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Thread: Playing "end" machines

  1. #1
    Years ago, slot managers of casinos would "seed" their floors with slot machines in high visibility areas to generate interest and to let handpays and jackpots be very visible to other players and passersby.

    This strategy changed a few years ago and now "loose slots" are placed deep in casinos forcing players to walk through much of the casino to get to them.

    This new strategy of making players walk deep into the casino also may mean that the loose slots are no longer on aisles and walkways.

    Still many players prefer to play machines in high visibility areas -- including machines at the end of rows and on walkways -- believing that these "end machines" are more likely to produce winners.

    Even some video poker players I've talked to tell me that they prefer to play "end machines" because they seem to be luckier.

    Personally, I don't believe that "end" video poker machines are any luckier than mid-row machines, but a funny thing happened this past weekend at Caesars:

    I hit two royals -- and both were on two different end machines. And I saw two more royals hit and both were on different end machines.

    For those of you familiar with Caesars, the machines I was playing were in the Palace casino in the area facing the men's room and ladies' room. This is the section of the casino that is between the "dome" main room, and the restaurants including Rao's and the buffet.

    There is one line of machines facing the wall with the restroom entrances. There is a walkway that bisects the line of machines, and it looks like this:

    XX xx xx xx XX WALKWAY XX xx xx xx XX

    The machines indicated by XX were the two machines that I hit my royals on. And note that the machine on the far right, which is closest to the office for the slot attendants, is the same machine that I hit a royal on at Caesars about a month ago, and I hit a royal on that same machine about a year ago.

    The capital Xs in bold type are the end machines where the royals hit.

  2. #2
    End machines are typically played more than inside machines. Note that they also comprised 40% of the machines in your disagram. Where I play they group machines in 3s making end machines 67% of the total machines. Doesn't seem to unusual to me.

  3. #3
    Alan: I have to admit I am skeptical that machines at the ends of rows are programmed to pay out more winning hands than machines in the middle. The paytables are the same, aren't they? I could see where this might be possible with slot machines since the payout of each individual machine is unknown.

    Having said this, I do like playing end machines more than ones in the middle strictly for comfort reasons. I can stretch my legs out a bit more, onto the aisle if necessary.

    I don't know if anyone remembers my old thread on "Biology and the RNG", but maybe it's possible that the physical comfort provided by end-row machines enables the player to press the button at a better time overall compared to the more uncomfortable middle machines? (ie. physical comfort contributes to positive mental attitude which subconsciously lends itself to better DEAL/DRAW button-press timing & better results)

  4. #4
    I took part in a study at the Illinois Institute of Technology to determine if the end machines did allow for better results. It was determined that the machines on the right end allowed for a smoother "Push" of the button with no impediments for a right handed player. Similar results were not achieved for left handed players on the left end machines due to the placement of the Deal/Draw button. Full results will be published after I am released from the Institute.

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by regnis View Post
    I took part in a study at the Illinois Institute of Technology to determine if the end machines did allow for better results. It was determined that the machines on the right end allowed for a smoother "Push" of the button with no impediments for a right handed player. Similar results were not achieved for left handed players on the left end machines due to the placement of the Deal/Draw button. Full results will be published after I am released from the Institute.
    Regnis: After carefully reading your post, I still wasn't 100% certain whether you were kidding. Even a series of very smooth button presses can lead to nothing but miserable hands.

    Just as Alan has extensively discussed dice influencing as being the "final legal frontier" for elevating one's craps game beyond mathematical expectation, I am simply saying that casual biological factors may have the ability to influence how often a VP player can draw winning hands (through aptly timed button presses) in ways that are not understood at this time....hence another "final legal frontier" for VP.

    Please note that I am not saying this would be the result of clairvoyance or ESP or some other far out, speculative mind trick.

    Just the manner in which a person mindlessly taps that tiny 1-inch by 1-inch square DEAL/DRAW button could have all sorts of influences on session results.

    Examples:
    ---Slam the button with the palm of your hand?
    ---Press one of the four corners of the button vs. the sides?
    ---Gently tap the button with a pencil?
    ---Pound the button with your fist?

    All sorts of weird empirical studies could be done here.

    When you account for all other factors such as correct strategic card holds and a perfectly random machine that functions normally, truly the final consideration as to whether your session will be an utterly miserable or a supremely joyous one lies within how you biologically interact with that tiny 1" x 1" square button...

  6. #6
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    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Now, "loose slots" are placed deep in casinos forcing players to walk through much of the casino to get to them.
    Look, Alan, today's machines are reprogramed on a daily basis. THEY can even turn those "on/off" by remote payout while watching the new guy play.

    People who strongly just think otherwise, well, just have zero idea. They also strongly believe in government, that they're being looked out for.

    And, become "tickled pink" about meaningless $10,000 wins. The casinos go on taking 1/3, 2/3, then all of our money, while we struggle to double up by a 1/100th over the years. Lol.

