I was asked what I thought about Dice Control?

[Alan Mendelson]

I receive a message from a member of another forum who asked me what I thought about dice control. Part of his query follows:

I saw a few posts of yours where you were talking about being a dice control fan in the early days, but now are not in favor of it. I am in agreement with you for this reason. If dice control really worked, a seminar to learn dice control would not cost a few hundred dollars. It would be five figures, at least, maybe six figures. There are many gamblers with very deep pockets who would pay real money for a sure edge over the house.

And here is how I responded to him:

Hi and thanks for the email message. This is a really good question. I am going to give you my answer and then, I am going to use it on my own forum on www.alanbestbuys.com.

Yes, I was "hooked up" with the dice control crowd early on... well before they were holding classes and selling seminars. I know (name deleted because of privacy) from way back. Some of my articles about casinos still appear in websites run by the "dice control pioneers."

Actually, I still am a fan of dice control, but I question if the so called experts really can "control" the dice.

To me, control is not demonstrated by the end result of the dice because even random shooters can get lucky and have good "results" meaning good numbers.

To me, the true test of dice control is how the dice look and behave using slow motion video and do the dice really move in a controlled manner?

I have watched plenty of videos by so-called "dice controllers" and they do not "control" the dice -- though they do get good results. And to me that means they were lucky.

As I have said many times... there is nothing wrong with trying to influence or control the dice, so you should try. There is nothing wrong with taking a course, or lessons. There is nothing wrong with paying a fee. Just realize that dice influencing and dice control is a fine skill.

Not everyone can throw a pass like Dan Marino or hit a golf ball like Tiger Woods or pitch like Sandy Koufax. And not everyone can control or influence dice no matter how much you spend on classes or how long you practice.

If a "dice influencing school" is honest about what it teaches and if the students are realistic about what can be taught and what skill they might have, then there is nothing wrong in selling lessons or taking lessons.

I once took guitar lessons but never learned to play the guitar, and I took piano lessons but never learned to play the piano. The piano and guitar teachers didn't rip me off or commit a crime -- I just couldn't or didn't want to learn.

Can the teachers of dice control really control the dice? I don't know if they can and I don't know if it matters. Even if they can't control dice themselves it's okay for them to teach the science and the strategy. My driver's education teacher in high school was not a race car driver, but he could teach you how to win a race.

Frankly, you could just read Sharpshooter's book and practice on your own without going to a class. Can you argue against spending $15 for a book? I can't. Even if you don't believe in Sharpshooter's theories, there is also practical info in the book which is worth the cover price.

[Rob.Singer]

No matter what the reasons given, the perceived "skill" levels, or the ongoing spin, anyone who takes other people's money in exchange for a purported "training in how to control dice" does so for one single, overriding reason: because they are unsuccessful gamblers.

The emailer made an argument-ending point--- if any of it had any validity whatsoever and worked in the slightest, the training would go for at least five figures. Continuing to make comparisons between teaching musical instrument skills etc. is less and less convincing. Music teachers are not trying to make up for losses sustained because of what they do.

[Alan Mendelson]

So what if they are unsuccessful gamblers, Rob. Does that mean they don't know about how to control dice, or how to play the game, or how to bet, or what the odds are, or what are the best bets to make? These are all things that are also taught in dice influencing classes.

My music teachers probably weren't good enough to play with great orchestras, and so they taught music lessons.

Just because you "gave away" your knowledge about video poker doesn't mean others should also give away their knowledge. Perhaps these teachers value their time and knowledge more than you did.

Tell us Rob, just how valuable are your lessons? How valuable is your time? How valuable is your knowledge? If you give it away you can't value it very much.

[Rob.Singer]

That's misguided perception Alan. People who teach music do so mainly due to a love of an art and a desire to share their passion. It's also a way to make a living. Those involved in gambling who sell crazy--or even mathematically sound systems--do so for one single reason: to take money from others whether they succeed or fail at the training....and it will give the teachers more cash to continue their failed gambling with. There is zero passion involved, and there is no question what they teach is not an art.

I've always taught for free because I discovered a very successful way to play that also might help others, if they want to be helped. People who sell gambling do not care if their students are helped or not. They just want to get their hands on other people's money so they can gamble more. You would have to be one of these teachers to know.

[Alan Mendelson]

Excuse me, Saint Rob... but perhaps you tutored for free to gain credibility and followers?

[slingshot]

I read several authors before I read Rob's articles and I shoulda saved my money. For one thing, the casino setup will completely mock all strategies that I read. At that time I had not started vp play as a main play. Five years ago I was hotter than a firecracker- I estimate I have a total of at least 30 Royals. A few years ago, things changed and that's when I started listening to common sense-because I knew something was wrong. For me the info is priceless...and I'm not just talking about the strategy. I thought I had gotten so good that I could win any time by my grasp of the math.

[Alan Mendelson]

slingshot forgive me... but for a guy who has said he has a gambling problem what "common sense" are you talking about?

[slingshot]

slingshot forgive me... but for a guy who has said he has a gambling problem what "common sense" are you talking about?

The best way I know to answer it is that all the knowledge in the world won't offset being at the right machine at the right time. And win/loss limits also help. That's all I know to say, Alan. The rest you have problems with, so I don't see any reason to rehash it all.

