Use cash before free play?

[Alan Mendelson]

A friend told me he is saving his Total Rewards Reward Credits to buy free play during New Years weekend. But in the meantime he is going to casinos now and using cash to play. Does it make sense to save his RCs abd free play while he gambles with cash out of pocket?

[Dan Druff]

No, it makes zero sense. Also, I hope your friend is Seven Stars, or he will get a terrible exchange rate on his RCs.

[Nash]

No, it makes zero sense. Also, I hope your friend is Seven Stars, or he will get a terrible exchange rate on his RCs.

Dan,

Assuming he is Seven Stars, why do you say it makes zero sense? What is the difference if you cash them out now or save them and cash them out for New Years regardless if you use them for meals or free play? Personally I would rather let my RC's build a little, cash them out for free play allowing me a bigger bankroll to play and possibly even play higher limits.

[Alan Mendelson]

I've been thinking about this one line:

What is the difference if you cash them out now or save them and cash them out for New Years regardless if you use them for meals or free play?

This is really the truth. What difference does it make?

The only difference -- and this might be a stretch -- is if without warning Caesars files for bankruptcy or changes the value of the reward credits. In which case "banking" the reward credits creates a risk.

But if you think there is no danger as to the value then it makes no difference if you play them now or later.

[Dan Druff]

Dan,

Assuming he is Seven Stars, why do you say it makes zero sense? What is the difference if you cash them out now or save them and cash them out for New Years regardless if you use them for meals or free play? Personally I would rather let my RC's build a little, cash them out for free play allowing me a bigger bankroll to play and possibly even play higher limits.

I can't see why anyone would ever choose cash over existing freeplay. At best it will be a neutral swap, and at worst you will really get screwed.

Here are some ways you can get screwed by "holding" your freeplay until later and using cash instead:

- CET goes bankrupt and RCs get wiped

- CET changes redemption exchange rate for RCs-to-freeplay (this is VERY possible, btw)

- You get sick/injured (or other life emergency) and cannot make it out to a CET property for 6 months, and your RCs expire

- You die

There's just no upside to holding them. You can always supplement freeplay with cash, so if you're willing to spend $500 cash now and use $500 freeplay later, why not just use $500 freeplay now and hold that $500 cash for gambling later? There's no way you can come out behind by doing this!

Let me put it a different way.

Let's say I own a restaurant called "Druff's House", and I give you $50 in Dan Druff Fun Bucks which can be used for $50 of food at my restaurant.

You come into my restaurant today and order $50 of food. Would it EVER make sense to pay cash for it, when you can instead use your Fun Bucks and get it for free? NO. You're just taking a totally unnecessary risk by doing so.

Can someone tell me the upside of holding RCs and spending cash instead?

Nash said, "I would rather let me RCs build a little, cash them out for freeplay, allowing me a bigger bankroll to play and possibly even higher limits". Huh?? You can do THE SAME THING with the cash you are spending on those same games today. Just bank the cash instead of the RCs!

[FABismonte]

Let's say I own a restaurant called "Druff's House", and I give you $50 in Dan Druff Fun Bucks which can be used for $50 of food at my restaurant.

You come into my restaurant today and order $50 of food. Would it EVER make sense to pay cash for it, when you can instead use your Fun Bucks and get it for free? NO. You're just taking a totally unnecessary risk by doing so.

I do not like to trust any business to hold my money (or equivalent) based on an unsecured promise to perform later. In the first week of last November, my wife purchased a pre-paid package of beauty treatments from a beauty-care company with over 100 stores all over the USA. One week later the store she went to was shuttered. A Google search I subsequently undertook produced a press release that the company filed for bankruptcy, let it employees suddenly go, and had alleged it had only $50,000 in assets but $10 million in debts. We will never get the money back as a unsecured creditor.

Moral of the story? I guess you can figure it out.

FAB

[Aaron]

We will never get the money back as a unsecured creditor.

If you used a credit card do a charge back. All credit cards allow it in the case of bankruptcy.

[Aaron]

I hold my free play and uses it all in one trip. When you cash RC's for free-play it counts against that trip as comps.

If I hold it and use it on a later trip I can maximize my theo and receive more discretionary comps.

It will be public info when the BK is filed and you will have a few days to use any questionable comps that you are worried about.

I don't think any Trustee, Bk Judge or Receiver would change the comp system. They are there to preserve the value of assets and the gamblers are the corporations most valuable assets.

