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Thread: Labor Day Trip Report: Caesars Palace

  1. #41
    Thanks guys for the explanations.

    Dan if the demomination affected the draws wouldn't that be illegal?

  2. #42
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Thanks guys for the explanations.

    Dan if the demomination affected the draws wouldn't that be illegal?
    I don't know. It could be a factor used in random number generation, just like the timing of button presses.

    But denomination doesn't change your odds. THAT would be illegal.
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  3. #43
    I suspect it has to be the same game AND paytable.

    Many games have a better paytable as the denominations go higher.

    I see plenty of machines with 9/6/4 Double Bonus (ugly 96% game) at 25c/50c levels and it suddenly has 9/7/5 DB (99.1%) at the $1 level and above.

    Part of the game "shell" requires a different program at different paytables even if the actual game is the same.

    Also, the hand you see that was played last by the previous player? That will change even with the same game if a different denomination has a different paytable. It MUST do this in order for the VP machine to give specific instructions on exactly how many credits it will add to your credit meter when you hit a straight or a flush, for instance. (different "shell" programs...9/6/4 DB & 9/7/5 DB all using the same shared RNG program).

    Each game has several hands in memory and placed somewhere in RAM (just speculating). Each game has its own partitioned memory to store these hands, including the last one played that you see on the screen.

  4. #44
    Originally Posted by Count Room View Post
    I suspect it has to be the same game AND paytable.

    Many games have a better paytable as the denominations go higher.

    I see plenty of machines with 9/6/4 Double Bonus (ugly 96% game) at 25c/50c levels and it suddenly has 9/7/5 DB (99.1%) at the $1 level and above.

    Part of the game "shell" requires a different program at different paytables even if the actual game is the same.

    Also, the hand you see that was played last by the previous player? That will change even with the same game if a different denomination has a different paytable. It MUST do this in order for the VP machine to give specific instructions on exactly how many credits it will add to your credit meter when you hit a straight or a flush, for instance. (different "shell" programs...9/6/4 DB & 9/7/5 DB all using the same shared RNG program).

    Each game has several hands in memory and placed somewhere in RAM (just speculating). Each game has its own partitioned memory to store these hands, including the last one played that you see on the screen.
    It doesn't require a different program, unless the law requires that.

    Otherwise it can just pass in parameters of the pay table, and use the same program (which is what I assume it does).
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  5. #45
    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    It doesn't require a different program, unless the law requires that.

    Otherwise it can just pass in parameters of the pay table, and use the same program (which is what I assume it does).
    Yes, you could definitely replace the fixed values (9/6/4 vs. 9/7/5 DB) in different programs with a variable using parameters based off of changing denominations, but I do think you are right that the law requires separate programs since the % payback of each game is different.

    9/6/4 vs. 9/7/5 DB probably legally are considered different "games" even though the game rules are exactly the same.

    One easy way to check this is simply go to a casino with those multi-denom machines with large game menus. Check the paytables at lower denominations vs. higher denominations on the same game. Are the stored cards different with different paytables? Those are probably considered different "games" each requiring their own program.

    Again, though, I am just a hobbyist. I wish I had spent more time in school studying computer science like Dan did. Interesting stuff!

  6. #46
    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    It doesn't require a different program, unless the law requires that.

    Otherwise it can just pass in parameters of the pay table, and use the same program (which is what I assume it does).
    Giving this some more thought....

    There is a possibility that the game program uses denominations as a parameters of the differing paytables, and then uses different "pointers" based off of the paytable to store the recently-played cards in different areas of memory, thus keeping the base game the same even with different paytables.

    This is pure speculation on my part and here it is getting too advanced for my own coding knowledge. Can't go any further than this with what I currently know...

    POINTERS (link)
    Last edited by Count Room; 09-04-2014 at 10:49 PM.

  7. #47
    Count - I need one more cup of coffee and then I'm sure I'll understand exactly what you just said....

  8. #48
    Chimp:

    Here's your cup of coffee with extra cream & sugar:

    Dan and I were discussing whether the same game on a IGT Game King menu can actually contain different "games within the game option".

    For instance, say you have an IGT Game King machine and it offers 25-cent/50-cent/$1/$2/$5 denominations. One of the games offered is Bonus Poker.

    Let's also say the 25c/50c levels offer only 6/5 BP, $1 is 7/5 BP, and $2/$5 levels are 8/5 BP.

    If you look at the stored cards of the last hand left behind by the previous player, you should see that the cards will be the same for the 25c/50c level because they are both from the 6/5 game. The $1 7/5 game will have its own cards, and the $2/$5 8/5 game will have its own cards as well.

