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Thread: Definition of Full Pay

  1. #1
    I'm sad to report that the old FPDW (101%) at the Palms are gone, replaced by machines that -- according to the placard above them -- are "full pay." Now I'm old school and have been around for the heyday of video poker, so my definition of "full pay" is the original definition of "full pay," which is 100% or more if played properly. The machines at the Palms that replaced my beloved FPDW pay 99-something percent if played optimally.

    Here's my observation and my point: the placards say "full pay," but also quote the exact percentage return if played optimally. Every time, anywhere in LV, that I've seen a machine signage with the words "full pay," the signage also quotes an exact percentage for optimal play.

    Now being a cynical boy, I strongly suspect that the reason for this isn't to enlighten the players as to the machines' percentages, but because there is some legal original definition of "full pay" on the books that probably requires casinos to add the exact percentage to the signage if the words "full pay" are used but the machines do not return 100%.

    To test my theory, I ask the forum members to check out any signage in LV with the "full pay" adjectival phrase, and let me know if any of these signs are NOT accompanied by the exact optimal percentage.

    My suspicion is that courts did not or will not buy the casino-push-polled definition of "full pay" as "the most common" or "best common" variation of a machine, as this definition could change every hour and does the consumer no real service. So casinos, while touting "full pay" with their own preferred definition, still have to toe the line and report the actual percentage when using the "full pay" advertising slogan.

  2. #2
    Your personal definition (100%+) does not apply to some VP games. For example, full pay bonus is 8/5 (99.17%); full pay JOB 9/6 (99.54%). With these particular pay tables, "full pay" can be utilized in signage and the percent need not be mentioned at all. If the player sees the signage and then assumes these games to be 100%+, they really don't know their video poker.

  3. #3
    Originally Posted by Vegas Vic View Post
    Your personal definition (100%+) does not apply to some VP games. For example, full pay bonus is 8/5 (99.17%); full pay JOB 9/6 (99.54%). With these particular pay tables, "full pay" can be utilized in signage and the percent need not be mentioned at all. If the player sees the signage and then assumes these games to be 100%+, they really don't know their video poker.
    THIS

    While I agree the term "full pay" is misleading, anyone following VP knows the standard "full pay" of the day for each game (at least the popular ones). For those that don't follow VP closely, the full pay sign is telling them that they aren't degrading the pay table compared to other casinos (or their own high limit section).

    BTW, as someone who didn't always play VP, I would never have taken "full pay" to mean 100%. I wouldn't have exactly known what that meant, but I definitely wouldn't have assumed I'd be +EV with perfect play.
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  4. #4
    We went through this before. "Full pay" does not necessarily mean a 100% or 100+% return game. Rather it's the best that's commonly available for a particular game. 9/6 Jacks or Better is the full pay game, but there are casinos that might have 9/7 Jacks or 9/6 Jacks with a progressive.

    I think the real headline here is, however, that the Palms downgraded games that it used to be very well known for -- its famous deuces games that even Bob Dancer popularized.

  5. #5
    Gentlemen (and I use the term loosely),

    I am aware of everything you just said. I'm not a moron (on Thursdays). I am aware of the common usage of the term on sites, on forums, in media, and so on. What I'm asking is if anyone is aware of signage in casinos where "full pay" is advertised without percentages quoted. Vic, you say "full pay" for certain games can be utilized in signage without quoted percentages. I haven't seen that, so just point me in the direction where casino signage above video poker machines does that. I'm asking for any specific casino signs you guys can point out that use the "full pay" slogan without percentages.

  6. #6
    Yes let's focus on the question. I haven't seen "full pay" advertised anywhere. I have seen "percentages" signs but never the words "full pay."

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Gentlemen (and I use the term loosely),

    I am aware of everything you just said. I'm not a moron (on Thursdays). I am aware of the common usage of the term on sites, on forums, in media, and so on. What I'm asking is if anyone is aware of signage in casinos where "full pay" is advertised without percentages quoted. Vic, you say "full pay" for certain games can be utilized in signage without quoted percentages. I haven't seen that, so just point me in the direction where casino signage above video poker machines does that. I'm asking for any specific casino signs you guys can point out that use the "full pay" slogan without percentages.
    First off, "can be used" does not mean "is being used". I have no idea if I've ever seen "full pay" on signage as I generally don't pay attention to ANY signage but instead look at the pay table of a machine before I select where I will sit. Perhaps I will be more cognizant of such trivial matters next time I am in a casino. Secondly, I guess I'm surprised anyone would still equate "full pay = 100%+" when games that fall into that category might not number more than 5% of all the games out there.

  8. #8
    I doubt that the number of 100+% video poker games comes anywhere close to 5%. I don't think you will find a 100+% VP game at any Caesars owned or operated casino -- and that's the biggest casino company.

  9. #9
    Vic, you're a real peach. So when you say "can be used," is that your established personal opinion, a legal statement of fact, or something you decided to say on a whim?

    Anyway, for those of us interested in such trivial matters, my point is that if all in-casino signage using the adjectival phrase "full pay" is accompanied by a specific statement of percentage, that strongly suggests to me that, legally, the signage is required to state that. That is my point and my question, which is why I requested forum members to report if they see signage with "full pay" but no percentage listed. Now I think it's odds-against that they have to both appear, but if nobody can find signage stating "full pay" without an accompanying percentage listed, then I think I'm onto something in terms of legal requirements.

    I'd estimate the number of 100%-plus machines at less than half a percent, maybe much less than that. What Alan says is correct. The 10/7 progressive at The Four Queens is probably the current biggest group of them.

  10. #10
    As I recall, signs have to be demonstratively true. If you look around you'll see signage on a bank of slots that state either "99% payback" or "Up to 99% payback". In the former all the machines have to achieve that, in the latter just one does. I believe that prior to Micheal Shackleford's 2003 survey a casino was not allowed to advertise "loosest slots in town" because there was no way to prove that, but the Palms was able to do it after the survey came out and showed they did have the best slot odds. I was curious so I Googled for "Vegas loosest slots in town" and it wasn't until near the bottom of the first page where I found a casino using it.

    On their web page the ElCo states "We have some of the loosest slots in town", (emphasis added), and included this graphic:


    If you look at those file names it has "SlotPercentages-March2014" in the name, so I would presume they have something to back that up, and they keep it up to date. I also seem to recall 3 or 4 years ago there was some controversy downtown, perhaps with the Plaza or Las Vegas Club, making a similar claim that raised the hackles of the gambling commission, but I don't remember the details.

    I don't think that really helps your query or answers it but I thought the information might be of use for the general conversation, and may have something to do with your question as well. The question I would have is how could you call something "full pay" when there are other pay tables available that are higher, some of them still in use in other casino's?

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