Any changes to us will likely be after the BK is resolved.

[Alan Mendelson]

Another question: does it make sense to save Reward Credits to pay for dinners, etc. in Vegas while using cash first to gamble? Let's assume the player is a 7 Stars and getting the best conversion rate.

Personally, in all cases, I would use "reward credits" first whether its for play or to pay for meals, etc. My thinking: why use your own money first?

[carolinajacket]

I never use my money when I have free play. On our last trip to New Orleans we played two days without ever using our money.

[Aaron]

Alan

Have you ever asked your host for your theo after a trip to Vegas? At your level of play you should be receiving back end comps.

[Alan Mendelson]

Aaron what do you mean by "back end comps" and what level of play is needed? My level of play is not tbat high.

[regnis]

Many times over the years I've felt like I got back ended after a Vegas trip.

[Vegas_lover]

Back end comps are comps you additionally receive at the end of your trip. You can go to the players desk (or see your host) and see if there are any charges you've made to your room they can comp. For example, you charged some drinks at the pool to your room, or you had a nice dinner. They can look at the total costs charged to your room, than look at your play and decide to comp you (part) of this costs and as additional comp.

[Aaron]

You can receive 25% - 35% of your theoretical loss in comps.

My last trip was 2 nights (these numbers are approximate):

Booked an offer for $1,200 FP and 2 Bedroom Panorama Suite at Planet Hollywood.
Played just over 20,000 TC before bonus.
I play both slots and VP this trip however was mostly VP 75%
Coin in was 150K VP and 25k slots.
The VP theo was probable 4% so 150k x 4% = $6,000 loss I should have had.
The slot theo was probably 10% so 25k x 10% = $2,500

So my theo for the trip was $8,500 (The amount I should have lost)

The room and upfront freeplay counted only $767 to my comps. (this needs a whole explanation on its own)
I bought about $750 in freeplay from my RC's (When you use your RC's on a trip they are actually counted as comps, even though you have already earned them)
They will use (steal) any RC's you have before you can have back-end comps applied.
I will use all convert all my RC's to free play before I see my host.

So I had a total of $8,500 (theo) x 35% = 2975 available for comps on this trip.

767 Room & Free-play
750 Purchased Free-play
1500 in room charges (shopping, shows and food)

$3017 in comps for the trip.


FYI I actually came home ahead about $1,000 this weekend, because of 2 Royals and 3 A's w/kickers. Also bought about 5k in giftcards from the GGWU.

[timspeed]

You can receive 25% - 35% of your theoretical loss in comps.
Booked an offer for $1,200 FP and 2 Bedroom Panorama Suite at Planet Hollywood.
The room and upfront freeplay counted only $767 to my comps. (this needs a whole explanation on its own)

Damn, I would have thought they charged your comp account more than that, for a 2-bdrm Panoramic!
I'm wondering if I had a theo of $1000, if they'd comp some food off at the end (staying at Bally's Jubilee of course)

[Alan Mendelson]

Aaron I am no where close to your level of play.

[Aaron]

Aaron I am no where close to your level of play.

Alan

The level of play is not my point. If you are at a level of play to warrant a host you should be keeping track of your theo and using all available comps when staying in Vegas.

Your room and upfront free-play is not valued at 100%. You can see above they valued my $1,200 in free-play and 2 nights in a 2 bedroom suite at only $767. There is more available for back-end (discresionary) comps.

[Alan Mendelson]

Aaron, I can't remember paying anything out of pocket except for tips. My regular comps cover everything. I guess my play matches my expenses.

I play only a fraction of what you play. A "big trip" for me is putting on 5000 tier points -- I don't get snywhere near 20-thousand.

So what am I missing?

[Aaron]

I assume "My regular comps cover everything" means RC's earned at Rincon or the $500 gift cards.

All that I am saying is that you should not have to use RC's earned at Rincon to pay for dinners in Vegas. With 5000 tier points earned in Vegas you only receive $50 worth of RC's.

People in general seem to be afraid of hosts. Hosts are sells people and make money from our Vegas visits. Everyone should ask a host for their stats on play and theo to make sure they are receiving what they deserve.

And if your host will not provide that info you should find a new host. I have had a few friends that have had that problem with their hosts.

The reason I am posting this info is because there are a lot of people being under comped. I was for over 4 years. I joined your board and many others to find out how to get the comps I deserved.