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Thread: Are non-smoking gamblers penalized in casinos?

  1. #1
    I was just told that Harrah's Rincon Casino in northern San Diego County has a non-smoking section. I am sure a lot of gamblers will appreciate that because not all gamblers smoke -- even though a lot of gamblers are smokers.

    I am bringing attention to the non-smoking area of Rincon (now operated by Caesars since Harrah's changed its name to Caesars) because of the video poker games offered in the non-smoking area.

    It seems that the video poker games in the non-smoking area have pay tables which are not as "good" or "player friendly" as the pay tables in other parts of the casino where smoking is allowed. This tells me that if you want to get away from the smoke you have to play a game where it is harder to win or to come out ahead, and that you have to give the casino a better chance at getting your money if you want to be healthy.

    I know some other casinos also offer non-smoking areas and even non-smoking rooms. In Vegas, I know that the Bellagio even has some non-smoking table games.

    Do you know of non-smoking areas in casinos? And, is the gaming in the non-smoking areas equal to the gaming in the smoking areas?

  2. #2
    The MGM Grand casino in Detroit does the same thing: there is a small no smoking area and it has the worst VP pay tables on the entire floor. Rest assured that the regular slots in this area are also the lowest paying slots in the inventory.

  3. #3
    It's been about a year since I brought up the question about non smokers being "penalized" with poor pay tables on video poker. About a week ago I checked some of the pay tables at Rincon and the non smoking pay tables were still weak. But with the downgrading of some of the other pay tables in the casino, the non smoking pay tables weren't as bad as they were a year ago.

    I'm still curious why this has not become an issue. I haven't seen any comment about it anywhere else. Has it been discussed on any other message boards or forums?

    In the meantime, I just want to point out that there is no smoking in all of the California card rooms and commercial casinos -- and only the Indian casinos allow smoking. Even with the no smoking rule Commerce Casino is still the biggest poker casino in the world. And players know that when they want to smoke they can get up out of their seats and go outdoors.

    However, the Bicycle Casino (another card room with "California games") does have a gaming area under a tent which technically is outdoors and smoking is allowed there.

  4. #4
    What gets me is whenever you fan the smoke away from your face they get insulted and tell me to move if I don't like it. I've only had one say oh I'm sorry and move the ash tray.

  5. #5
    First, the reason a lot of gamblers smoke is because the majority of them are low-lifes, and what do low-lifes do? On the LV Strip it's a bit different. The majority at all the swanky hotels are foreigners, and what do foreigners do?

    The casino I've been to over the years that has a significant video poker non-smoking area is that dump Sam's Town. The games in it are no different than the rest of the casino, by and large. However, I've gotten into more than a few beefs with people who light up in there anyways, and when I've called security over they would never enforce the rules. It was always "oh, it's no big deal--it's just smoke, and they'll probably be gone soon anyway". So after that I'd ALWAYS first insult the smoker with "they're probably hoping you won't be around to cause trouble very long anyway, seeing that you'll most likely die a slow, excruciating, humiliating death as you wither away in front of your wailing family; and then I'd blast the security guard, who would threaten to have ME removed....until a check was run to see how big a player I was there and how much I've won from them. Then a suit would appear & appease--and get rid of the smoker.

    The day will come when all casinos will be 100% non-smoking. I hope I'm around to see that day.

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    First, the reason a lot of gamblers smoke is because the majority of them are low-lifes, and what do low-lifes do? On the LV Strip it's a bit different. The majority at all the swanky hotels are foreigners, and what do foreigners do?

    The casino I've been to over the years that has a significant video poker non-smoking area is that dump Sam's Town. The games in it are no different than the rest of the casino, by and large. However, I've gotten into more than a few beefs with people who light up in there anyways, and when I've called security over they would never enforce the rules. It was always "oh, it's no big deal--it's just smoke, and they'll probably be gone soon anyway". So after that I'd ALWAYS first insult the smoker with "they're probably hoping you won't be around to cause trouble very long anyway, seeing that you'll most likely die a slow, excruciating, humiliating death as you wither away in front of your wailing family; and then I'd blast the security guard, who would threaten to have ME removed....until a check was run to see how big a player I was there and how much I've won from them. Then a suit would appear & appease--and get rid of the smoker.

    The day will come when all casinos will be 100% non-smoking. I hope I'm around to see that day.
    LOL. You're such a "big winner" that casinos let you stay. According to you, Bob Dancer is allowed in casinos because he's a loser. Can't have it both ways, Rob.

    So you hang out with the commoners in the non-smoking room, eh? I would think that with your legendary status as a player's player, you'd be in the high limit slot area. Naturally, should a smoker light up in your vicinity, all you would need to do is tell them who you are and you'd have your own personal non-smoking perimeter.

  7. #7
    You're so misled and uninformed Vic. I played a lot of 25c thru $5 RTT and ARTT at ST and killed them--especially on the $5 games when playing SPS in the non-smoking area. Their high limit room is pathetic and only addicts who win on lower levels go in there--although I did play their $10 & $25 machine occasionally....and did very well.

