Hot Rolls and Craps Ettiquette

[dannyj]

Not taking sides here. But, as a long time craps player, I have never seen anyone color up DURING a hot roll.

[Count Room]

Not taking sides here. But, as a long time craps player, I have never seen anyone color up DURING a hot roll.

How many points need to be rolled without a 7-out before a shooter's roll is considered "hot"?

Where is the demarcation line drawn before it becomes rude to color up?

[Alan Mendelson]

You should never color up unless the last shooter has sevened out and the dealers are clearing chips off the table. If any shooter has the dice you wait.

A hot roll is ANY roll without a seven out. But most players would call a hand "hot" after 20 throws because that's rare.

[Count Room]

You should never color up unless the last shooter has sevened out and the dealers are clearing chips off the table. If any shooter has the dice you wait.

A hot roll is ANY roll without a seven out. But most players would call a hand "hot" after 20 throws because that's rare.

About 15 years ago I sauntered up to a craps table at the Golden Nugget (downtown Vegas) very late at night and plunked down $40 playing the pass line with odds and placing points. I kept pressing my bets because of my hot luck with making points. Occasionally I would seven out, but would repeat the process all over again and still remain hot even during the next series of dice shoots. I walked out with about $1,800 or so.

I was alone at the table. If the stickman had passed the dice to another shooter (which was impossible at the time), it would have interfered with my generally hot luck since I was rolling sevens at a lower frequency than normal.

Maybe it's rude for the stickman to change to the next shooter after a hot roller finally sevens out? Just because the shooter doesn't roll a flawless series without sevens doesn't mean he couldn't be very lucrative to bet with at the time. From what I can tell, all that's really needed is a lower frequency of 7's than normal.

[Alan Mendelson]

From what I can tell, all that's really needed is a lower frequency of 7's than normal.

This is only partially correct. What you really want is for the 7s to show up at the "right time." You want 7s to show up on the come-out roll. If you could throw a dozen sevens in a row on the "come out" you could make a fortune. What you don't want is for 7s to show up after a "point" is established.

[Alan Mendelson]

Maybe it's rude for the stickman to change to the next shooter after a hot roller finally sevens out?

The procedure in the game is for the stickman to offer the dice to the next player, going clockwise, after the previous shooter sevens out. The next clockwise player is not obligated to accept the dice to shoot next. I have been at tables where all the players "passed" on accepting the dice so that the "same shooter" could roll again.

[Count Room]

This is only partially correct. What you really want is for the 7s to show up at the "right time." You want 7s to show up on the come-out roll. If you could throw a dozen sevens in a row on the "come out" you could make a fortune. What you don't want is for 7s to show up after a "point" is established.

Sure, Alan, I understand all that. I have a good grasp of the rules in craps, but if someone has a really hot roll making all kinds of points before sevening out wouldn't it be rude or jarring to have the stickman pass the dice to the next shooter?

I have to wonder if perfect craps etiquette would be having all the others present at the table agree to simply pass the dice right back to the shooter that finally sevens out after shooting 15+ points, just to see if he can do it again....

[Alan Mendelson]

I have to wonder if perfect craps etiquette would be having all the others present at the table agree to simply pass the dice right back to the shooter that finally sevens out after shooting 15+ points, just to see if he can do it again....

15+ points or 15+ numbers? There is a difference.

The procedural rules for craps is for the dice to move clockwise, just as the dealers button in poker moves clockwise. As I mentioned above it's up to the next player in line to decide if they want the dice or if they choose to pass.

What makes you think a shooter who just made 15+ points would even want the dice back? If I made 15 points at a $25 table betting full 3x, 4x, 5x odds, I would have made $2,625 not counting what I would have also made hitting "numbers" in between the points. If I hit just ONE number between points it would be an additional profit of $490 for a total profit of $3,115 less my initial outlay which (depending on the point) would have been as little as $235.

That would have been a net profit of $2,880 and I would have been running to the cage with those chips.

And if a Fire Bet were involved, it is likely that with 15 points made, six might be different points meaning a $10 fire bet would return an additional $10,000. Now, would you expect me to shoot again?

[Count Room]

15+ points or 15+ numbers? There is a difference.

