It's not as if 3-2 should be viewed as some rare creature -- it was always be the basic, standard game until CET decided it shouldn't be. Again, we have the issue of lowering the floor for gambling odds.

I give Caesars' Palace a pass on many things because it was a standalone property until recently and Harrah's/CET hasn't quite figured out how to ruin it yet. If you're looking for the best limits for race/sports among the Harrah's collective, CP would be the property. Planet Hollywood is not loaded with full pay machines. Check the machines. Of course, my definition of full pay may differ from Alan's. Somehow Alan believes machines that pay less than 100% are full pay. An excruciating manipulation of basic math is required to label a machine that pays less than the full amount with optimal play into a "full pay" machine, but if you say something often enough and put it on enough signage, people tend to accept it. I think Brave New World addressed that issue quite a long time ago.

[Alan Mendelson]

Of course, my definition of full pay may differ from Alan's. Somehow Alan believes machines that pay less than 100% are full pay.

Are you some kind of revisionist?

You are losing points with me, redietz. You used to come across as being knowledgeable. Now I wonder?

"Full pay" does not mean 100%+ or 100% payback and never has. "Full pay" is commonly used to refer to the best of the regular paytables for various games -- and it always has.

Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_poker which says, in part: "When modern video poker games first appeared, the highest-paying common variant of a particular game was called "Full-Pay". Game variants that returned a lower payback percentage were termed "Short-Pay". Though the term Full-Pay is still in use, today, there are many game variants that return more."

Now, some specifics: 9/6 Jacks or Better returning 99.54% is considered "full pay." 8/5 Bonus returning 99.17% is considered "full pay." These are accepted definitions. If you want to say they are not positive expectation machines or 100%+ machines you certainly can say that, but they are "full pay."

You can criticize these games for being less than positive, but please don't try to rewrite everything to fit your arguments. Let Rob do that.

I can't comment about your experiences with sports betting since I just don't bet on sports with the exception of when my college frat brothers and I went to the Belmont Stakes to bet on Canonero in 1971.

[a2a3dseddie]

What is really being discussed here? Is redietz accusing CET for the creation of 6/5 blackjack? Doesn't Rob prefer -EV VP machines anyways?

You'd never here me say that the CET properties in Las Vegas are the best, but their loyalty program may very well be if you consider that comps earned are transferrable to all their other casinos across the US and in Canada.

I have reached diamond status only a couple times, and enjoyed comps in CET hotels / casinos that I previously never set foot in before. Sure it's a "hook" that they have, but if you are going to frequent casinos regularly, you could do a lot worse than Total Rewards.

[Rob.Singer]

What is really being discussed here? Is redietz accusing CET for the creation of 6/5 blackjack? Doesn't Rob prefer -EV VP machines anyways?

You'd never here me say that the CET properties in Las Vegas are the best, but their loyalty program may very well be if you consider that comps earned are transferrable to all their other casinos across the US and in Canada.

I have reached diamond status only a couple times, and enjoyed comps in CET hotels / casinos that I previously never set foot in before. Sure it's a "hook" that they have, but if you are going to frequent casinos regularly, you could do a lot worse than Total Rewards.

If room comps is your end-all, no program offers a better deal for different parts of the country. But I think redietz is rightfully bringing up CET's overall poor gaming odds for their customers, and I'm degrading their stupid GGWU baloney that encourages players to play far more than they would or should. Why do you think Alan gets all excited when he continually brings up items about Caesar's and Rincon? Because he can't stop....he can't walk away from the machines when he knows the more he plays, the more GGWU points he'll get for their year-end "everybody gets even!" redemptionfest.

Players who are both strong and intelligent have to be able to see thru and understand all this. CET does a superb job neutralizing these patsies even in the face of a policy of "everybody knows". CET has no problem seeing and ignoring all of the complaints seen here, because they know what they do is more powerful. And Alan is the company's foremost enabler.

[Alan Mendelson]

Rob: you are really being ridiculous. I don't think anyone would play more than they would normally for the Great Gift Wrap Up in December in Las Vegas when there were so many chances that they would not make the event. You continue to harp on this allegation that the GGWU is some masterful magnet for getting Total Rewards members to play more than they should want to -- and you are just flat out wrong. Ironically, it was about two years ago that you told me that you didn't realize that your play at other Total Rewards casinos gave you points for the GGWU and you missed out on cashing them in. I sense a lot of sour grapes coming from you because you may finally be realizing that you missed out on a lot of Shell gas cards to fill up that RV of yours.

[Count Room]

I don't think anyone would play more than they would normally for the Great Gift Wrap Up in December in Las Vegas when there were so many chances that they would not make the event. You continue to harp on this allegation that the GGWU is some masterful magnet for getting Total Rewards members to play more than they should want to -- and you are just flat out wrong.

Alan: With some trepidation I am going to step into this and say if CET didn't believe the GGWU would help them to make more money overall from gamblers, why would they have it in the first place? There is no free lunch.

I realize the GGWU rewards loyalty from previous gambling, but the whole point of showing outward appreciation of a good customer in the first place is to hopefully keep him (or her) loyal.