    If people only knew, they still wouldn't believe it. Today's casinos are run by different sorts of mobs, but mobs are mobs.

  7. #7
    Thomasclines you will have to provide more details about your last post. I have no idea what you're talking about.

  8. #8
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    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Thomasclines you will have to provide more details about your last post. I have no idea what you're talking about.
    Well, for starters, you can't predict which machines will pay off. Changes from day to day. Generally speaking, the machines which pay less will pay more when do hit.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by ThomasClines View Post
    Well, for starters, you can't predict which machines will pay off. Changes from day to day. Generally speaking, the machines which pay less will pay more when do hit.
    No surprise there. What else?

  10. #10
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    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    No surprise there. What else?
    There are a few novice tricks to the slot and video-poker machines, like using big bills in new machines (w/o a players' card). No harm in that. Better to arrange to use your card in many others' machines. That's quite a strategy in its own if you can figure it out.

    The pro's use the vendors' codes for repair, testing, and resetting; and electronic cheating devices. These things are expensive to acquire. A couple of legal tricks about determining which progressive machines are about to hit were discussed in a long slots thread at the Wizard of Vegas six months ago, but you have to know what you're doing to get away with it.

    As for the mob stuff... I've lived it. People haven't a clue about the civil legal freedoms and rights they abandon at the door of every casino. Casinos enjoy military installation exemptions. Eg, casino police aren't compelled to testify or evidence such goings on at any civil trial. Don't hold your breath at criminal proceedings either.

  11. #11
    Years ago at the Western there was a quarter7/5 bonus poker progressive on the back bartops with.5% meters running on the royal, 4 aces, small quads, generic quads and the straight flush. The word with the hired help was the end machine was the hottest for hitting the big hands. Everytime I went in the place to check the meters there would be some off duty employee playing the end machine no matter where the numbers were. They didn't know it but they were fullfulling their own prophecy. The end machine hit the most hands because it was the one getting, by far, the most action.

  12. #12
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    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    ... some off duty employee playing the end machine no matter where the numbers were. They didn't know it but they were fulfilling their own prophecy. The end machine hit the most hands because it was the one getting, by far, the most action.
    All of these inside jobs suffer the same logical flaw: Why didn't the employees own their own casinos by then?

  13. #13
    A long time ago, perhaps end machines really were "looser".

    However, this would be highly illegal today, and the casinos could get in big trouble for rigging VP machines to have odds different than what the paytable and random cards would dictate. It wouldn't be worth it to them, as they already have a guaranteed profit model with existing VP paytables, simply in that they are +EV for the house to where only lightly-played high limit machines could possibly beat them in a year's time.
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    A long time ago, perhaps end machines really were "looser".

    However, this would be highly illegal today, and the casinos could get in big trouble for rigging VP machines to have odds different than what the paytable and random cards would dictate. It wouldn't be worth it to them, as they already have a guaranteed profit model with existing VP paytables, simply in that they are +EV for the house to where only lightly-played high limit machines could possibly beat them in a year's time.
    Why do you insist on making believe you know everything about everything? Turns out Mr. Know-It-All didn't know more than the Subway clerk OR the supermarket supervisors. Now as you venture into the gambling world you continue to display such a low level of what vp machines mean to a casino's margin.

    That "existing profit model" you created--in most hi-limit machines, the hold is at a slightly higher margin and in Wynn's case at least (and Wynn has more hi-end vp machines than most casinos). The slightly better pay tables mean nothing. Those who mainly play the hi-limit games are not "AP's" or serious players. They're over-confident, pathological gambling lower limit jackpot winners, hi-rolling foreigners, and clueless sports figures and celebrities. This info came from a Wynn exec interview.

    Please wise up and do what you do best: tell stories of how you've been "mistreated" by blue collar workers and how you go to the ends of the earth to get them fired over toilet paper, tomatoes, and my favorite: gatorade

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Why do you insist on making believe you know everything about everything? Turns out Mr. Know-It-All didn't know more than the Subway clerk OR the supermarket supervisors. Now as you venture into the gambling world you continue to display such a low level of what vp machines mean to a casino's margin.

    That "existing profit model" you created--in most hi-limit machines, the hold is at a slightly higher margin and in Wynn's case at least (and Wynn has more hi-end vp machines than most casinos). The slightly better pay tables mean nothing. Those who mainly play the hi-limit games are not "AP's" or serious players. They're over-confident, pathological gambling lower limit jackpot winners, hi-rolling foreigners, and clueless sports figures and celebrities. This info came from a Wynn exec interview.

    Please wise up and do what you do best: tell stories of how you've been "mistreated" by blue collar workers and how you go to the ends of the earth to get them fired over toilet paper, tomatoes, and my favorite: gatorade
    How cute that Dante PM'd you material from my forum for you to use to troll me over here.

    Anyway, I don't know what you're jabbering on about the Wynn, nor do I really care.

