What rules have you seen for dice craps regarding the "back wall"?

[Alan Mendelson]

Over the years, I have experienced different rules at different casinos about the "back wall." Some casinos say you must hit the back wall, while others say make it look like you tried to reach the back wall, or you came close. At one casino (Bellagio) I actually got into an argument with the dealers who demanded that my dice throw not only hit the back wall, but the dice must bounce off the back wall by several inches -- but this rule was enforced only when a shooter "set" their dice. Later, upper management at Bellagio said there is no such rule about bouncing the dice off the back wall.

So below are several "rules" about the back wall and throwing dice. Which have you seen? If there are other rules you have seen please tell us about them. If you have an opinion about certain rules, please explain your position.

Personally, I favor the unwritten and unpublished rule of the Nevada Gaming Commission about what constitutes a valid roll of the dice:

1. The dice must fly in the air
2. The dice must hit the table surface at least once
3. The dice must hit the back wall

There are other "rules" that are also "understood" about dice throws including that the dice can only be handled with one hand, and they must be released simultaneously.

[regnis]

Alan- I know that there are published rules in New Jersey, and that there are no published rules for table games in Nevada.

In Illinois, there are no published rules. However, per gaming board rules, each casino must have internal rules for each game. Mostly these rules are administrative rather than relating to the actual game. The Board simply outlines what should be in these rules. This is an excerpt from the gaming board rules:

ILLINOIS GAMING BOARD
MINIMUM INTERNAL CONTROL STANDARDS
SECTION D - RULES OF THE GAME
General
Detailed procedures for each game that the Owner Licensee implements must be included in the ICS, ensuring that the following controls are addressed:
1. Object of the game and method of play including what constitutes win, loss or tie bets;
2. Physical characteristics of the game, gaming equipment and gaming table;
3. Wagers and payout odds for each type of available wager:
a. Describe the permissible wagers and payout odds;
b. Minimum and maximum wagers must be posted on a sign at each table; and
c. Maximum table payouts, if any, must be posted at each table and must not be less than the maximum bet times the maximum odds.
4. For each game that uses the following, describe inspection procedures for:
a. Cards;
b. Dice;
c. Wheels and balls;
d. Manual and electronic devices used to operate, display the outcome or monitor live games; and
e. Cards or punchboards.
5. For each game that uses cards describe:
a. Shuffling procedures;
b. Card cutting procedures;
c. Procedures for dealing and taking cards; and
d. Burning cards.
6. For the game of roulette, ensure the dealing procedures include statements that the dealer:
a. Must not slow down the roulette wheel when it is spinning; and
b. Must look away from the roulette wheel before dropping the ball.
7. Describe procedures for the collection of bets and payouts;
8. Describe procedures for dispute arbitration including documenting disputes. A copy of these reports must be given to the IGB Docksite Supervisor;
9. Describe procedures for handling suspected cheating or irregularities and immediate notification of the IGB Docksite Supervisor/Agent;
10. Describe procedures for dealers being relieved; and
March 23, 2010 D-1
ILLINOIS GAMING BOARD
MINIMUM INTERNAL CONTROL STANDARDS
SECTION D - RULES OF THE GAME
11. Provide procedures for immediate notification to the IGB Docksite Supervisor/Agent when equipment is suspected to be defective or malfunctioning.
Each tournament, enhanced payout and give-away game will entail a different set of rules and conditions, which must be submitted under separate cover to the IGB Administrator for approval prior to implementation.
March


I have been trying to get a copy of these rules from any of the various casinos but have been unable to do so.

In Indiana, there are also no published rules. That being said, you may recall my report on a previous thread where I filed an appeal with the Indiana Gaming Commission regarding an issue at the craps table. I won that appeal despite my inability to point to any specific rules.

I was also able to beat 2 casinos on behalf of jackpot winners where the internal rules were unclear and conflicted with IRS rules. Thereafter, I was notified by the gaming board that a specific regulation had been signed and passed that would preclude me from winning on similar cases in the future. Of course, because that regulation was specifically directed at me I could challenge it on constitutional grounds, but I have chosen not to.

P.S.-While typing this I received a call from Illinois Gaming regarding an ongoing case. So I asked the guy I'm working with how I could get a copy of these internal rules from each casino. He said ask each casino. If they won't provide them call enforcement division of Illinois Gaming. If they won't provide, file a Freedom of Information request.


It shouldn't be that hard. Why are they so secretive/