Does anyone else take the 7 Stars cruises?

[Alan Mendelson]

Am I missing something, or is kind of ironic for 7-Stars members to be talking about saving 20 bucks here or working the system to the bone for a hundred bucks there?

I also think it's ironic that people will push a button on a slot machine for 75-cents or $3 or $15 yet they will question whether they were short-changed 10-cents at a drive thru window.

I also think it's ironic that certain people won't tip $10 on a hand pay after playing through several thousand dollars on a video poker machine.

[Kerry W.]

The nascent of a banning in progress . Here we go!

[Alan Mendelson]

The nascent of a banning in progress . Here we go!

I don't think so.

[Rob.Singer]

Let's look at ironic for a moment. In one instance, people who have no problem betting a million dollars or more each year while expecting to lose anywhere from a few thousand to much more, are suddenly concerned to the nth degree about where they can save a few bucks on product and/or services purchases. That to me really makes no sense, when in most cases the purchases could have easily been paid for in cash that was far less than what was lost. I've never understood this intellect.

On the no-tipping front: I'm not buying anything, not asking for anything, and if I lose a bundle no one is going to come by and tip me for my services that include keeping their job security healthy. Yet if a big winner hits--and although I and everyone else knows it's mainly due to intimidation--tipping is for some reason seen as some sort of blind obligation. So it's not even apples & oranges--it's baseballs & oranges.

[Alan Mendelson]

Rob I agree with you on this:

Let's look at ironic for a moment. In one instance, people who have no problem betting a million dollars or more each year while expecting to lose anywhere from a few thousand to much more, are suddenly concerned to the nth degree about where they can save a few bucks on product and/or services purchases. That to me really makes no sense, when in most cases the purchases could have easily been paid for in cash that was far less than what was lost. I've never understood this intellect.

And about your tipping comment below -- there is no rule about tipping. And no one expects you to tip when you lose -- and I think that's widely held.
Perhaps those of us who do tip on handpays would be better off tipping at the end of the session when we can see if we actually do have a profit.

On the no-tipping front: I'm not buying anything, not asking for anything, and if I lose a bundle no one is going to come by and tip me for my services that include keeping their job security healthy. Yet if a big winner hits--and although I and everyone else knows it's mainly due to intimidation--tipping is for some reason seen as some sort of blind obligation. So it's not even apples & oranges--it's baseballs & oranges.

[Dan Druff]

What is wrong with saving money?

Isn't this site called "AlanBestBuys.com"?

Being frugal and attempting to get value for your money is a lifestyle choice, and extends into your overall financial decisions and general attitude about money.

Besides, it all adds up.

The people who take the attitude of, "It's just $20" are soon saying "It's just $200" or "It's just $2000", and then find themselves broke.

It's also the principle in many cases. If I notice a billing error of $20, or even $5, you had better believe that I am going to say something about it, because I don't want to reward anyone for overcharging me.

Regarding the cruise, there is no point to take a "free" (or heavily discounted) cruise if you are going to let the cruise line heavily gouge you on a lot of marked up items and services. That REALLY adds up quickly.

So if you can get a tour to Mendenhall Glacier in town for $20/person, you would be a fool to pay $79/person on the ship for the exact same thing, since it requires just about zero effort to grab a tour from town.

[Alan Mendelson]

Dan, yes, everyone should try to save money. Heck, I built a career over more than 40 years in TV telling people to what your money and save your money. Heck, I've helped put people in jail who ripped off consumers.

But the irony of watching pennies after betting thousands of dollars can't be ignored.

Dan, I think your tips are great and thank you for sharing them. They are a true service. But perhaps the best tip would be "don't gamble."

[Dan Druff]

I try not to tell people not to gamble, unless they are close friends/relatives and I feel I have the right to intrude upon their life decisions.

I don't know most of the people on this forum, so I am not aware of their financial situation and what they can afford to lose while gambling. Do we likely have some problem gamblers who post here? Yes. But we are all adults here, and are on this forum to discuss gambling in various ways. Nobody wants to be preached to regarding their enjoyment of gambling, so I'm not going to do it.

I will admit that it does come off a bit weird to care about small amounts of money when routinely gambling large amounts, but I learned long ago to separate the two. As a professional poker player, that is an extremely necessary lifestyle skill. I have known so many players who went broke because they took an attitude of, "A single pot at the game I played today was $3,000, so there shouldn't be an issue with me spending $500 right now. It would be like I just lost a fraction of an extra pot."

Of course, if you are routinely engaging in highly -EV gambling and then acting frugal elsewhere in life, I agree that makes no sense. But for people who try to stick to the best odds games and maximize their associated comps, there's no problem with being frugal on top of that.