The procedural rules for craps is for the dice to move clockwise, just as the dealers button in poker moves clockwise. As I mentioned above it's up to the next player in line to decide if they want the dice or if they choose to pass.

What makes you think a shooter who just made 15+ points would even want the dice back? If I made 15 points at a $25 table betting full 3x, 4x, 5x odds, I would have made $2,625 not counting what I would have also made hitting "numbers" in between the points. If I hit just ONE number between points it would be an additional profit of $490 for a total profit of $3,115 less my initial outlay which (depending on the point) would have been as little as $235.

That would have been a net profit of $2,880 and I would have been running to the cage with those chips.

And if a Fire Bet were involved, it is likely that with 15 points made, six might be different points meaning a $10 fire bet would return an additional $10,000. Now, would you expect me to shoot again?

Alan: You're right, I wasn't clear enough. I meant to say "numbers" instead of "points".

I wouldn't mind backing your shooting again if you had a hot roll like that. Let me put it this way: Would you back a proven COLD shooter? It can't hurt to continue betting with someone who has been running hot. Even in terms of math it's a neutral decision at its worst.

EDIT: Alan, if you are at the same table as I am and you roll lots of numbers, I would want to pass the dice back to you after you seven-out ASSUMING you wanted to stay and not cash out. I would consider this polite common sense.

[Alan Mendelson]

There is nothing wrong with passing the dice back to a shooter who has been hitting numbers, and it's done all the time. But it's not something which comes under the banner of "craps ettiquette."

[Alan Mendelson]

There is something else I'd like to bring up: entering the game during a shooter's hand. We've all seen this -- a shooter has the dice, and is rolling lots of numbers, when a new player walks up to the table and throws in his cash to buy chips. It's another violation of craps etiquette. The theory is that when a new player buys into the game it disturbs the rhythm of the game or distracts the players and shooter and breaks the concentration of everyone and errors can follow.

These errors are not like "a seven out" but they can be real errors as to placing bets, paying bets, and remembering what bets belong where on the layout. I've seen stickmen push the dice to the wrong player after a new player buys into the game and delays the game.

Of course there is that superstition that when a new player does buy in, the 7 or devil will show.

If you must buy in before a 7 out, buy in when the shooter makes his point and the dealers are paying the passline bets. That is a good point of entry.

[regnis]

Alan: You're right, I wasn't clear enough. I meant to say "numbers" instead of "points".

I wouldn't mind backing your shooting again if you had a hot roll like that. Let me put it this way: Would you back a proven COLD shooter? It can't hurt to continue betting with someone who has been running hot. Even in terms of math it's a neutral decision at its worst.

EDIT: Alan, if you are at the same table as I am and you roll lots of numbers, I would want to pass the dice back to you after you seven-out ASSUMING you wanted to stay and not cash out. I would consider this polite common sense.

In the day I often rolled several consecutive times because the whole table said "pass the dice" so I could shoot again. But there is a fatigue and loss of concentration that sets in and while I was comfortable rolling a second time, the third never worked and I would refuse the dice.

But you also have to differentiate between the random shooter who got lucky and will never have another good roll, and someone who attempts some degree of dice control and may be able to duplicate the good roll. I have a friend with whom I have played craps for 30 years. During that time he has had one good roll and usually doesn't take the dice anymore unless everyone else is equally bad.

[dannyj]

How many points need to be rolled without a 7-out before a shooter's roll is considered "hot"?

Where is the demarcation line drawn before it becomes rude to color up?

To me, it is not the amount points one makes, but rather, the amount of "paying numbers" that matter. I generally place all the even numbers (with all the hardways) along with pass line and odds. Once I recoup my outlay I'll add the 5&9. I guess I'd agree with Alan's take on about 20 rolls being hot, but that would be a minimum number. But really, the term "hot" is relative. I could be killing it with even number hardway hits, accompanied with aggressive presses and the guy next to me just has a pass line bet waiting to be hit. Is the table hot to him? Or, the guy in the corner betting don't come getting his DC bets picked off one by one.

To the question of when is it rude to color during a roll, I would say, always. Could not imagine anyone putting columns of chips down on the layout during a hot roll and saying "color please". If someone has an issue and has to color up during a roll that is their prerogative, I just have never seen that before.