    You also missed the part where I stopped using my slot club card when playing SPS years before. If you learn to stop using selective reading when you work up an envious sweat, you'll do far better.

  8. #8
    This may be a fertile area for research, as I do not recall seeing a discussion of vp or slot inventory in non-smoking versus smoking areas anywhere else. If the inventories in non-smoking areas are consistently inferior, what does that say about what the casinos are trying to accomplish?

    Another angle to this -- I swear, presumably to save costs, some casinos have dialed back their air recycling to the extent it is noticeable. I really think the Rio air is significantly degraded from 10 years ago -- and I have to think it has nothing to do with demographic changes or people smoking more, and everything to do with running air purifying equipment less. Since, however, the Rio is the perfect example of a once-high-end place that now caters to the bargain crowd, I suppose it is possible that the current lower-end customers smoke more. But looking around, I do not think that's the case. Since Rio's in mega-save-money mode, I think the "being cheap with the purifying" hypothesis is more likely.

    Any thoughts, folks?

  9. #9
    redietz, I would also like to see some research on vp games in non smoking areas. I noticed at Harrah's Rincon in San Diego that the VP tables in the non smoking areas were poor pay tables. Pechanga also has a non smoking area but to be honest I didn't check the VP games there.

    In Vegas I've never seen a non smoking area for slots, though at Bellagio I have played at a non smoking craps table where the dealers who require a non smoking environment are assigned. However, even at a non smoking craps table its hard to avoid the smoke.

    I think the best Vegas casino for "air" is Mandalay Bay with its high ceiling and relatively new air system. However, that was about three years ago which was the last time I was at Mandalay Bay. Caesars, has one of the worst air qualities in Vegas which I would blame on the low ceilings. Fortunately the number of smokers at Caesars seems to be less than at other casinos.

    Rincon has its smokers but because it is a smaller casino even the smoking areas are comparatively better than at Caesars in LV. Pechanga has the most smokers in any of the Southern Cal casinos Ive been in. Morongo is second for "smoke."

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    You're so misled and uninformed Vic. I played a lot of 25c thru $5 RTT and ARTT at ST and killed them--especially on the $5 games when playing SPS in the non-smoking area. Their high limit room is pathetic and only addicts who win on lower levels go in there--although I did play their $10 & $25 machine occasionally....and did very well.

    You also missed the part where I stopped using my slot club card when playing SPS years before. If you learn to stop using selective reading when you work up an envious sweat, you'll do far better.
    Just curious. Why do you not use your card? Is there any other reason besides their tracking your play? Thanks

  11. #11
    Because I was banned from playing vp at Harrahs & Bellagio--as I now am at the Silverton surprisingly not because of the AMOUNT I've won, which isn't large at all comparatively, but because I never lose there. I was gambling for a living, and the money was far more important to me than the free stuff. Rather than take a chance at being banned everywhere I played SPS and everywhere period, I opted for not using a slot card when I played the strategy that frequently took me to the $10 & $25 machines and sometimes to the $100 games. That stuff gets their attention real fast--especially if you win consistently.

    On a side note, we're now in an RV park in Carson City for a week before heading up to the Oregon coast next. I can just smell the air getting cleaner as we leave the smoke of southern Nevada in the dust! I agree with redietz that the Rio caters to the bargain-seeking crowd with their belt-tightening etc., having just stayed there last week.

  12. #12
    I know that Bellagio has facial recognition software -- in fact, they made a big deal about announcing it when the casino first opened. With it, they know who is not only in the casino, but they can "read" the faces of people arriving at the casino while in their cars in the driveways. I didn't make that up -- it's what they said. So it doesn't matter if you have a card or not. Besides, "problem players" can be identified by security and I am sure "problem players" don't present their cards when they gamble at machines or at table games.

    So playing without a card is not going to keep you under the radar.

    But I do have to question why a casino would block a video poker player who wins? And the reason is this: There is a limit to how much a winning video poker player can win, when you think about it, unless you are rigging the machine to give "too many royals."

    The only reason why I think a casino would bar a winning video poker player is that they cause some other problem-- such as they are abusive to staff or players, get drunk, damage machines, throw ashtrays, knock over a cocktail waitress' tray of drinks.

    In other words, I think a casino would accept someone winning at video poker as a normal course of doing business and a normal event. In fact, I think a casino would do everything it could to get a winning player to keep coming back so the casino would have a chance to get its money back.

    In other words, I think the casino would look at a winning video poker player as someone who got lucky -- just like someone who hits jackpots on high limit slot machines.

    Now, when a casino suspects the "winner" is counting cards, or cheating a machine, or is in cahoots with a dealer, or isn't following the rules at craps about throwing dice, or is betting late at roulette -- then the casino has reason to bar a player.

    But to bar a winning video poker player? Why? Even if the player wins consistently, how much damage can a legally winning video poker player do to a casino? A hundred thousand dollars profit a year is not going to kill a casino.