    Now the question is: Since there are three different paytables, does that constitute three different "games" even though they are all Bonus Poker because of legal requirements? The different cards left behind at the different paytables make it APPEAR so, and that's what Dan and I were talking about.

    If so, then each paytable level would require their own programs with fixed paytable instructions because of legal requirements.

    If not, then all three paytables could be generated via variables (6/5, 7/5, 8/5 BP) from the parameter of the denomination selected by the player. This is more efficient from a software programming standpoint since you only have to add a few lines of code to change the paytables on the fly off the same base game (Bonus Poker). Even so, the cards in memory (from the three different BP paytable levels) are still intact. Why is this? We don't know for sure.

    I am only speculating in my last post about pointers as a way to store the cards from different paytables in different areas of the VP machine's memory if only one Bonus Poker program is used for all three paytables in this example instead of three separate Bonus Poker programs, each with their own fixed paytable.

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by Count Room; 09-05-2014 at 09:47 AM. Reason: Further clarification.....

  9. #49
    Thanks Count. I get most of what you're saying. Very interesting stuff, even for non-computer people like me.

  10. #50
    I know for sure, because the machine I had incorporated two microprocessor chips. The games at different denominations, because of different pay tables, are completely independent of each other.

  11. #51
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    I know for sure, because the machine I had incorporated two microprocessor chips. The games at different denominations, because of different pay tables, are completely independent of each other.
    Rob: Can you kindly tell us what the brand and model number of the machine is? Since you are aware of the inner components, this should be an easy question. Maybe I can learn something new here.

  12. #52
    Originally Posted by Count Room View Post
    Rob: Can you kindly tell us what the brand and model number of the machine is? Since you are aware of the inner components, this should be an easy question. Maybe I can learn something new here.
    In before lame excuse
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  13. #53
    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    I left a few iPhone chargers at a hotel in Niagara Falls, and they referred me to a third-party UPS store, who wanted to gouge me to return the items (like $28). Keep in mind these were all very light and don't take up much room.

    I told them to forget it and just throw the items away.
    I was reading a web article with travel tips and one of the tips was this:

    If you forgot to bring a phone charger with you on your trip, ask the hotel's "lost and found" if there are any abandoned chargers that you can borrow during your stay.

  14. #54
    Count, it was an IGT multi-game/multi-denomination. It was the generation immediately prior to the new machines of today. I don't have the model number.

  15. #55
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Count, it was an IGT multi-game/multi-denomination. It was the generation immediately prior to the new machines of today. I don't have the model number.
    When you say the "new machines of today" I think you should be more specific. IGT a few months ago introduced new Game Kings in a new cabinet with wider screens. And the game menu is displayed differently. Caesars has these machines now as does Rincon. Or do you mean a newer generation of what we are all familiar with as the Game Kings that also can be found in most casinos today?

    What I am asking is simply this: saying it was the generation immediately prior to the new machines of today is not a way to identify any particular model.

  16. #56
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    When you say the "new machines of today" I think you should be more specific. IGT a few months ago introduced new Game Kings in a new cabinet with wider screens. And the game menu is displayed differently. Caesars has these machines now as does Rincon. Or do you mean a newer generation of what we are all familiar with as the Game Kings that also can be found in most casinos today?

    What I am asking is simply this: saying it was the generation immediately prior to the new machines of today is not a way to identify any particular model.
    Correct, but I was being general and not specific. This was prior to 2010, and the new machine that I had was the first type to offer a simple on-screen menu as well as having the capability of being fibre optically controlled from a remote location. Today's machines that I've seen at some casinos now have complex on screen menus that do much more. That's why I characterized them as such.

  17. #57
    To conclude the trip report: the FedEx package from lost and found was delivered to my home on Monday and Tuesday night I brought the FedEx box over to my date. She opened it and everything was there including the check made out to her. As everyone knows, no gentleman would look inside a woman's purse so I kept the box sealed and let her open it and check the contents.

    By the way, it's the same style of check that you get from the cage when you take a jackpot as a check. This was the first time I ever saw a check from Caesars that wasn't for a jackpot and I guess they use the same style check for all company purposes.

    There was a letter included. And the letterhead said, surprisingly, CAESAR and not Caesars.

    By the way, look at the old style W2Gs from Caesars. They have an apostrophe in Caesar's which is not correct. The name of the place is Caesars and not Caesar's.

    There is a new style W2G that they just started using and on that it is Caesars -- the correct way without an apostrophe.

    ... just some Caesars trivia.

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