[Alan Mendelson]

I think gambling is okay as long as it is done with recreational dollars. Some people spend $50,000 a year playing golf. Some people spend as much sky diving. Others spend as much on alcohol and going to clubs. Still others spend as much buying a new car every year.

[Rob.Singer]

Perhaps those of us who do tip on handpays would be better off tipping at the end of the session when we can see if we actually do have a profit.

That would be a much better idea if you're playing at a place you return to a lot, esp. if you have some kind of connection to the crew who knows you. But I still wouldn't do it.

[seemoreroyals]

I think if you took a survey of gamblers you would find many of us are frugal. Many of us did not work their asses off, and in our case risk liability issues and risk assets by owning their own business just to throw it away by paying too much for something. We built our wealth by living at or below the standard of living of all or most of our employees that worked for us the entire 15 years we owned our business. We still live well below our means and enjoy the fact that we have had no housing or automobile debt in over 20 years. The only debt we have are credit cards that we pay in full every month. Which by the way generate close to or maybe a little more than $1000 a year in additional income with their cash back programs. We look at gambling as a form of recreation. Even if you lose $20,000 a year, if you have worked the system properly the food, flights, lodging, concert tickets, other forms of transportation, free cruises, etc, etc, etc. add up far beyond this total.

[Rob.Singer]

Dan you're so stuck on the very faulty notion that -EV gambling means you MUST lose, that you aren't clearly seeing what the overall point of the discussion is.

Here's the simple moral of the story: If a person has no problem risking hundreds of thousands of dollars and more in casinos, then why in the world would that same person not want to make their "regular outside life" easier and less conflict-filled by just relaxing when it comes to issues instead of all the neurotic penny-pinching I see posted here kind of regularly? When I was 25 and my credit card statement was off by ten bucks or my friend failed to pay me back the $5 I lent him, I'd do the same as you're doing now. But by the time I reached your age--and I had just started my interest in casinos by then--win or lose (and I did lose my first 6 or 7 years of AP gambling) all that frugal worrying about overpaying fifty bucks here or an unexpected good deal there, meant nothing, simply because I was a gambler who learned that in life you win some and you lose some. It all evens out in the end. Even though I've won quite a bit of money these last 15 years, those winnings have been chewed up in one way or another--many enjoyable and some not so much.

I've always believed, if you are a gambler, that should be where your stress begins and ends. Everything else is glorious living. You overpaid for something or something isn't quite right with that $20 charge on your credit card? Make a single respectable pass at it and take whatever comes of it with a grain of salt. Pretend you just lost it in a casino, Mr. Gambler. BFD. Smile and move on. You will like yourself far better 20years down the road.

[Rob.Singer]

I think if you took a survey of gamblers you would find many of us are frugal. Many of us did not work their asses off, and in our case risk liability issues and risk assets by owning their own business just to throw it away by paying too much for something. We built our wealth by living at or below the standard of living of all or most of our employees that worked for us the entire 15 years we owned our business. We still live well below our means and enjoy the fact that we have had no housing or automobile debt in over 20 years. The only debt we have are credit cards that we pay in full every month. Which by the way generate close to or maybe a little more than $1000 a year in additional income with their cash back programs. We look at gambling as a form of recreation. Even if you lose $20,000 a year, if you have worked the system properly the food, flights, lodging, concert tickets, other forms of transportation, free cruises, etc, etc, etc. add up far beyond this total.

Then you're somewhat like us--up in age We became cash-only buyers when we realized we weren't going to live forever. Gambling to most is a recreation, but when you say all those freebies equate to more than what's lost, well, I've heard that many many times from hundreds of players throughout the years. How do the casino doors stay open? It's most likely you've applied your own factors to the free stuff to get it to where you can comfortably justify the huge amount of gambling you do along with the losses. I know. I did the same exact thing for 7 years in the 90's.

I may be the only one around who does this, but if Dan is "overcomped" then I am severely "undercomped" when it comes to the TR program. Since being surprised with a 7-Stars card a ways back, I've not even used a free night, let alone taking advantage of all that other stuff they inundate us with. Why not? Because I'm extremely happy just having won some money from them. That's why I gamble recreationally--to win money. Yes I've used many many slot club benefits from many different casinos over the years, but I've never applied any value to them outside of being loyalty rewards.

[Alan Mendelson]

I don't apply any "value" to slot club benefits either. Yes, I will take them. But the bottom line is only in dollars and cents -- coin of the realm -- and legal tender for all debts public and private.

But you should get the best benefits and make use of the best benefits -- just don't play to get the benefits.