    I think a casino might cut back on comps, and restrict entries into certain promotions because it wants to "share the wealth" with its other players, but to outright bar a video poker player just for winning? Nah. Makes no sense to me.

  13. #13
    I don't agree with your first point. I was not "blacklisted" which is what you're referring to. I was banned from playing video poker there. Same with Harrahs, and in both cases the offers were stopped. I was always RFB at Bellagio. Besides, I published the Bellagio letter in GT. I started going into Bellagio again after Steve Wynn sold it and when I hit a royal in the high limit room without a card, they just took my info, issued the W2G, asked if I wanted to sign up for a card, and I was on my way without issue.

    Your next statement about how playing without a card is not going to keep you under the radar is false. If you aren't banned or a "problem player" then you're of no interest outside of being a customer. Facial recognition software does nothing if you're not on any list. A vp player who gets W2G's on negative EV games is not on any list.

    Your problem with banning winning vp players is likely due to a shortage of business knowledge in the casino--and indeed, in all profit-generating entities in general. In my days with GT when I constantly hounded casino management all over the state, trying to sort thru the stories I read from the gurus and others with a name, I found one overriding rule that the casinos obviously still live by: IF THEY CAN'T FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE A PROFIT OFF OF ANY PLAYER, THAT PLAYER WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO PLAY THERE AGAIN. And apparently, the amount doesn't matter. Restricting me or anyone else from comps or points won't stop the money from coming out of the machines, and nothing else matters. It has nothing to do with cheating or whatever you mentioned. It's business 101 and nothing else. You've recently seen where chronic extreme grocery store couponers get banned from store chains. Same type of thing.

  14. #14
    Rob, your post above is filled with contradictions, or at least I'm not sure what point you are making.

    In the first paragraph: first you say you were banned, then you said you hit a royal there. Well, were you banned or not? If you were banned that means you couldn't play there, they notified you that you would be trespassed and they could have had you arrested. There are cases here in California where players have been denied jackpots at casinos because they were banned -- this has happened at least twice at Commerce casino that I know of. Yet, you were banned and they paid the royal? Was this the $100,000 royal?

    I don't understand your point in the second paragraph. Bellagio actually installed the facial recognition software so they could keep track of their high rollers and if they can do that they certainly can keep track of problem gamblers. Are you saying that if you don't show your card they won't know who you are? And then you say that a winning player on negative expectation games is not on any lists -- but you play negative games as part of your SPS and you've been banned? I don't understand your point??

    And regarding paragraph three: casinos don't have to make a profit off of all their players. Casinos need some winners to attract the mass of players who will lose. If everyone lost, no one would play. Casinos need the Bob Dancers and Rob Singers of the world to attract all of the others who lose. You, Rob, and Bob, could be considered to be the "loss leaders" of the casino. Why do you think they let Dancer hold classes in the casino?? Because Dancer is creating winners?? LOL

    And again my point is this: a video poker player wins how much in a year? You said a million dollars over ten years. Dancer said at a lecture I attended that he won a quarter million a year. Now, where do your wins figure into the overall balance sheet of the video poker department? And the key question: how much of that was won at one single casino? Rob, did you win all one million dollars from one casino? If you won a million dollars from ten casinos over ten years you wouldn't even show up as a blip.

  15. #15
    I suspect some of Rob's being "banned" had to do with his face accompanying his GT articles for along time. Any manager who was new, or insecure, or just psycho risk-averse, might have decided against Rob playing on a particular property if Rob showed any signs of winning. Not all floor managers have math degrees, and some are just neurotic and scared accountants. Other properties were probably fine with Rob's action. But I'm just speculating....

  16. #16
    UPDATE: just left Ricon. Went there this morning for my Free Play and when I checked the NO SMOKING area I found the pay tables were IMPROVED on several games. There is now 8/5 Bonus (it was 6/5) and 8/5 Aces and Faces. DDB is 8/6 which is pretty much what you see in the smoking areas now.

    Not the only change: they have new ticket redemption / ATMs which work without a hitch.

    On my way to Pechanga to check their No Smoking VP.

  17. #17
    Pechanga has a limited number of VP machines in its non smoking area but it does have 9/6 Jacks but 7/5 Bonus. One thing Pechanga does right is that the non smoking area is right off the main entrance so you don't have to walk through the casino to get to it. At Rincon the smoke free area is in the center of the casino and you have to walk through the smoking areas to reach it.

  18. #18
    Rob, maybe you were banned for, in your words, "constantly hounded management". If you're as genial in person as you are on the interwebs, I can't blame them.

  19. #19
    Thanks for checking the smoking/non-smoking setups, Alan. This is something I'll take note of from now on -- casino design and intentions regarding this topic are really interesting. I've been oblivious to all but the really bad breathing areas -- Palace Station in LV may get my choke-arama award.

  20. #20
    Are there any casinos in LV with dedicated non smoking sections?

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