    The bottom line is that the existing VP machines are fair, and therefore the odds of winning are dictated by the paytable and the paytable only. Thus, a 9-5 DDB machine on the end will be no "looser" than a 9-5 DDB machine within the inner area. Manufacturing these machines is a multibillion dollar business, and there's no way these companies would risk everything in order to sneak in illegal features. The casinos would also not risk this, especially given that these machines are basically a license to print money when they play fairly.

    It doesn't surprise me that you doubt the above, as your entire being and identity hinges upon a ludicrous claim that you can beat -EV machines over the long term through money management strategies and "special plays".

    You can keep trying to insult me, Rob. I'm not going to run away and cry. I've called out online liars and phonies since the '80s. The response I get is always predictable and similar. The phony tries to make a lot of noise and turn the focus back onto me, in order to drown out the facts presented against them.

    Rob, you're like 62 years old, right? When is it time to finally grow up? Here I am in my 40s, and I'm watching a guy old enough to be my father trying to troll internet forums like a 16-year-old on 4chan. It's really sad.
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    .......
    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    ......

    You guys deliver the chuckles, thank you! Thread has developing potential.

  17. #17
    And the really FUN part is watching Dan, a self-described failure in gambling, relationships, and inter-acting with the most basic hard working people on the planet, constantly rant over how he's been mistreated by this person or dissed by that company--and all the while, anyone who's not been blistered by this "loser's touch" finds themselves far under his skin.

    BTW Dan, with your poor aptitude for the game of vp, I never believed you had the resources to play enuf in order to attain 7-Stars anyway. Why don't you explain to us on THIS forum exactly how that anomaly happened anyway. Then maybe we'll see the REAL reason you aren't able to come up with the cash to be playing on trips to LV, and instead, have to bring a kid to the casinos while struggling to get everything comped. No wonder you made such a big deal out of Caesar's not handing you a free bottle of Gatorade.

    Learn from this lesson Dan. All your constant whining about "mistreatment" does is inadvertently expose you for what you really are.

  18. #18
    You guys really know how to twist up a storm, don't you?

    First of all I said in my original post I said:

    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Years ago, slot managers of casinos would "seed" their floors with slot machines in high visibility areas to generate interest and to let handpays and jackpots be very visible to other players and passersby.
    This is about SLOTS and NOT video poker. Slot machines can be manipulated to give more winners. Video poker machines, if fair, are not manipulated. And I wrote in my original post:


    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post

    Still many players prefer to play machines in high visibility areas -- including machines at the end of rows and on walkways -- believing that these "end machines" are more likely to produce winners.

    Even some video poker players I've talked to tell me that they prefer to play "end machines" because they seem to be luckier.

    Personally, I don't believe that "end" video poker machines are any luckier than mid-row machines,
    And then I went on to discuss how the end machines were hitting royals which I think might be for two reasons:

    1. coincidence
    2. players prefer end machines, which Arc pointed out

    My observation does not have anything to do with end video poker machines being more likely to hit. If anything, they are just played more. The more a video poker machine is played the more likely it will show a royal.

    At Rincon for example, there are five (or maybe it's six) video poker machines tied to its $5 progressive. I have seen a royal on every one of those machines over the years.

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by Count Room View Post
    Regnis: After carefully reading your post, I still wasn't 100% certain whether you were kidding. Even a series of very smooth button presses can lead to nothing but miserable hands.

    Just as Alan has extensively discussed dice influencing as being the "final legal frontier" for elevating one's craps game beyond mathematical expectation, I am simply saying that casual biological factors may have the ability to influence how often a VP player can draw winning hands (through aptly timed button presses) in ways that are not understood at this time....hence another "final legal frontier" for VP.

    Please note that I am not saying this would be the result of clairvoyance or ESP or some other far out, speculative mind trick.

    Just the manner in which a person mindlessly taps that tiny 1-inch by 1-inch square DEAL/DRAW button could have all sorts of influences on session results.

    Examples:
    ---Slam the button with the palm of your hand?
    ---Press one of the four corners of the button vs. the sides?
    ---Gently tap the button with a pencil?
    ---Pound the button with your fist?

    All sorts of weird empirical studies could be done here.

    When you account for all other factors such as correct strategic card holds and a perfectly random machine that functions normally, truly the final consideration as to whether your session will be an utterly miserable or a supremely joyous one lies within how you biologically interact with that tiny 1" x 1" square button...
    Count,

    This subject of biological interaction is very interesting to me. I'm not saying I believe or not, just that I have an open mind. Ever notice someone angrily slapping the button leave a winner? I haven't. I'll even go out on a limb and say I bet Alan didn't angrily slap the button on any of his royals. No negativity, just positive energy.

  20. #20
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    Originally Posted by dannyj View Post
    No negativity, just positive energy.
    More winners on full moons. Proved fact. Really. Lol.

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