"I Am a Card Counter"

[dannyj]

Where I've worked, shooters who looked the part were stopped, not due to a fear of the casino losing money, but out of respect for those at the table who knew what they were doing.

nearthetop, I am still trying to understand what you mean.
Shooters who set the dice and or have a controlled toss were stopped not because the casino was losing, but out of respect for the others at the table?

Most people bet with the shooter (pass line, place bets) I don't see how taking a few seconds setting and being deliberate with your aim and toss is going to upset anyone especially if the numbers are hitting. So, how are these shooters "stopped" as you say? Are they told not to set?, to just pick up the dice as delivered and throw?, are they asked to leave?

Also, you talk about "spotting" influencers and how they try not to be recognized by how they aim? When I shoot I take about 2 seconds to set and then about another 4-5 seconds to aim and deliver the dice. I am not trying to hide the fact that I'm a controlled shooter. I have never known anyone who is trying not to be recognized by how they aim. It doesn't take a genius from the eye in the sky to spot people who are "trying" to influence the dice. The house either allows setting or it doesn't. In fact I have never played at a casino that didn't allow me to set the dice.

[nearthetop]

nearthetop, I am still trying to understand what you mean.
Shooters who set the dice and or have a controlled toss were stopped not because the casino was losing, but out of respect for the others at the table?

Most people bet with the shooter (pass line, place bets) I don't see how taking a few seconds setting and being deliberate with your aim and toss is going to upset anyone especially if the numbers are hitting. So, how are these shooters "stopped" as you say? Are they told not to set?, to just pick up the dice as delivered and throw?, are they asked to leave?

Also, you talk about "spotting" influencers and how they try not to be recognized by how they aim? When I shoot I take about 2 seconds to set and then about another 4-5 seconds to aim and deliver the dice. I am not trying to hide the fact that I'm a controlled shooter. I have never known anyone who is trying not to be recognized by how they aim. It doesn't take a genius from the eye in the sky to spot people who are "trying" to influence the dice. The house either allows setting or it doesn't. In fact I have never played at a casino that didn't allow me to set the dice.

I'll give this my best shot. "Out of respect for others at the table" means since this dice influencing hocus pocus was given a life, serious players really do get disgruntled by players who showboat the trait. Give other players credit, they see how these people prepare, shoot, aim, and pattern-bet, and all the while it makes no difference at all as to the outcome of the effort. I've heard about many many complaints from players to the pits about this type of behavior.

These people, at responsible casinos, are asked to leave the table and not play any more craps in said casino. Sometimes they are given a warning but it rarely makes any difference.

I'm interviewing with several major casinos right now in middle mgmt. positions, and both asked my opinion about card counters, advantage players, and on the dice setting issue among other subjects. That shows me responsible management. I hope one of them hires me.

[Rob.Singer]

I don't play craps, but it's just simple common sense that no human being or even a programmed robot, can defeat those cones at a craps table.Wong came up with this just so he could make money selling it. People like Frank came on board because that's what struggling gamblers do--sell & teach strategies to other players to make gambling money. The gaming industry is littered with these people. And it's exactly why I never put my self-developed strategies in my books and haver never charged anyone who asked to be trained. Again, losing players need income from their schemes; winning players make their money successfully doing what they say they do. There is nothing hard or mysterious about any of this, and there's no need to guess why the mathematicians and brainiacs on the Wizard's forum have made a laughing stock out of dice magic.

[Alan Mendelson]

Here's what I've always said about dice setting and influencing: if craps is random because the dice must hit the back wall after flying through the air and hitting the table (a legal throw according to the NGC) then attempts at DI and DC hurt no one and everyone should be allowed to try.

[dannyj]

I'll give this my best shot. "Out of respect for others at the table" means since this dice influencing hocus pocus was given a life, serious players really do get disgruntled by players who showboat the trait. Give other players credit, they see how these people prepare, shoot, aim, and pattern-bet, and all the while it makes no difference at all as to the outcome of the effort. I've heard about many many complaints from players to the pits about this type of behavior.

These people, at responsible casinos, are asked to leave the table and not play any more craps in said casino. Sometimes they are given a warning but it rarely makes any difference.

I'm interviewing with several major casinos right now in middle mgmt. positions, and both asked my opinion about card counters, advantage players, and on the dice setting issue among other subjects. That shows me responsible management. I hope one of them hires me.

So at the responsible casino where you used to work that is how they stopped dice influencers...they were asked to leave, but not because the house was losing, rather from complaints by other players who would benefit from a good roll. Wow...

[regnis]

Just spent the weekend at a horse tournament. One of the better players there and a long time friend of mine was a pit boss in the dice pit. He is still rolling on the floor after I showed him this nonsense. No casino would ban "controlled shooters" unless they were killing the casino. In fact, they welcome the hapless controlled shooter wannabees who can't actually execute the shot.

He and I have had long discussions about actions that were discussed by the casino relating to my play. Basically, they figured I was just lucky and it would even out. They did not believe in dice control.

A couple years after he left the casino, I was banned there.

[FrankScoblete]

It is very simple to prove or disprove someone can have control over the dice. Again there are two methods, the SRR and Smart Craps. I discussed what these are in past threads.

[Alan Mendelson]

Sorry, Frank. I have to disagree with you about proving dice influencing or dice control.

I think the only way to prove any control or influence over the dice would be with a slow motion video of the dice toss, hit and roll. The video would have to show limited rotation. End results of the dice on the table prove nothing.

Any end results can be the result of random luck. If you think you really are influencing or controlling the dice then that influence or control would show in a slow motion video.

[dannyj]

I don't play craps, but it's just simple common sense that no human being or even a programmed robot, can defeat those cones at a craps table.Wong came up with this just so he could make money selling it. People like Frank came on board because that's what struggling gamblers do--sell & teach strategies to other players to make gambling money. The gaming industry is littered with these people. And it's exactly why I never put my self-developed strategies in my books and haver never charged anyone who asked to be trained. Again, losing players need income from their schemes; winning players make their money successfully doing what they say they do. There is nothing hard or mysterious about any of this, and there's no need to guess why the mathematicians and brainiacs on the Wizard's forum have made a laughing stock out of dice magic.

Welcome back Rob. What's shakin? How are the machines treating you?

[nearthetop]

So at the responsible casino where you used to work that is how they stopped dice influencers...they were asked to leave, but not because the house was losing, rather from complaints by other players who would benefit from a good roll. Wow...

Not exactly, but to me this issue is a moot point since I'm out of the CET hold where I learned their way, and just this morning I was offered a position at GSR in Reno, which I accepted . They have a very different approach to the dice issue which I can't discuss, but you would probably agree with it much more.

[dannyj]

nearthetop,

Congrats on the new gig.

[Alan Mendelson]

Best of luck at the new job.

[FrankScoblete]

Alan we did slow motion shots. I write about that in Cutting Edge Craps.

Rob Singer, I taught Wong.

[FrankScoblete]

As an aside: How did this thread become about craps?

[Count Room]

Here's what I've always said about dice setting and influencing: if craps is random because the dice must hit the back wall after flying through the air and hitting the table (a legal throw according to the NGC) then attempts at DI and DC hurt no one and everyone should be allowed to try.

This makes sense, Alan. In fact, I should point out that Rob had an old VP Truth article saying that it can't hurt to switch machines often when playing VP.

Both DC/DI and switching VP machines may or may not be fool's errands (debatable), but doing those actions are not inherently harmful over the long term (might as well try!).

[nearthetop]

Thank you all!

[Rob.Singer]

Welcome back Rob. What's shakin? How are the machines treating you?

Haven't played much but I've lost $2600 since my last jackpot picture. We've been travelling N. Calif. but are back now and there's a machine I have my eye on....I was thinking of changing my camera's date to Christmas 2000 for the next set of big winners just to get Dan & Spock to not feel so unneeded, irrelevant, & incompetent

[Alan Mendelson]

This makes sense, Alan. In fact, I should point out that Rob had an old VP Truth article saying that it can't hurt to switch machines often when playing VP.

Both DC/DI and switching VP machines may or may not be fool's errands (debatable), but doing those actions are not inherently harmful over the long term (might as well try!).

If you believe that all VP machines are random and each hand is random then yes, switching machines does not harm. But if if you thing machines run hot and cold, or that a big winner is due after a cold streak, or that the machine will cool off after a big jackpot, then you might want to have a different idea about this.

[Rob.Singer]

If you believe that all VP machines are random and each hand is random then yes, switching machines does not harm. But if if you thing machines run hot and cold, or that a big winner is due after a cold streak, or that the machine will cool off after a big jackpot, then you might want to have a different idea about this.

If you think you're in a cold streak on a particular machine, then it absolutely can't be harmful to change machines. To think otherwise would mean something is "due" to the player on that machine.

[ke6cdh]

Frank's book is a good read. Thank you Frank for the copy. It was so intertesting that I read it the day I received it in one sitting. I find it interesting how some people who are ignorant (ignorant of what book is about because they have not read the book; not ignorant as in an "ignorant person") can comment on the book. To me the book seemed more like an auto-biography of a card counter than a book by someone trying to sell a worthless system that his distracters accuse him of. I'm not going hurry out to a casino to try out a card counting system from the book. Indeed after actualy reading the book I feel rather discouraged about trying out card counting. Especaily at the hourseshoe.