[Alan Mendelson]

The problem with Rob's argument is that he is questioning the motives of those who claim to be dice influencers or "controllers" and the motive of those who teach classes, but he does not challenge the science of dice influencing or dice control. And of course he can't -- because he doesn't know what it is. He doesn't know or understand the theory. He doesn't even play the game and he's never indicated that he even once picked up a pair of dice at a casino or even spoke to anyone about what is involved at DI or DC.

[Rob.Singer]

Alan, you must be tired. Too many trips to LV and not enuf exercise perhaps?

That's nuts to believe there's any science to the phoney dice influencing nonsense. Frank and the others made that BS up for the sole purpose of taking as much of other people's money as possible. Income generation Alan--ever heard of it? These people should all be prosecuted. Some of them were recently exposed as frauds in a LV courthouse. The "what goes around comes around" syndrome.

So you looked at the dice in slow-mo. Big whoop. It means as much as watching the roulette wheel in slow motion. Like I said, it stands as common sense and fact that gaming authors who lose at the games they claim to be expert at, ALWAYS go into the business of selling anything they can about the games they play. And it's a curse they'll have to live with the rest of their lives. Just take a look at them one by one, then compare that scenario to what an author like myself, who's won and who never charged anyone anything for training, is doing today. Retirement is a beautiful thing, if you've prepared for it, and IF you can control your gambling habit. For the rest, well, their cake is as stale as it was when they chose to go after other people's money instead of learning their games of choice properly.

I tutored...and still do...for free because I like to help others. Credibility and followers are things these other hucksters need, just like they need follower's money.

[Alan Mendelson]

Rob do me one favor: read Sharpshooter's book on dice influencing. Then come back here and tell me what you think about it. Thanks.

[Rob.Singer]

OK Alan. And please do one thing for me. Ask your own sense why people like Frank, Dancer, Scott, Curtis, Wong, Paymar etc. all continually have the need to sell either their junk strategies, or the same math approaches anyone can find for free all over the Internet. These people are all perceived successful winning gamblers, right? And what do successful gamblers do? YATZEE!! Yes, if they need more money, they simply go out and WIN it! Winners certainly do not beg other people for their money. Ever..

[Alan Mendelson]

Rob... some people choose buying a course, or attending a school, or buying a book, or paying for a lecture because it suits their needs and interests. No one forces you to buy Dancer's books or software or Frank's books. Some people choose to because that is what they want to do.

I don't blame someone who decides to pay $1,500 for a course playing craps in someone's garage in Vegas if otherwise they might drop $1,500 at a casino... because in the garage they might learn something about proper betting or how to attempt dice influencing. You'll never learn that at the casino, will you?

There is nothing wrong with these "teachers" or "schools" or "authors" filling a need as long as they don't try to bilk their customers with some scam. I've been to a Dancer lecture -- it was free and he never asked me for money. I've read Frank's books and Wong's books and neither of them asked me to contribute to anything.

And back in the old days when I hung out with the "original" dice influencing crowd we all used our own money at the tables.

Regarding what you call "junk strategies" -- what is one man's junk is another man's treasure. Personally, I would never play craps without at least trying dice influencing. I've read Sharpshooter's book, and yes the "science" behind dice influencing is real. YOU as a human might not have the physical skill to pull it off but the SCIENCE is valid.

[slingshot]

I don't play but do I understand this right? No matter how you hold or try to release them, don't they still have to bounce of the sides? If so, how do you factor in the coefficient of friction of the mat, and the angle of the dangle whenever they hit?

[Alan Mendelson]

slingshot, I really think you should read Sharpshooter's book.

Dice Influencing or "dice control" is not exact... and neither is video poker. The goal of dice influencing and so-called "dice control" is to limit the variables. You cannot "control" the variables. The fewer variables you have the better the chances that you will get numbers on the dice that will favor your bets.

Yes, there are many variables in a totally "random" throw. But if you can start to limit the variables you start to improve your chances.

Its the same with video poker. No matter what strategy you follow you still have the variable of the RNG. Dice influencing or dice control is the equivalent of a strategy, and you still have the variables of the table conditions.

Rob makes a big deal about hitting the pyramids. What he overlooks is that you dont have to hit the pyramids.

The absolute "ultimate" in dice conrol is the slide -- and that's illegal. Therefore the goal of dice controllers and dice influencers is to do the next best thing than a slide. And that can be accomplished... not by many, but by a few very skilled players.

[dannyj]

Well put Alan. I own Sharpshooters book as well as a few of Frank's. I have never payed for a class; for me the books are enough and have been good investments.
I like what you said and totally agree that "I would never play craps without at least trying dice influencing".

[Alan Mendelson]

Thank you dannyj. This is why I can't play "card craps" seriously. At Rincon you throw two dice which choose two cards. How the dice land has no relation to what the cards will show -- it's all blind luck. Yet, I see players betting big money on what I consider to be nothing more than roulette with dice and cards.

When Ive played card craps it was only for minimal bets hoping that the "craps roulette" would be lucky for me.

By the way, I think it's ludicrous to set and try a controlled throw at card craps unless players are doing this to practice for when they are at a "real dice game".

[dannyj]

I only played card craps once, about 10 years ago at Barona before we moved to oregon from san diego. I think it was pretty much a brand new game in calif at that time as Sycuan and Viejas did not have it . To me it was kind of weird, and yes, setting the dice and trying to influence would be pointless, although I would still do it as a discipline and practice.