My golden rule is to ignore that "countdown meter" on machines that tell you how far you are from your next tier point or reward credit or bonus.

[seemoreroyals]

Well I do put value on the free stuff we get from CET. I would love to win more than we do but like Rob said, how do you think the casinos keep the door open. Alan when you hit that $20,000 jackpot on a $5 machine the other day, congratulations to you by the way, how hard is it to know to hit 4 to a royal. Not taking anything away from you but luck plays a huge roll in gambling. When Rob does his special plays he is gambling that they will allow him to win in the here and now even though the mathematically correct plays are contrary to what he does. So like most people that go to the casinos, I understand that the casinos have a built in house edge. And the only way you can win is to get more than your fair share of royals and other premium hands. Realizing this my wife and I make a conscious effort to extract every comp we possibly can from the 7 star total reward program. And if we have an acceptable loss for a given year we are okay with that and chalk it up as recreation.

[seemoreroyals]

Then you're somewhat like us--up in age We became cash-only buyers when we realized we weren't going to live forever. Gambling to most is a recreation, but when you say all those freebies equate to more than what's lost, well, I've heard that many many times from hundreds of players throughout the years. How do the casino doors stay open? It's most likely you've applied your own factors to the free stuff to get it to where you can comfortably justify the huge amount of gambling you do along with the losses. I know. I did the same exact thing for 7 years in the 90's.

I may be the only one around who does this, but if Dan is "overcomped" then I am severely "undercomped" when it comes to the TR program. Since being surprised with a 7-Stars card a ways back, I've not even used a free night, let alone taking advantage of all that other stuff they inundate us with. Why not? Because I'm extremely happy just having won some money from them. That's why I gamble recreationally--to win money. Yes I've used many many slot club benefits from many different casinos over the years, but I've never applied any value to them outside of being loyalty rewards.

Rob I thought you made 7 star last year? And if you did, why not take advantage of everything you can from it? To me it would add to the overall win you would have each year.

[Alan Mendelson]

And the only way you can win is to get more than your fair share of royals and other premium hands. Realizing this my wife and I make a conscious effort to extract every comp we possibly can from the 7 star total reward program. And if we have an acceptable loss for a given year we are okay with that and chalk it up as recreation.

Absolutely true: you have to get lucky to win.

And yes, you should take advantage of all offers and comps. But you don't want to make the mistake of valuing comps so much that you lose sight of the real money that you might be losing.

[Rob.Singer]

Because I found much better games at closer casinos. I've never been one to get hooked on one or two casino programs anyway. As far as all the benefits, because of our moving around we go 4,5, even 6 months between staying nearby casino locations. We did cruises in our younger years and these days we prefer a much quieter lifestyle. The short answer is I don't usually play for the benefits, so I can take them or leave the majority of them. However, if I were getting beaten by CET I would certainly try to get at least SOME of it back via the TR program.

Regarding needing more than my share of the big hands to win, that's not true with my play strategy. It's all about quitting when you said you were going to quit after doing what you said you were going to do when you played. What Alan said about needing to be lucky, however, is correct. No one wins anything without a healthy serving of good fortune. My play strategy gives good luck a better opportunity to appear. And remember, greed is a gambler's #1 enemy.

[Alan Mendelson]

Rob, I used one of your special plays on that trip to Vegas last weekend. I played a little Triple Double Bonus and was dealt a full house with triple-3s. The full house was 333AA. I held only the trip 3s.

[Rob.Singer]

That reminds me of a time in 2009 when I was training 3 people simultaneously on a floor machine outside the All American Grill at the Rio. I broke normal protocol and played my own money in order to be able to explain what I was doing to all 3 together on one machine. I was teaching ARTT strategy at a five-level 25c thru $5 machine. I lost my 100 credits at $5 BP but I did have $75 of my $100 win goal in the soft profit pool.

So I chose TBP+ as my $5 advanced BP game to play my 300 credits on, and by now there were at least a dozen people standing behind me and to my sides, watching, listening, and two guys even criticizing who I was and what I was doing. The hand you were dealt came up, and it was one of really not too many opportunities I had to show them the how & why of a special play that deviates from optimal strategy.

Well of course I held only the 3's, to the moans and groans of the small crowd. I did take a moment to explain how it was an "opportunity" to end the session a winner by reaching my win goal. Here's where the two critics began telling everyone approximately how much that hold was "costing me" and how foolish it was. I mildly argued back but didn't't make a big deal out of it. So when I hit the draw button and that 4th 3 came out (a $3000 hit) the "students" actually started an applause while the two critics disappeared faster than the 2 on WoV's die.

It's not something that happens every day but it does happen. And all the math theory in the world cannot and will not change that.