Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 23

Thread: Why is the W2G for the Craps Fire Bet different from a Slot Machine pay?

  1. #1
    Below is a photo of the layout of a card craps table at Harrah's Rincon in San Diego. Those round markers (discs) in the center of the point boxes show that all six passes were made for the maximum Fire Bet payoff of 1,000 for every $1 bet. I had $5 on the Fire Bet at this table and so did five other players and each of us received $5,000 which actually was $4,995 plus the return of our original $5 wager.

    We each received a W2G for this bet -- and it's the only time a W2G is issued at a craps game. Even if you bet $1,000 on the hard-6 and it hits paying $10,000 (actually $9,000 plus your original bet) there is no W2G.

    As all slot and video poker players know, a pay of $1200 or more generates a W2G.

    But what I'd like to know is why is the W2G from the Fire Bet for $4,995 and not for $5,000 but if you bet $5 at video poker and hit a royal for $4,000 the W2G is for $4,000 and not $3,995 ??

    To put it another way: why is the original bet included in the payoff of the W2G for video poker and also slot machines, but it is not included in the W2G for the Fire Bet at craps?
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  2. #2
    Alan,
    Congrats on the 6 point fire bet. Is it because the odds on the 6 point fire bet are actually 1000 "for" 1 instead of 1000 "to" 1, making the actual pay off $4995 (999x5) ? I didn't know the fire bet generated a w2g as I have not hit one at the $5 level yet. Congrats again.

  3. #3
    dannyj I'm not sure if its the wording but the issue is when I bet $5 on video poker and hit a royal for $4,000 why am I getting a W2G for $4,000 and not for $3,995 ?? Why isn't my original bet amount in video poker deducted from the payoff as it was with the fire bet in craps?

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    dannyj I'm not sure if its the wording but the issue is when I bet $5 on video poker and hit a royal for $4,000 why am I getting a W2G for $4,000 and not for $3,995 ?? Why isn't my original bet amount in video poker deducted from the payoff as it was with the fire bet in craps?
    Alan: I used to play the thoroughbred horse races when I was younger and the minimum cutoff for a W2G was 300-to-1 on any wager. In the case of the dollar royal it's considered an 800-for-1 wager (is the same as 799-to-1 only it includes your original bet).

  5. #5
    Yesterday we went to our local casino here in so. Oregon. They have one craps table and have only just added the fire bet about a month ago. Not long before I arrived I heard that one of the regulars just hit a 5 point fire for $1250. I asked if that was taxed and the girl sitting box said no and that she thought (wasnt sure ?) that it had to be 300 times the wager.

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by dannyj View Post
    Yesterday we went to our local casino here in so. Oregon. They have one craps table and have only just added the fire bet about a month ago. Not long before I arrived I heard that one of the regulars just hit a 5 point fire for $1250. I asked if that was taxed and the girl sitting box said no and that she thought (wasnt sure ?) that it had to be 300 times the wager.
    Except for the stories Alan has shared I am not familiar with the Fire Bet as it has been a long time since I played craps (before the advent of the Fire Bet).

    I assume the wager was $5? If so it's still under the W2G cutoff since $1250 is only 250-1 odds.

  7. #7
    Thats correct the wager was $5. Before Alan posted his pic I had never thought about a single craps bet being taxed. Is there a minimum w2g dollar amount on these bets? In other words, would a $1 six point winner be taxed due to 1000 x the wager but under the $1200 threshold or would the taxation start on $2 and higher wagers?

  8. #8
    I've been paid $2500 for a $10 fire bet that hit five numbers and did not receive a W2G. I have received multiple $1250 payoffs for a $5 fire bet on five numbers and never received a W2G. Only W2G's Ive seen were for $5 or higher bets on all six numbers which paid 1,000 times.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by dannyj View Post
    Thats correct the wager was $5. Before Alan posted his pic I had never thought about a single craps bet being taxed. Is there a minimum w2g dollar amount on these bets? In other words, would a $1 six point winner be taxed due to 1000 x the wager but under the $1200 threshold or would the taxation start on $2 and higher wagers?
    Dannyj: As far as I know (and I may be inaccurate somewhere), for all casino table games and pari-mutuel wagers (horse racing, Jai-Alai) both of these conditions must be met for a W2G:

    a) Minimum payout of $600
    b) Win must be at least 300-1 odds

    This is a relic of days long past when making $2 bets at the horse races was a main form of entertainment in America (note that $2 times 300 = $600?)

