A chilling story: big losses and suicide

[Alan Mendelson]

Could be, redietz. Actually there are lots of articles on the web about problems at the Luxor with their safety, railings, catwalks, walkways, and the deaths of two construction workers plus the woman who plunged (article above) and the death of the man who was drinking.

I wouldn't think that a legitimate news story such as a public incident would be covered up. But a suicide in a room, out of the view of the public, might indeed not make the papers or TV.

[Vegas_lover]

I was later told that the guy had lost a bundle and had been drinking.

Losing a bundle is relative. Your bundle may be my penny. What I'm trying to say, somebody who commits suicide has issues. Whenever it happens in Vegas, the casinos always seem to be blamed. It's the common combination of gambling losses and alcohol that caused the person to commit suicide. I don't buy that. A person who comes to Vegas, loses too much money, drinks too much alcohol and than jumps had serious personal issues before coming to Vegas. They were mentally unstable before the trip (most of the times) and their lives where already in shambles. Some might have actually planned to end their lives in Vegas, you know, one of those "I don't care about anything anymore trips". "I'm going to Vegas, get drunk, get a hooker, throw away my money and jump to end my miserable life".

Most people want to blame all those awful casinos. No casino would actually want to push a customer that far. Most of the times the jumper was the problem, not the casino.

[Count Room]

Some might have actually planned to end their lives in Vegas, you know, one of those "I don't care about anything anymore trips". "I'm going to Vegas, get drunk, get a hooker, throw away my money and jump to end my miserable life".

Are you sure you're not using elements from the 1995 movie Leaving Las Vegas with Nicholas Cage & Elisabeth Shue when you offer this description? Except for the jumping it's strikingly similar to the movie's plot.

[Vegas_lover]

Are you sure you're not using elements from the 1995 movie Leaving Las Vegas with Nicholas Cage & Elisabeth Shue when you offer this description? Except for the jumping it's strikingly similar to the movie's plot.

Do you know what motivates people to commit suicide? I for one can not understand why somebody would do something like that. I would never take that step, regarless of the amount of problems I might have. Do you know exactly why people in Vegas commit suicide? Somehow you never hear Vegas suicide stories where the jumper just won a bundle and was completely sober. So what I'm simply saying is this: as soon as somebody in Vegas commits suicide, it's because they lost money and were drunk. How about somebody who jumps in Chicago? It's always the individual's choice to make that jump, it's too easy to blame the casinos. People should take more responsibility for their own actions instead of blaming others for their misfortune. Otherwise we keep reading stories about people starting legal procedures againt electronics companies after they fried their cat in the microwave because the manual didn't say you couldn't use the microwave to dry your cat after a bath. My reference to "Leaving Las Vegas" was an example. So yes, I used that movie as a reference for motivation.

[Count Room]

Do you know what motivates people to commit suicide? I for one can not understand why somebody would do something like that. I would never take that step, regarless of the amount of problems I might have. Do you know exactly why people in Vegas commit suicide? Somehow you never hear Vegas suicide stories where the jumper just won a bundle and was completely sober. So what I'm simply saying is this: as soon as somebody in Vegas commits suicide, it's because they lost money and were drunk. How about somebody who jumps in Chicago? It's always the individual's choice to make that jump, it's too easy to blame the casinos. People should take more responsibility for their own actions instead of blaming others for their misfortune. .

We're crossing into super-complex and intellectually demanding areas of human psychology that are probably beyond my scope to discuss here. Gadzillions of books have already been written that touch upon these issues.

Where blaming the Vegas & gambling culture is concerned: I will only say that we would be very hard-pressed to find a thread discussing suicide in the "Garage Sales" subforum of Alan's Best Buys, wouldn't we?

[Rob.Singer]

"Suicide" in LV seems to have tickled VL's fancy somewhat more than every other subject! But if he checks the suicide rate in Macau, he'll find the Chinese jump at six times the rate. Don't those guys all win?

The more jumpers the better, as long as they splatter a safe distance away from anybody who appreciates the lives they've been blessed with. We don't want these oddballs driving the streets putting innocent lives at risk.

[redietz]

Our culture overestimates the influence of "personal responsibility" in almost every area. It overestimates the control people have of their own behavior. It underestimates the effects of context. It underestimates the responsibility of social scenarios in influencing human behavior.

Those aren't platitudes. Go grab a thousand professional journals in sociology, psychology, psychiatry, anthropology, neurosciences, behavioral science, and so on. The studies will run heavily (as in 80-90%) in the directions I've mentioned. Personal control of situations (and therefore personal responsibility, whatever that is) is vastly overestimated by people. Assignations of responsibility are skewed. Context determines behavior much, much more than people in this culture realize or are willing to concede.

People prefer to believe they have more control than they do. That's clear and it's striking.

[Count Room]

Our culture overestimates the influence of "personal responsibility" in almost every area. It overestimates the control people have of their own behavior. It underestimates the effects of context. It underestimates the responsibility of social scenarios in influencing human behavior.

Those aren't platitudes. Go grab a thousand professional journals in sociology, psychology, psychiatry, anthropology, neurosciences, behavioral science, and so on. The studies will run heavily (as in 80-90%) in the directions I've mentioned. Personal control of situations (and therefore personal responsibility, whatever that is) is vastly overestimated by people. Assignations of responsibility are skewed. Context determines behavior much, much more than people in this culture realize or are willing to concede.

People prefer to believe they have more control than they do. That's clear and it's striking.

Now the real cool question is whether setting win goals and sticking to them in VP can be applied to this. If you can have control over your VP play despite the ginormous amounts of marketing money casinos spend to keep the players undisciplined, what does it say about personal responsibility in this area?

Not really arguing with you, Red. Just more fun fuel for the frying pan.

[Rob.Singer]

That's just it count. Very very few people can have total control over their vp play. Alan seems responsible, but how many times has he exposed how his casinos own him over and over again? He doesn't appear to ever be able to leave at the optimal times, and it's all because he can't bear to leave the action, and because the ambience nearly overcomes him. He of course is not alone, because that's not the exception by a long shot. In fact, I don't know anyone besides myself who actually controls the casinos and by definition, the vp machines. But I would bet there are a few more somewhere.

[Dan Druff]

That's just it count. Very very few people can have total control over their vp play. Alan seems responsible, but how many times has he exposed how his casinos own him over and over again? He doesn't appear to ever be able to leave at the optimal times, and it's all because he can't bear to leave the action, and because the ambience nearly overcomes him. He of course is not alone, because that's not the exception by a long shot. In fact, I don't know anyone besides myself who actually controls the casinos and by definition, the vp machines. But I would bet there are a few more somewhere.

I don't know why you are obsessed with portraying Alan as a problem gambler, when he seems to be generally in control of himself, sets stop-loss levels, and only plays the best-odds machines with perfect strategy. Sure, he still will lose in the long run playing this way, but not that much.

Anyway, I am fully in control when I play VP.

- I always play the minimum to reach the maximum tier rewards for the day, and nothing more

- I never play a bit more than the freeplay I'm given, if I'm there to do just freeplay

- I take advantage of every decent/good promotion offered to me, and combine them whenever possible

- I only play the highest-paying VP machines and use perfect strategy

- I quit playing for the year when I have hit the required amount for Seven Stars for the next year


With that said, I still may not renew Seven Stars this year. I am considering utilizing that 99.96% machine at the Rio to do so, but it will require $2.5 million in coin-in, and I'm not sure I want to deal with that variance. Basically my expected loss will be $1000, which would totally be worth renewing Seven Stars, but the variance could be a killer.

[Rob.Singer]

I've said I believe Alan is a problem gambler several times, but that's not what I was saying here. The discussion was about how slot clubs control players, and they most certainly do.

Your statement that Alan will lose playing less than 100% games is completely untrue. He COULD lose, but that's only if he is unlucky and plays in faulty ways. And that's the main reason people lose--they play according to how the casinos want and expect them to. For example, ap's run after every promo they can whenever something pops up at over 100%. That's exactly what the casinos expect and want. Advantage: casinos. Every time.

[Alan Mendelson]

Anyone who does not kiss Rob's ass has a problem.