    The $1,200 minimum for a W2G at all electronic games regardless of odds still stands, AFAIK.

    Here are a couple of scenarios to help clarify the table games rules:

    a) Alan investigates the consumer habits of the Vegas homeless population and he stops at a seedy off-strip casino to place a $1 Fire Bet. He hits all six points for $1,000 (1,000-1 odds). Both conditions are met. Alan collects a dog-eared W2G.

    b) Alan finishes a lavish dinner interview with Steve Wynn and he goes downstairs to make a $1,000 Fire Bet. Alas, only five numbers hit for $250,000 (250-1 odds). Since only one condition is met there is no W2G, only a big smile, stacks of $5,000 chips, and warm tales to tell friends & family.

  10. #10
    Unfortunately, with scenario "b" above... the maximum fire bet in Vegas is $10. HOWEVER a couple of years ago there were some high rollers at a reserved table at Caesars and they raised the fire bet just for them to either $25 or $100. They were making minimum $500 bets.

    I would love to play at a $100 Fire Bet table, even if I could only afford a passline bet of $500 because that's all you need... just a passline bet.

    In fact, all you need to do is make one passline bet and if it wins, your fire bet stays up even if you make no additional bets.

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Unfortunately, with scenario "b" above... the maximum fire bet in Vegas is $10. HOWEVER a couple of years ago there were some high rollers at a reserved table at Caesars and they raised the fire bet just for them to either $25 or $100. They were making minimum $500 bets.

    I would love to play at a $100 Fire Bet table, even if I could only afford a passline bet of $500 because that's all you need... just a passline bet.

    In fact, all you need to do is make one passline bet and if it wins, your fire bet stays up even if you make no additional bets.
    Yeah I was just having fun, Alan. All in good spirits. Would have been a hell of a news story parlaying $1 downtown into $250K at the Wynn through two Fire Bets, LOL.

  12. #12
    There's no difference between 800 "to" 1 and 800 "for" 1. Who comes up with this stuff?

    There is zero requirement for any US casino to issue a W2G on any table games whatsoever. Period. If you received one then the casino should be reported. Read the Nevada regs on this and you'll understand.

  13. #13
    Rob, it's the IRS that requires a W2G... not the NGC.

    But back to the original question:

    Why when you bet $5 and hit a royal flush for $4,000 do you get a W2G for $4,000. But if you bet $4 on the fire bet and get all 6 numbers, the W2G will be for $3,996. And if you bet $5 on the fire bet, the W2G will be for $3,995.

    To put it another way: why is the "base bet" excluded from the fire bet W2G amount but the base bet on a video poker game (or any slot) is not excluded?

    And if you can exclude the fire bet base bet in craps, why not also exclude the base bet in video poker or slots?

    Also...

    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    There's no difference between 800 "to" 1 and 800 "for" 1. Who comes up with this stuff?
    In 800 to 1, the payment is 800 coins.
    In 800 for 1, the payment is 799 coins.

  14. #14
    First, 800 for 1 means a return of 800 for every 1 unit bet--not a return of 799. 800 TO one refers to the approximate posted mathematical odds of the bet when a bet is won. In both cases, the player receives 800 units on a win--again, not 799. For instance, the vp royal payout is 800 FOR every 1 unit bet; the pay off odds just also happen to be 800 TO 1. What a coincidence. You said the fire bet pays 1000:1. That means for every unit bet you'll receive 1000 units. Now just think--if the pay table says you get 4000 units for a royal flush, the W2G is rightfully for the gross win, not the net (3995). So if the gross win for a $5 bet in craps is $5000, then that's exactly what the W2G must be issued for. It's just like when you do your taxes. You have to input your GROSS winnings as income--not net. So either the true pay table for the fire bet is 999....or some genius screwed this up somewhere.

    W2G issuance requirements are spelled out very clearly in the Gaming Regs, which are simply copied from IRS policy. I've seen both probably 10 years ago. So unless there's been a major overhaul in IRS code because of this "fire bet" that seems very unlikely that no one knows about, W2G's have no business being issued at tables. The only plausible explanation might have something to do with the 300:1 rule, but I expect this is something not understood or even explained clearly enough to every casino employee across the industry.
    Last edited by Rob.Singer; 04-23-2014 at 07:18 AM.

  15. #15
    I remember a few years ago in vegas (dont remember which casino) they had on their craps layout 10 "for" 1 in regards to the hard 6 and 8 payouts. Now, one got paid the standard 9 times odds with the winning bet staying up, so 10 for 1 did mean 9 to 1.

  16. #16
    Everyone is making this too hard. 800 to 1 pays 801. You get 800 and the 1 stays up (you can take it down and therefore have 801). 800 for 1 means you get 800 total. Some craps tables fool players on bets like the 12 or aces where they pay 30 for 1 rather than 30 to 1.

    The hard 6 or 8 pays 9 to 1. You get 9 for your dollar but the 1 stays up (thus 10 total). If it paid 9 for 1 you would only get paid 8 because 1 stays up.

    The hard 4 or 10 pays 7 to 1 or 8 for 1.

    All fire bets that I have seen pay "for 1", not "to 1". That doesn't mean that your casinos are the same, but check the pay table as it will clearly say either for or to.

    In horse racing, you pay tax on a two dollar bet that pays $602, because the tax is at 300 to 1 or greater. I have had winners of 605 where I had to get a W-2, but I have also had winners of 599 or 600 and not received a W-2.


    In video poker, if a full house pays 40, that is the gross win and your actual payoff is 8 for 1 or 7 to 1. VP pays "for 1", not "to 1" so as to make the payoffs look higher.

  17. #17
    In horse racing, all odds are "to 1".

    If you bet two dollars on a 3 to 1 shot, you get paid eight dollars. You win 3 for every 1 bet plus you get your bet back.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by dannyj View Post
    Alan,
    Congrats on the 6 point fire bet. Is it because the odds on the 6 point fire bet are actually 1000 "for" 1 instead of 1000 "to" 1, making the actual pay off $4995 (999x5) ? .
    I stand by my original comment to Alan.

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by regnis View Post
    Everyone is making this too hard. 800 to 1 pays 801. You get 800 and the 1 stays up (you can take it down and therefore have 801). 800 for 1 means you get 800 total. Some craps tables fool players on bets like the 12 or aces where they pay 30 for 1 rather than 30 to 1.

    The hard 6 or 8 pays 9 to 1. You get 9 for your dollar but the 1 stays up (thus 10 total). If it paid 9 for 1 you would only get paid 8 because 1 stays up.

    The hard 4 or 10 pays 7 to 1 or 8 for 1.

    All fire bets that I have seen pay "for 1", not "to 1". That doesn't mean that your casinos are the same, but check the pay table as it will clearly say either for or to.

    In horse racing, you pay tax on a two dollar bet that pays $602, because the tax is at 300 to 1 or greater. I have had winners of 605 where I had to get a W-2, but I have also had winners of 599 or 600 and not received a W-2.


    In video poker, if a full house pays 40, that is the gross win and your actual payoff is 8 for 1 or 7 to 1. VP pays "for 1", not "to 1" so as to make the payoffs look higher.
    Regnis, in vp the tables refer to "800 TO 1" (not "800 FOR 1") for a royal, for example. You get 800 units if you hit it, not 801. And the wording for "800 FOR 1" is very clear: bet 1 unit, hit it, and receive 800 units back for that 1 unit bet. Either way, you get 800, and either way, the W2G is required to be written for the gross amount of the win, which is 800 units.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Regnis, in vp the tables refer to "800 TO 1" (not "800 FOR 1") for a royal, for example. You get 800 units if you hit it, not 801. And the wording for "800 FOR 1" is very clear: bet 1 unit, hit it, and receive 800 units back for that 1 unit bet. Either way, you get 800, and either way, the W2G is required to be written for the gross amount of the win, which is 800 units.
    Rob--despite playing VP for all these years, oddly I don't know if the pay table says 800 to 1, or just says that the win pays 800 (which is 799 to 1). If it actually says 800 to 1, then we have the greatest class action lawsuit of all time. So I assume it doesn't say 800 to 1--it probably just says winner gets 800.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •